R15 fiberglass insulation, does it exist
I can not figure this out, and am hoping for some insight. With the push to be more energy consciences why is R-15 fiber glass not on every Lumber yard-Box store shelf?
I have used it in the past and we could get into a whole argument as to other types are better ie. spray foam etc. But from a fiberglass to fiberglass standpoint isn’t R-15 better then R-11 or R-13.
Is cost per square foot that much more it is not viable, and if it is cost does it come down to economics of scale alone, more 13 is made so it is cheaper? Lowes in my area a long time ago had it in stock, and for a brief time before Christmas HD had it but I did not need it when I went back the next week it was gone. I am always told “we can special order it”.
Do you find it in your area? Do you use it? I find that since it is so dense it is easier to cut install etc. If any one is in the manufacturing end of it your insight is greatly appreciated.
Wallyo
Replies
I find it.
I've used it.
I usually have small--remodel--areas to do and sometimes if I want more density in 2x4 walls I'll buy R19 and pack it in, or pull off a layer. 'bout the same cost as R15 if I recall.
pack R-19 into a 4 inch wall and get an R value of 3? Not sure it is R, but packing distroys insultation valve.
Compression does not Distroy R-value.Typically you don't get the face value, but it is higher than what uncompressed is.I have seen test, but off hand don't remember the exact numbers.R-19 FG in a 4" bay would probably be around R-13..
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A-holes. Hey every group has to have one. And I have been elected to be the one. I should make that my tagline.
R-19 FG in a 4" bay would probably be around R-13
So the R-19 is destroyed. If you are spliting hair, it is massively degraded. Why pay for 19 to get 13? I guess YOU mght like to do it if you don't think it distroys the valve or don't like money.
Insulation compression
Bill I think you are confused. If compression doesn't destroy R-value, and gets you a higher R-value than uncompressed, why would R-19 insulation in a 2x4 wall only produce an R-13? You do understand the principal of 'loft' pertaining to R-value,....right?
Four year old thread.
Then why is R15 denser than R13? Both Fiberglass batts for 4" wall.
Waters, 15 denser than 13? Well, is it? If denser is better why not buy four R15 batts and cram them all in the bay to give you R60? Well, I will tell you, you will not get 60 or 15. Wood is denser than FG and yet it has a lower R value. Why do you suppose that is?
I'm not claiming to know enough about insulating to have any kind of credibility but I've used R13 and R15.
R15 seems to me to be nothing more than more fiberglass in the same space.
If it is not, then I'd like to be educated on that point.
Waters, I don't know how they make R 15 and R 13 and both only 3 1/2 inches thick either. Good question. I just know that "they" say you lessen the insulating value (or valve for the bipolar tyrad parties) by compressing FG. And really this makes sense. FG is all about trapped air, compress it and you have less trapped air.
DoRight,i'm so confused by the "friendly banter" I don't' even know what the question was?Is it none vs R11 Vs R13? In general, some insulation is better than none, more is better up to a point.Insulation that preforms the best as installed is the best unless the cost is crazy.Comfort level is hard to but a value on.Spray foam, sips and ICF's are a good value in the long term. R11 glass is the best value if it is what you can afford while your building. R15 is harder to justify due to the much higher price per sq ft.Cellulose is a good option that can be done with a little time and skill. (time is the problem when production building) It's all relative,Garett
Grott, Well I guess we are even I don't even know what your answer is. Or to what or why or . . . Huuu?
Grott, Friendly banter? Why . . why, what would you expect? I only ask if you are an Ahole or bipolar if you (preverbial) have a mental tyraid-meltdown over a misspelled word. I mean really, get a life. I think medication is superior to meltdowns, and would strongly suggest it to those sufferring from such. Well . . . , ok if you are an arrogant one bragging on about being God-like and being able to leave OSB in the rain for four years, vs the rest of us mear mortals, then I might also have a word or too to say. LOL. HAve a great day.
hee hee
Dudley said mear.
be a mear Sphere smear
Peace full.
Yes I used it.
Certainteed and Johns Mansville makes it.
I had to special order it down here cuz no one stocks it.
Cost me at least double if not more, than r-13
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"If you come to a fork in the road, take it"
The local Menards stores here in Omaha carry it. I've used some. Seemed to me to be just like the R-13.
You see that is what I am getting at why does it need to be "special ordered"?
Can't say.
I can say what is wierd about down here is that most of all the supplies I have seen, and delivered is faced. Go figure.
So nothing surprises me on special orders, standard stock etc.
I can't even get 1x3's without special ordering!
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"If you come to a fork in the road, take it"
what I am getting at why does it need to be "special ordered"?
Because the big box stores use National buyers for all of the stocked products. On the Buyer's spreadsheet, there's a line item for 3.5" batts, another for 5.5", and a third for 12"--the buyer then goes and multiplies nn rolls per yy of shelf per qq stores, then beats up the suppliers to see who will shave 0.25¢ or 0.5¢ per unit off the price to get the whole order.
Buyer does not care what is right, or what ought to be done. The Buyer cares about scoring a price reduction which he gets back as a commission for making the sale.
As far as the Buyer is concerned, any single customer is far too small to even blip on his radar. Couple dozen cistomers, even.
Oh, and there's the "well it's here, let's use it" factor, too. So, the product moves, even if only by default. You'd likely need an entire state to stop buying R13 to get a big box's attention.Occupational hazard of my occupation not being around (sorry Bubba)
Because the big box stores use National buyers for all of the stocked products.
Its not just the big boxes. I went to all local distributers in my area for Johns Mansville and/or Certainteed within reason.
