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I really don’t think so(it pays for my babies new shoes) but since I have your attention……
What prevents or discourages every builder/owner builder from offering RFH(or any “wet” heat for that matter) as the Primary heating source in the homes they build?
What would you like to see the RFH industry provide to “sell” you on this method of heating the homes you build for your clientelle?
Replies
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Hi JJ
I specify radiant heat as a complimentary heat in certain areas of very few designs.
In some of the rooms with more open areas and large windows, if you were to use only radiant heat in our cold climate, you wouldn't be able to walk on the floor without having the feeling that you're doing a fire walk. Radiant heating is regulated to prevent the temperature getting to that level so on a small footprint, it's insufficient to do the job alone.
Gabe
*Thanks for responding Gabe.Seems as if soffit venting and central vaccuum systems are higher on the list of priorities when it comes to desirable features in a new abode this eve.Maybe I was a tad contentious with my post?
*JJ: Some of the discouragements include:Bad experiences with older piping systems that corroded within the slab.Seeing it used in instances that Gabe refers to that require too many BTU's/sq. ft. Like all those public building built in the 50's and 60's in which the floors were hot to the touch.Fear of leaks within the slab. Concerns about cracks in the concrete taking out the tubing.Fear of the unknown, new, and unfamiliar.Worries about the stiffness of the floor if a gypcrete floor is used.What would sell me on it? I'm already sold for the reasons of comfort, warm floors, even heating, low temperature water, cheap heater (DHWH), ease of zoning different areas, lack of ductwork and lack of high air velocities.What would sell others? More experience with it. Customers insisting on it. Good gaurantees. Free parts and installation (kidding, but it would work). Barring some unforeseen defect in the current methods and materials, it will spread. As more customer experience it and spec it. And as more builders gain experience and comfort with it. Consider how many Apple II computers were sold because there were lots of them in schools and we geeks in computer stores preferred them. It's worth a lot of future market to get your product in front of (preferrable owned by) professionals and those who will showcase the product. -David
*There are different radiant products now to help supplement areas like this. There are baseboards that are specifically designed to use the lower temp hot water of the floor systems. Just stub the tubing up, and connect it to the radiators after the floor is done. Bathrooms are another area with these problems.-Rob
*On our project the radiant heat estimate was 1.5X the cost of gas forced air system for heating alone. Adding in the duct work required for AC pushed the cost higher. To me the cost of the total system is the biggest drawback.Larry
*Larry,The drawback to me now that I have a radiant system installed in a client's home is that though forced air is the least expensive HVAC system by far, radiant is the most comfortable system by far.Willing to pay for the best, near the stream,J
*One thing is cost. Instalation cost is higher and evan then it's not as effective with carpeting and hardwood floors. You then need an aditional system for cooling. I am willing to pay for the best but the best of everthing? Though I haven't heard of any problems the time lag would seem to make over heating possible if other heat sources were added like a large group of people or solar gains.
*John,I don't find the cost that much more and I haven't had temperature problems at all.J
*Why not use it:a: It is expensive.b: When installed in a tight house a supplemental air exchange system must also be installed.c: When the inevitable repairs come, everything breaks sooner or later, it is a big deal.d: Periodically in my lifetime there have been loud proclamations that radiant heating is now feasible, only to find a few years later that something creates an expensive problem.I have forced air which integrates heat, cooling, fresh air exchange, air cleaning and humidity control in one unit that is reasonably priced and is relatively easy to repair. The air ducts can be classified as never needing repair.
*JJ,$$$.I love wet heat. I hate scorched air. Will pay for the leap from dry to wet, but not the premium price to go from wet to invisible. If it could get to be on par with standard finned-tube baseboard, costwise, it would sure help.Steve
*Fred,We do differ...Never have liked central forced air but it may be do to my Northern location...I might think it was the greatest in a cooling dominated climate.Near the stream and love winter's radiance,J
*AJ: Your point is well made: It is all a tradeoff. No matter where you are there are downsides to each system. Ultimately the decision on what HVAC system to install comes down to pocketbook size and personal preference. One comment, the new forced air systems are pretty well free of the old freeze and fry problems.
*Hey jj ...How's it hangin'?Show me how to install the RFH all by my lonesome since I am a poor man and none of the builders got any innovative ideas anyway. Fear of the technology and inadequate instructions dealing with a variety of integrated systems - concrete, heating and cooling demand calculations, installation procedures, and system operations as well as maintenance. Its a whole new field of knowledge that scares off builders and therefore their clients, too.teddie boy
*Still hangin' in there tedd. How's about you?Sorry I don't have more time to talk. Have to meet with my builder and try to convince him I really don't want this new house balloon framed. Old habits are hard to break. Do you think I can change his mind?BTW, I'm there fer ya' buddie!