Guess what?
R-15 all special order. -----------------------------------------------------------------------------
"If you come to a fork in the road, take it"
why does it need to be "special ordered"?Same reason that most builders aren't building energy star and vehicles that get 12 mpg are still selling like hot cakes. The American public isn't ready to believe in the energy crises yet. Politicians will continue to do whatever it takes to keep the price of fuel artificially low and Americans are not likely to buy into energy conservation until they absolutely have to. Why do people expect solar energy sales people to do a pay back calculation that assumes that the solar panel has no value at the end of the payback period rather than assumes that the panel is worth the same or more when it is seven years old and the price of propane is six dollars a gallon? Why indeed? ------------------
"You cannot work hard enough to make up for a sloppy estimate."
Just an interesting article; Energy SaversIt's fiberglass versus cellulose in the battle of the green insulation products.http://www.ebuild.com/articles/506597.hwxIt seems to me when R13 hit the market it did not take too long for it to replace R11. Yet I have known of R15 for about 5+ years. and it is still not too prevelent.Wallyo
Edited 1/21/2008 5:28 pm ET by wallyo
at least 10 years ago we were still using FG.... and it was all R15 unfaced with a 6 mil poly vapor barrrier... then we discovered cellulose and never used FG againMike Smith Rhode Island : Design / Build / Repair / Restore
Mike, does cellulose settle in the wall, thus leaving a gap at the top of the wall?
if it's installed at less than it's settled density, then it will settle
if it's installed at a higher density , then it can't
what's with all this aggressive posting ?
Mike Smith Rhode Island : Design / Build / Repair / Restore
Edited 1/22/2008 7:23 pm ET by MikeSmith
Mike, thanks for the reply. I was familar with blown cellulose, but not the wet-in-wall kind. My understanding now is that it sticks in the bay.
As for agressive posting. I have no idea, ask those who originate it. And please Mike don't mispell a word in a post. If you do, you will be on the receiving end of this horse's A. Simple as that. Go figure. Some never grow-up.
"Same reason that most builders aren't building energy star and vehicles that get 12 mpg are still selling like hot cake"Only half the reason is the "energy crisis", the stupid pay back period is the other half.R-15 cost twice as much as R-13 and R-13 is 25% more than R-11.
The new Diesel that gets 20mpg takes fuel that is now more than reg gas and cost $5000 more than the same truck that drinks regular unleaded at a rate of 13pmg. The pay back just isn't worth the up front cost. Garett
Grott When you say r15 costs more is that in stock off the shelf or via special order in your area?Wallyo
S.O. in most places.It is usualy marked up the same % as the stock R13 by my salesman. So price is not realy effected by being special order as long as it comes with the stock order. (no freight)
<<Only half the reason is the "energy crisis", the stupid pay back period is the other half.>>Fair enough but what is the payback period of a granite counter top? We see homes as investments and look for them to appreciate in value over time. What will the value of a house with R-13 insulation be compared to energy star level when the cost of fuel is double what it is today? If you drive a new truck that gets 13 miles per gallon what will gas at $4.50 a gallon do to that investment? I've been an energy star builder for five or six years now and my phone is still ringing. What is the payback on that?------------------"You cannot work hard enough to make up for a sloppy estimate."
Edited 1/21/2008 10:12 pm ET by ShelterNerd
What will the value of a house with R-13 insulation be compared to energy star level when the cost of fuel is double what it is today?
What will my $5000 which I saved by not insulating my house better be worth in ten years? $10,000 to $15,000, in my case, long after I flipped the house. The difference is I will still ahve the $15,000.
Your preaching to the choir here, but money is tight in our area. If it's not a 450K plus custom it's a 89K modular.I personaly built a Sip home with a mod con boiler and an air thight wood stove that heats the whole shebang. I hate when the LP driver has to top us off.I would personaly spend the dollars on insulation and the building envelope first...heck I did I still have laminate tops and a cheap vanity in the bathroom. Garett
You are 100% right. Look at the people buying hybrids. Never mind that we pay 3 or 4 or 5 thousand more for a car. And never mind that we need a new $3000 battery every 5 to 7 years. I can avoid the extra $400 annual outlay of gas. I tmakes no sense (YET). People do this with foam insultion, $40,000 photocell systems, etc. God Bless em, but they are Warren Buffet in the finance departmetn.
So ShelterNerd, are you happy with your $40,000 Solar Cell system in your house? Ah . . you do have one right? Afterall the payback is so great on those systems, right?
wallyo,
Ahh Fiberglas!
you are aware of the limitations of Fiberglas aren't you? I mean Fiberglas when it get's wet has an R value of zero!
plus unlike cellulose if you dense pack it the R value doesn't go up.
You are aware for example that furnace filters are often made of fiberglas because it flows air so well aren't you?
Finally when they test fiberglas for R rating they test it under labratory conditions.. perfectly dry and at 70 degrees. No wind..
In northern climates fiberglas due to it's nature will scrub heat off The inside of the wall(heated side) is at say 70 degrees the outside is at say 10 below or whatever.. Cold air settles warm air rises.. you have a furnace filter to hold heat and the cold air settles at the bottom untill it's warmed up by the heat which rises and cycles around inside the stud bay.. scrub the warm air off on the way up and bring the cold air in on the way down.. all that slows down the transfer is a furnace filter..
Frenchy Yes, know all of that, but as I said fiberglass to fiberglass. Lets not add in cellouse, foam, cotton, bubble warp,any thing else just on a fiberglass to fiberglass basis.
Say I am a box store weekend remolder (which i am not, this is my livlyhood). I subbed out concrete for my 10x12 addition for the new baby's room in Seattle on my 1200 sf house. My brother in law framed it with me on weekends, he works as a trim carpenter but agreed to help me keep down costs and all that.
Now this weekend I want to isulate it with the misses. I read about r-15 she is worried about keeping it cool in the summer warm in the winter for the little tike. I go to buy r-15 and cannot find it anywhere on the shelf. Why?Wallyo
wallyo,
Fiberglas's only saving grace is it can be easily installed by the D-I-Y types however they need to know they are getting something inferior..
That's differant because a D-I-Y can do as nice work as a professional on virtually every task.
To use foam for a D-I-Y you have to start at the beginning and use either SIP's or ICF's In my case I found that I saved enough by using both systems that I could add timbers..
I'll be honest and admit my numbers are a few years out of date. they don't reflect $100 a barrel oil but oil prices affect fiberglas too.
You do know that a fiberglas tub will hold water, right? :)
"You do know that a fiberglas tub will hold water, right? "Sure it will hold water.But try filling it up with air. Won't work. the water is too dense and the air won't stay in it..
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A-holes. Hey every group has to have one. And I have been elected to be the one. I should make that my tagline.
Shows how little you know.
Take a tiger torch and heat the bottom of that tub untill the water starts boiling, then see how much air is in the water.
:)
rich1
the fiberglas isn't holding the water, the fiberglas is backing up the gell coat and resin which is holding water.. ;-)
So that means it is really the glue used in the filters that stops the air.
HMMMMMMMMMMMMMMM...................... increase the glue and get better insulation?
rich1
However, glue has a low R value so what you really need is foam.. ;-)
Yes, and a Honda is inferior to a Porche and people buy Hondas everyday. Why do you suppose that is? Well, the answer is obvious to most everyone with half a wit. So since you don't, ask anyone.
frenchyOff the subject here but:
My furnace filters are pleated paper air flows through them, paper is cellouse is it not?
Edited 1/18/2008 3:40 pm ET by wallyo
wallyo
Yes you can upgrade to cellouse for your filter, however if you speak to furnace repairmen they tell me that they get less airflow thru them than thru fiberglas. Yes cellouse flows air but the denser the pack the slower the air flow..
Hey frenchy, That statement about the convection current within the stud bay is bull. Piffin and I went around on this one and it all comes from a misquote of a study done on blown attic insulation. FG may not be the best $ investment long term but it does NOT have a convection loop happen through it in stud bays.
They can't get your Goat if you don't tell them where it is hidden.
"That statement about the convection current within the stud bay is bull."I'd like to hear the arguments on that one. Actually, the gravity induced currents in loose-blown fiberglass attic insulation comes from the increasing instability of having heavy cold air over lighter warm air below. At a certain density difference (temperature difference - about 25 F in the source paper), the instability results in the sinking of the cold air and rising warm air.In a vertical wall cavity, there is no need to get over a critical density difference, so the effect should be more pronounced. Air next to the sheathing will be more dense (winter operation) than next to the sheetrock. At 70 degrees difference, this gets to almost 15%. There definitely will be sinking of cold air and rising of warmer air, starting at any difference in temperature. Simple physics. The fiberglass batts don't stop this convective flow well. The more dense batts will block it somewhat more than the lighter ones, but it takes close packing of the particles, as with dense packed cellulose, to really block that convective flow.OK, arguments to the contrary, please. Let's air both sides.
Dick , I don't remember the thread this was discussed in. Your opening statement however is one of those claims that is suspect. What is your source paper? I know I read something similar on a "Foam " website proclaiming the superiority of foam over fiberglass. Following the links from that Foam site and reading everything I could find about it all led to one study in which the test showed that fiberglass installed in attics where wind could create a current over the top of it was the item that was found to have created the myth of the convective current. The upshot was that even a small a remedial action as blowing cellulose or high density FB in on top of the fiberglass cut the convective current to almost negligible amounts IIRC.. I am not claiming any thing about fiberglass in terms of it's insulation qualities other than that one claim about it is not true. It is a partial quote used out of context by manufactures of other insulation products to sell their product as superior. In other words it is a lie.
They can't get your Goat if you don't tell them where it is hidden.
Dick , One other item . Try to find a test or results of a test that show anything about convective currents in FG wall cavities. The hypothesis was that there should be some as a result of the attic tests, but in fact when tested the walls showed little or none.
They can't get your Goat if you don't tell them where it is hidden.
dove.. all of those tests were made..
but Owens -Corning had them all destroyed and the heating engineers were shipped to one of Cheny's camps in East AstoriaMike Smith Rhode Island : Design / Build / Repair / Restore
UH-HUH. Well that certainly explains the situation. Must have joined those engineers with the 100 mpg. carburetors. ;-)
They can't get your Goat if you don't tell them where it is hidden.
Go to advanced search and search on my name.I found some reports by DOE.One of them was testing for the affects of voids in walls.
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A-holes. Hey every group has to have one. And I have been elected to be the one. I should make that my tagline.
http://forums.taunton.com/tp-breaktime/messages?msg=95096.74
From: BillHartmann Oct-1 11:24 am
To: Piffin (74 of 101)
95096.74 in reply to 95096.73 Well hold on to that convincing stick.All of the references that I found was about LOW DENSITY LOOSE FILL FG in attics. And the report that I posted shows some improvements by covering the open surface of the FG reducing convective currents.And I had problem finding anything on walls, but kept common up with the R value of FG drops at cold temp without giving any references other than the test on low density attic fill.Finally found this.http://www.arkansasedc.com/energy/files/Clearinghouse/Thermal%20Shorts.pdfIt is; "How Thermal Shorts and Insulation Flaws Can Degrade an ôR-19ö Stud Wall to a Measly ôR-11ö"Copy and paste was so bad that I will rephrase it.They tested a wall assembly with poor installed bats with rounded corners and voild around wires. Now they did find a reduction in whole wall R values by those flaws.But then the specifically tested for convective looses caused by the rounded corners where it was placed in the stud bay. Tested at 100* inside and 20* outside. Very little affect.So they not only had the potential of the convection in the bats, but also the vertical air chambers where the bats where not fluffed up in the corners.So it appears that PART of the limitation of FG is has been overstated and is limited to open face, low density attic fill.However, FG bats still has the problems of getting it installed without void and that, by it'self, does not do anything to control infiltration or moisture movement that other insulation can help with.It is based on the Oak Ridge testing of full wall assemblies.http://www.ornl.gov/sci/roofs+walls/research/detailed_papers/Whole_Wall_Therm/index.html
From: BillHartmann Oct-1 11:24 am
To: Piffin (74 of 101)
95096.74 in reply to 95096.73 Well hold on to that convincing stick.All of the references that I found was about LOW DENSITY LOOSE FILL FG in attics. And the report that I posted shows some improvements by covering the open surface of the FG reducing convective currents.And I had problem finding anything on walls, but kept common up with the R value of FG drops at cold temp without giving any references other than the test on low density attic fill.Finally found this.http://www.arkansasedc.com/energy/files/Clearinghouse/Thermal%20Shorts.pdfIt is; "How Thermal Shorts and Insulation Flaws Can Degrade an ôR-19ö Stud Wall to a Measly ôR-11ö"Copy and paste was so bad that I will rephrase it.They tested a wall assembly with poor installed bats with rounded corners and voild around wires. Now they did find a reduction in whole wall R values by those flaws.But then the specifically tested for convective looses caused by the rounded corners where it was placed in the stud bay. Tested at 100* inside and 20* outside. Very little affect.So they not only had the potential of the convection in the bats, but also the vertical air chambers where the bats where not fluffed up in the corners.So it appears that PART of the limitation of FG is has been overstated and is limited to open face, low density attic fill.However, FG bats still has the problems of getting it installed without void and that, by it'self, does not do anything to control infiltration or moisture movement that other insulation can help with.It is based on the Oak Ridge testing of full wall assemblies.http://www.ornl.gov/sci/roofs+walls/research/detailed_papers/Whole_Wall_Therm/index.htmlhttp://forums.taunton.com/tp-breaktime/messages?msg=95096.72 95096.72 in reply to 95096.70 http://www.homeenergy.org/archive/hem.dis.anl.gov/eehem/92/920510.html"Convective Loss in Loose-Fill Attic Insulation
by David W. ConoverDavid W. Conover is an architect concerned with affordable housing, particularly with regard to energy conservation.
Yes, Virginia, there is convective loss through loose-fill fiber-glass attic insulation, and researchers at Oak Ridge National Laboratory have quantified it. They have also tested remedial measures-additional layering or "covers"- that reduce the losses.Commonly held assumptions about how insulation works are being refuted, and some long-standing mysteries solved by experiments at a new, large testing facility at Oak Ridge National Laboratory (ORNL). This article is a progress report of recent testing there of low- density, loose-fill fiber-glass attic insulation."...http://www.ornl.gov/sci/roofs+walls/tour/LSCS.htmlDetails of the LSCS.There are other interesting posts in that thread..
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A-holes. Hey every group has to have one. And I have been elected to be the one. I should make that my tagline.
Thank You Bill.
They can't get your Goat if you don't tell them where it is hidden.
Assume a 1000 sq ft house, 30 X 33 with 10’ walls (1260 sq ft gross area). Walls are 4" so the studs are R4 (40 sq ft).). Good windows with R5 with 100 sq ft of glass. Also 100 sq ft of doors with R8. So the walls are 1020 sq ft net insulated at either R13 or R15. Flat roof ceiling is R29, the ceiling joists are 12" so R12 (100 sq ft). (1000 sq ft – joists 100 sq ft or 900 sq ft net). A really cold day with a 50F temperature differential. Calculate the heat loss.
Heat transfer (BTU/hr) = (area / R) * delta T
Ceiling is 900/29 * 50 = 1552 BTU/hr
Joists are 100/12 *50 = 417 BTU/hr
Windows are 100/5 *50 = 1000 BTU/hr
Doors are 100/8 * 50 = 625 BTU/hr
Wall studs are 40/4 * 50 = 500 BTU/ hr
Total before wall loss = 4094 BTU/hr
Wall area is 1020/13 * 50 = 3923 BTU/hr at R13
Wall area is 1020/15 * 50 = 3400 BTU/hr at R15
Total heat loss is 8017 or 7494 BTU/hr. The difference between R13 and R15 (about 500 BTU/hr) is about 6% of the total heat loss. At $.25 / KWH and since 1BTU/hr = .000293 KW the cost of the lower quality insulation is about $.85 per day – for those coldest days (and how many days that cold are there?).
I was considering Tigerfoaming the inside of my walls before conventional insulation at the Tahoe house I am building. It doesn’t seem to make any economic sense. Or a real comfort difference (500 BTU vs 90,000 BTU heater) (OK my house is bigger so it’s 2000 BTU vs 90,000 BTU but how many vacation days will I get?). So I will use the Tigerfoam for noise insulation and air leak sealing. As long as I have a reasonable R value everywhere, I won’t stress over getting the best possible R value.
Eric
well... i hate to induce stress in anyone... but there are a couple other things to consider when thinking of upgrading your R-value
1) comfort.... both heating & cooling
2) anything you spend on insulation goes into the cost of the house.. most people this means it goes on the mortgagae which is tax deductible
heating and cooling costs are not tax deductible
also.... when you sell the house, let's assume that your better insualted house is worth more money ( maybe yes, maybe no )
in any case you can reap the benefits of the $250,000 exclusion ( $500K for a married couple ).....
so that should be factored in also
3) allow for inflation.... insualtion not installed with 2008 dollars will be paid for with inflated fuel costs
so... i don't stress about extra insulation either, i just include it in everything we build
Mike Smith Rhode Island : Design / Build / Repair / Restore
Mike
Excellant arguements in favor of better insulation. Some of which I hadn't considered.
I insulated my house as well as I did because I hate cash layouts once I'm retired so the lower outlay when I'm retired will make up for the higher outlay during my working years making the payments..
Yes, and because you spend X thousands more to avoid an expense later you have less interest or dividend income to pay expenses later.
"anything you spend on insulation goes into the cost of the house.. most people this means it goes on the mortgagae which is tax deductible"
The mortgage is not deductible... most times a portion of the interest is deductible (that pesky standard deduction for those that own their home(s)).
It is the DIFFERENCE in the cost of the mortgage that is to be considered... $2k extra insulation cost = $120/yr @ 6% int... $120/yr @ 28% inc tax rate = $33.6 less per year.
Argue all you want, but it is hard to push that button.
Even worse if I own the house.
The rest of your arguement is on the money and worth the effort to justify.Liberty = Freedom from unjust or undue governmental control.
American Heritage Dictionary
hack... i'm sorry i mispoke..... mea culpa..
anyways i've been talking about pay-back periods since '75
and the two things i know from personal experience is that energy homes are usually more comfortable
and inflation usually makes thee improvements look like genius decisions... as long as you live in the house long enough to realize the gains
Mike Smith Rhode Island : Design / Build / Repair / Restore
Agreed with everything... but that one thing.
I just spent $300 in materials to redo the insulation in a kneewall attic. That will pay back monetarily very soon.
BUT
The house is soooo much more comfortable. Imagine all the wasted discomfort over the years because some numbnuts didn't spent $100 25 years ago.
Doing insulation correctly is the way to go.
Every time.
Payback be dammed.Liberty = Freedom from unjust or undue governmental control.
American Heritage Dictionary
A couple thousand BTU versus a normal heater (or air conditioner) will not be noticeable. R13 is reasonably well insulated so the house will still feel comfortable. A minute or two extra time for the heater does not affect livability of the house.
85 cents a day for the one week that it is really cold and perhaps another 85 cents a day for the week it is really hot - plus 8 hours a day for the warm and cold month totals about $30 per year. Most houses turn over every 7 years so $210 is the break even point - the budget.
If I were wanting to spend my energy savings budget, I would insulate with 1/2 inch styrofoam and R13. I bet the energy savings would be even higher than R15 (R13 + R2.5) by mixing the heat transfer characteristics of the different insulation types. Or put the money into Greenguard housewrap (1/8 inch foam over the outside of the building) - not much help on the calculated R value but a real world improvement. The Tahoe house is wrapped in Greenguard under the stucco - and without any other insulation it's not bad inside on those really cold nights.
It's not cutting corners, it's reasonable use of your resources.
Eric
Don't get me wrong, I am a big believer in insulation. The old Tahoe cabin had no insulation at all. If we assume the same 1000 sq ft cabin with R2 insulation and a 50 F delta T, we end up with 56,500 BTU/hr heat loss. A fairly large central heater cannot keep up with the load so the house is uncomfortable. Plus if heating with Sierra Pacific's expensive $.24 / KWH electric it would cost $95.00 per day to keep the cabin warm. You'll pay off the insulation in a year! Unless you go crazy and spend way too much to save the last $.85.
The power bills were VERY high on the old cabin (radiant electric floor heat) - and we didn't spend very many nights there. Plus it was cold and smoky (from the wood stove which kept us from freezing - not comfortable).We went way overboard on the new cabin so we won't be able to pay off the new cabin on energy savings. But at least we'll be able to afford to spend the night there.
Eric
Mike, I see you are not an accountant. LOL.
Tax deductible? People are frequently confused about deductions. for laughs I all say; why don't we just spend all our money and make us all millionaires? When you pay interest charges the first thing you need to remember is YOU SPENT the bloody money. Ok, on each $1.00 of interest you get 15% or as high as 30 something back on your taxes. You are still out 70 to 85 cents of that dollar.
Also think about it this why. Let's say you have $100 dollars in the bank and you like the idea of tax deductible interest expenses, and you are in the 25% tax bracket. So you keep the $100 in the bank and borrow $100 in the form of mortage. Your $100 in the bank earns you $5 (5% Certificate of Deposit), you pay Uncle Sam $1.25, so you have earned $3.75. Now, on your $100 loan you pay $6 (6% mortgage), you are so thrilled that you have a tax deduction. You prepare your taxes and say $1.50 in taxes! So, in the end you really only payed $4.50 in interest. But YOU ACTAULLY DID PAY that NET $4.50! But you say, well I still have my $100 in the bank and I did earn a NET $3.50. Bottomline, is that if you had spent the $100 instead of borrowing another $100, you would have had no interest income; but by keeping the $100 in the bank and borrowing $100, you get a tax deduction, but your net result is a $1.00 loss.
As for resale valve of a well insulated house, I would say in theory or in a dream people will pay. But people pay for bedrooms, bathrooms, new kitchens, and square footage. ANd since on average, people spend only five years in a house, that only gives you five years to get a payback on an invisible item like insulation. Foam will never pay. Now if you build your dream home and plan to live there the rest of your life, you have you own math to do.
Doright I am not sure as to the situation Mike is referring to, but there is also the Tax Credit for added energy saving devices, windows doors etc not that it is a big woop 300.00 max I think, a bit more for couples. I agree I would not look at interest as viable tax deduction. Everyone hopes to pay there house off at some point, at that point no deduction.Wallyo
wallyo, you bet, be sure to check out the tax credits.
As for interest deductions, if deducting interest is a way to pay for stuff or to save money, the next time you go for a loan ask them to double or even triple the interest rate. Afterall the big the deduction the better right? LOL!
Think about it. LOL.
"wallyo, you bet, be sure to check out the tax credits."A day late and a dollar short.Or more accurate 22 days late..
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A-holes. Hey every group has to have one. And I have been elected to be the one. I should make that my tagline.
I agree on the interest point, that one always gets me people strive to lock in at the lowest possiable rate then worry about losing the deduction if they pay their house off early!
Well, and as someone else said most people get next to NO VALUE from a mortage deduction because it just replaces their standard deduction.
Dovetail.
An attic is different from a wall.. In a wall the warm air on against the the sheetrock will want to climb. The cold air on the inside will want to fall.. pure physics.
All you have resisting it is the resistance of the fiberglas to air flow. I have a digital infrared thermometer that could quickly show you just what I'm speaking about..
Sorry frenchy, It is an urban myth.
They can't get your Goat if you don't tell them where it is hidden.
dovetail!
What urban myth? Tell that to that hot air ballon flying over your head ? He'll be extremely interested.
frenchy, You do the research into the discovery of the air currents within fiberglass insulation. I already did it.
They can't get your Goat if you don't tell them where it is hidden.
dove give it up, you are posting to frenchy. LOL.
Could be worse , I could be posting to DoRight.
They can't get your Goat if you don't tell them where it is hidden.
It must be "you can use the computer day" at the asylum.Spheramid Enterprises Architectural Woodworks
"Success is not spontaneous combustion, you have to set yourself on Fire"
Yea, the valveable advice of frenchy, such as to just leave OSB out in the rain for four years, does make for good advice. Please do follow that advice, or are you already under his tutalege?
Ok, I gotta ask this.
Why do you always type 'valve' when it seems that you mean 'value' are you retarded?Spheramid Enterprises Architectural Woodworks
"Success is not spontaneous combustion, you have to set yourself on Fire"
There has been quite a bit of talk about convection in a studbay, can some one tell me this, what R value was studied R11, 13 OR 15? It would seem to me the denser the insulation the less air, the less air the less convection. In other words, let's assume there is indeed convection if one were worried about this wouldn't high density R 15 cut down on the amount?Wallyo
Sphere are bipolar. Just got to ask.
Tupical, if you are incapable of anything substative to say, incapable of thinking, attack a typo. Pitiful. But, I guess you do the best with what you have.
Sorry, not Sphere are bipolar. Correction, Sphere are YOU bipolar? I realize that since you are bereft of substance you would get around to pointing that out, but I thought I would save you the effort.
LMAO..same typo 4 times in a row..methinks you just can't spell your way out of a paper bag. Should I point you towards the other repeated blunders you call spelling?Spheramid Enterprises Architectural Woodworks
"Success is not spontaneous combustion, you have to set yourself on Fire"
Sphere, you make my point. You are to braindead to say anything substative so all you can do is whine about spelling and typos? Go back to school, and learn something, anything, so that you will have something to say. Pitiful, pitiful, and typical.
Sure thing , I know better than to engage in battle of wits with an unarmed opponent.
Later S>HSpheramid Enterprises Architectural Woodworks
"Success is not spontaneous combustion, you have to set yourself on Fire"
Sphere, so let we see if I get thsi right. I will recap. A guy mispells a word. You call the guy retarded. Now, if that is the beef. Would you not agree that is a pretty A$$hole thing to do? Which . . . well makes you an A$$hole. NOw, if spelling is not your beef, then I would have assumed that you would have said so. So, I guess that leaves us with teh conclusion that you are an namecalling a$$hole. Pretty much some it up.
I mean if it were me and a guy misspells a word, and assuming I were an egomaniac, I might point out the error. But call someone retarded, that is just an a44hole thing. When I am right, I am right. Of course that jsut me.
Not at all. I ASKED you if you were retarded, I didn't call you that. You called ME an AH..
So, actually, I hope to encite you to show your true illness and get your self removed by the moderators for your actions.
And I qoute you here..". well makes you an A$$hole. NOw, if spelling is not your beef, then I would have assumed that you would have "
Now they ( TPTB) can make the call of how soon they want YOU to be by yourself somewhere.
Keep posting..I almost have enough to nail ya.Spheramid Enterprises Architectural Woodworks
"Success is not spontaneous combustion, you have to set yourself on Fire"
C'mon now...don't feed the trolls....
I want to, that way he'll swell up like a tick and explode.Spheramid Enterprises Architectural Woodworks
"Success is not spontaneous combustion, you have to set yourself on Fire"
Splat
Well I am an AH and you, Sir are not an AH.About the OP instead of making some wild claims he can look up some of the research that shows what happens with insulation under different real world conditions.I have posted some links in this thread where whole walls are assembled and tested..
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A-holes. Hey every group has to have one. And I have been elected to be the one. I should make that my tagline.
Yes, real world conditions vary to extremes. What works is knowing there is no "one size fits all" answer.
I know I have 4 different kinds of insulation in my house..and some works well, and some don't. Such is life.
I forgot that you were the AH around here..I feel better now..(G)
Maybe a certain persons attacking nature could be designated as being a "Trollhole" LOLSpheramid Enterprises Architectural Woodworks
"Success is not spontaneous combustion, you have to set yourself on Fire"
"Not at all. I ASKED you if you were retarded, I didn't call you that. You called ME an AH.."
Now, that sounds like a first grader. But ok, let me ask you, Are you an Assshole? Now, I did not call you and Assshole, so no moderator could possibly object to that, right? Do you think you fool anyone?
What a school girl.
Maybe he's concerned about the effect of light on the insulation?
Is this the stairman?
Peace full.
Got me. But if ya want to insult someone at least have the common decency to learn the correct grasp of subtle nuance and spell check. It just goes that much farther when executed with care.
"No amount of work can make up for a sloppy insult"
LOL.
Be have some decency man!Spheramid Enterprises Architectural Woodworks
"Success is not spontaneous combustion, you have to set yourself on Fire"
Besides, I had all this left over popcornSpheramid Enterprises Architectural Woodworks
"Success is not spontaneous combustion, you have to set yourself on Fire"
dove is saying that actually studys prove you WRONG. No surprise. Not that I have seen the studies, but that is what dove is saying. And no thermal camera can show a convection "loop", and bit more fiction now frenchy? A camera can show that the air higher in a wall is warmer than lower, if indeed that is the case, but CAN NOT SHOW that it is mvoing.
Yeah, "timber frames are cheap", "OSB can be left exposed in the rain for four years", what will you wet dream up next?
Yes, yes, yes, yes, and that is why a house WITH NO INSULTATION is cheaper to heat than one with FG. No, wait . . . ah, well . . . ah .....
And the post did specifically mention that he was aware of ALL the debates, and specifically mentioned foam. But then again you can't or don't read, or more likely don't care to read and just want to be a smart a$$.
I have it in my house, its by certainteed, its yellow not pink. I got it from a supply house, at the time the store was called "Interior, exterior" I dont remember the new name
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two ways to screw up concrete 1) concrete driver 2) concrete finisher
I'm wondering why anyone that is concerned with thermal efficiency is framing with 2x4s?. For a few cents more, you can have 2x6 walls with R-21 batts. By the way, the standard for 2x6 was R-19 for the longest time. I started using R-21 a few years ago but my local yard didn't stock it although they could get it with a couple of days notice. A couple of months ago, they finally started stocking R-21. The squeaky wheel got greased.
RedfordOkay lets expand the focus to Include, R19 vs R21 still the same situation no one here carries it in stock. I just picked R13 vs R15 because until recently 2x6 walls were uncommon, and the majority of the nations houses are 2x4 construction.I hope your local supplier keeps stocking R19, like I said Lowes once had it here when they first opened but then it stopped. Before that I think Home Base had before they went chapter 11. I can get it here but need to go out of my way wholesalers etc. a lot more travel time.Example I redid a bath tore open exterior wall 2x4 insulation was 1 inch thick fiberglass. Would of preferred to put in R15 but I was not to travel for one roll, picked up R13 the next morning at HD when getting tile board.Wallyo
Edited 1/19/2008 12:33 am ET by wallyo
For a small area like that get some extruded stryfoam (blue or pink board). Cut it to fit in the cavity and seal around the edges with great stuff.3" gives you R 15 and better air sealed..
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A-holes. Hey every group has to have one. And I have been elected to be the one. I should make that my tagline.
Bill That is a good Idea and I have done something similar on houses with drop down windows or pocket windows to make the room warmer. It works as long as the studbay is clear of pipes wires vents etc, it works. If one needs to work around these item it will take many cans of great stuff.The point I am try to make is a lot of fiberglass gets sold in this country, I know there are better way to insulate, but why isn't R15 or R21 more prevalent.Wallyo
"...but why isn't R15 or R21 more prevalent."
Same reason we still tolerate cars and trucks that get 12-15 mpg. Collectively, we are a nation of ignorant, shortsighted, overly consumptive, overweight, pompous dingdongs. Detroit's answer to what American drivers really need is larger cup holders for our tankards of diet Coke.
We continue to be sold inferior cra*p because we continue to buy it in great quantities, and nothing is going to change anytime soon as long as we'd rather watch American Idol than read a book.
Not all of us, the operative word is "collective", which I'm afraid is all that seems to really matter.
Sorry for the rant. Think I'll go slap a puck around on the pond.
RedfordHenry
Take the price of that 2x6 wall and the price of the insulation plus the labor to install it and you will quickly see where SIP's and ICF's can be as cheap or cheaper..
Anytime you have an insulation discussion with tradional stick building please remember the R value of the studs (near nothing)! That is why you must degrade your R value rating by 20% thus an R value of R19 has a real world number of R15.2 at best!
Then you add the convection that occurs in a stud bay and fiberglas insulation in the walls becomes really marginal.
okay enough . fibreglass insulation is a good product. i don't know where you got the idea that wood has little or no r value. last i checked it was 1 per inch. no it is not like foam. i also don't know how the average person could build a sip house as cheap as stick built. you have a beautiful home. not everyone can afford the PREMIUM building methods. the last a trusted home builder checked and ran the numbers it was 30% more. a house with r19 /2x6 studs/tyveck/good windows/ r50 attic, performs very well in blower tests. the reason, gentlemen that home builders don't spend the money for energy star rating is that so far the market does not put a premium on the label. when it becomes important to homebuyers they will pay the money to become energy star rated. frenchy, ease up. it may have been less expensive for you, trust me it's not for everybody.
frammer52
ICF's Prior to the currant melt down in new housing starts routinely charging only a 2%premium over stick building.. when they first started in use the late 90's there was a 30% + premium for them but I went ahead anyway because by DIY I saved over $5000 over the lowest quote I got for a cinder block foundation. A poured wall was $8000 more. No quote included the floor which I was able to do myself at the same time I did the ICF's
Today contractors will gladly do ICF house and meet the lowest stick framing quote..
If you haven't ever done an ICF house I can well imagine the reluctance you would have in doing them.. I mean how much experience do you have doing things the traditional way. Darn hard to set all that aside and start out doing something you aren't familiar with.. I understand that!
Once you've done a few you'll wonder why you were concerned, espcially if your supplier was as supportive as mine.
With increased use the cost can only go down,
SIP's on the other hand did then and do now still command a premium.. Not because of the cost of materials.. I found that raw material costs were actually lower thanbuying materials from lumberyards. Raw material costs were under $3.00 a sq.dt. with SIP's and fractonally over that for tradional stick building. Plus with stick building you had the added labor cost of installing the insulation.. (Insulation is preinstalled in SIP's and ICF's )
Now admittedly the advantage I had was that I went directly to the manufacturer rather than going thru a middle man..
your 30% premium sounds correct if you buy thru a middleman. However If a DIY guy can buy direct what's to prevent someone else from doing the same?
Thank you frammer. Some people love to brag and blow smoke, big egos, and very low self confidence. As you say it all boils down to economics. FG has made tons of sense in the past and people who WASTED tons of money on other insutlation products IN THE PAST have only gained an air of superiority. If no one else with give them strokes, they have to stroke themselves.
This is likely changing. Energy is only getting more expensive. But you still can not over pay for savings! For a million dollars I could cut my heating bill to zero, would that make sense? SPend a million to save $1000 each year? But when I can still heat my 2600 sq ft FG insultated house in the north (-3 this morning) for no more that $130 in the worst month, how much lower could that be if the house had been built with foam? Say it could be half, say $60 less. And say that is true for five months each year, $300. Well using a 10% opportunity cost of money in perpituity the financial analsyis valves that savings at $3000. So if you could pay $3000 to save $300 that would be worth it. Can you use foam for $3000? Would, in this example you really say $300 each year?
Not with the numbers I have seen on this board.
But, believe me when I build in the next couple of years I will look at foam again.
Was strolling down the insulation aisle at the big box when cocoon cellulose caught my eye. Sign read R 13 at 3.9 inches now since a standard wall cavity is only 3.5 inches that would mean 13/3.9=3.333 per inch.Therefore 3.333*3.5=11.666667R value, now I don't know this may change in a wall and the figures might be flat laid in a ceiling the sign ha no such disclaimers though. Just thought it was interesting.Wallyo
Insulation manufactuers are very fond of their highly compressed batts of insulation. R-15 will cost nearly twice what R-13 costs. Box stores are merely stocking what most customers are wanting to buy. The average DIY is not willing to pay a great deal more for an extra R-2. Even professional contractors who buy from distributors usually will not buy R-15 unless they must use it for some type of code issue.
I have seen R-15 in my local Lowes, but usually it is just a small amount. As an insulation contractor, in my opinion you will never see enough cost savings using R-15 to justify it's increased cost.
Good point but is the extra cost due to economics of scale, more R-13 is manufactured so r-15 costs more. Let say the energy dept bans R13 and R11 says everyone must make R-15 will it really cost twice as much. I am not in favor of government mandates by the way.Has been a bit since I purchased it and can't remember the price , wish I could remember the price of what I saw at HD before Christmas. That was probably a miss shipment anyway only saw it at one store.WallyoEdited 1/19/2008 12:42 am ET by wallyo
Edited 1/19/2008 1:33 am ET by wallyo
wallyo,
Don't forget that every 16 inches or so you have a stud.. that stud has a near zero R value. That is why you must degrade even R 15 by 20% to get real world R values.. thus your R 15 wall has an R value of R12. Now add the wall scrubbing effects and it's dropping even further..
Let's ignore the possibility of moisture entering the bay somehow.. but if it did foam doesn't change (closed cell) while Fiberglas quickly drops to zero.
Finally ignore human errors common in insulation.. SIP's have no voids while Fiberglas can easily have voids unseen by the most conscientious installer.
In that same space I can have a SIP wall that has a R Value of 20 or even 28!
An ICF wall will have a R value of 19 to 28 depending on....
Comparing FG and cellulose.
I understand that FG can dry out if it gets soaking wet and gains back it's R value.
Can the same be said for cellulose? Settle? mold? soggy?
Could it be that FG has an asset not yet mentioned? I dunno
if you have soaking wet insulation, it has to come out of the wall/attic, or you will never get the space dried out... in that case what you need is a dumpster.. you are not going to put either product backMike Smith Rhode Island : Design / Build / Repair / Restore
We often do wet-spray cellulose in our walls. Not my favorite system, but the installer swear it's nothing but cells and H2O. It dries out and sticks like felt. Not roofing felt, but the stuff they make felt hats out of. And if dense-packed or wet-sprayed it doesn't settle appreciably.