*BUILDING A NEW HOUSE FOR ME AND THE LADY 35YRS AS A MASONRY CONTRACTOR LOT OF SWET EQUITY GOING IN TO PROJECT GOING WITH RADIENT HEAT COMBINATION ON GRADE AND ON DECK BEEN INVOLVED WITH KENNEL CONSTRUCTION THAT WORKED OUT FINE FOR THE RADIENT SLAB HOUSE TO HAVE LARGE ROOMS WITH CATHEDRAL CEIALINGS DOING THE RAND D NOW ANY SUGGESTIONS?
*BUILDING A NEW HOUSE FOR ME AND THE LADY 35YRS AS A MASONRY CONTRACTOR LOT OF SWET EQUITY GOING IN TO PROJECT GOING WITH RADIENT HEAT COMBINATION ON GRADE AND ON DECK BEEN INVOLVED WITH KENNEL CONSTRUCTION THAT WORKED OUT FINE FOR THE RADIENT SLAB HOUSE TO HAVE LARGE ROOMS WITH CATHEDRAL CEIALINGS DOING THE RAND D NOW ANY SUGGESTIONS?
*Rule #1Accurate HEAT LOSS and DESIGN!Rule #2Don't start the tubing install without......Accurate HEAT LOSS and DESIGN!Rule #3In case rule #1 or #2 was not followed, check Breaktime or Hooligan.com to get your ass out of the wringer. In the END CLAY, you were the man with the plan........right?Aside; if the kennel is comfy? you could always switch?
*Just one, Clay,UNLOCK THE CAPS LOCK BUTTON! I CAN"T READ A DAMN WORD OF WHAT YOU ARE WRITING!Seriously, It's not the "Shouting" that bothers me about all caps, It's that I can't read it.Steve
*In the last 3 years my company has put radiant heat in five houses. It is by far the most comfortable heat.My own house has radiant heat in the slab on the lower walkout level. On the main level there is baseboard. The garage also had radiant heat in the slab. I have an apartment above the garage. It has radiant heat but the tubes are suspended from the underside of the plywood floor with clips. The plumber used some kind of splitter for the baseboard and radiant. I will never use the clip or staple stystem under the subfloor again. The heat make too much noise. If the temperature is constant in the rooms the noise isn't too bad. If someone changes the heat the tubes expand and contract causing squeaking. We have only used Wirsbo and have never had any major problems. On one house the supply and returns were done in Wirsbo. The tubing ran in ceiling drops. The supply and returns make creaking noises. Now all our supply and returns will be in copper. On framed floor system we fasten the wirsbo to the plywood and pour 1 1/2 of gypcrete over it. We lay sleepers in the hardwood areas. I dread laying wood floors over radiant heat. The best way we have come up with is to glue every piece down with PL 400. The floors don't move at all. The fumes from the glue ar overwhelming. We have hit the tube once. When I went back the next morning there was a small damp spot in the2nd to last row of floor. We pulled the floor shut the heat system down and called the plumber. The plumber cut the damaged tube and put a coupling on it. The repair seemed a little shaky. There needs to be a better fix.I used to double plate the lower plates of the walls while framing. It is common practice around here to do it that way. I asked my inspector about it and he said there is no need. Now I use one bottom plate. Saves wood and time. He also said that carpet over radiant heat creates a perfect living-breeding enviroment for dust mites. Does any have any information on this.On a couple of very high end homes we have framed for other companies an extra layer of 3/4 t&g ply has been used. The Wirsbo is laid in 1 1/2 " of gypecrete on top of the subfloor. Sleepers are laid in the gyp. A second layer or 3/4 is installed over the gyp. Very expensive. It allows for patterned wood floors. One of the houses had wood floors in the lower level-a slab. The plumber didn't install the wirsbo in the 4" slab. Instead chiken wire was laid flat on top of the slab, sleepers we glued and shot down and the wirsbo was run and attache to the chicken wire with plastic ties. 1 1/2 " of gypecrete was poured. Finally a layer of 3/4 ply was laid down. Seemed like a good but expensive solution. We didn't lay the floor in this one but we lent our Bostich floor nailer to the installer. I shimmed the base so the staples do not penetrate the ply.
*iimcgough. If your builder wants to use classic balloon framing--code allowed--tell him no. It is highly conductive because the floor joists are connected to the exterior wall studs.However, if he is willing to listen then use my modified method of balloon framing which breaks the conductive path between studs and floor joists.GeneL.
*Hi Gene,How much heat would be loss by conduction in a typical home "per" 2x10 joist touching an exterior member.Gabe
*radiant heat doesn't have to involve water at all. copy the romans and lay air channels under a thermal mass-same comfortable heat, no fear of leaks. air channels are as simple as laying up cinder blocks with cores aligned, pouring a slab on top, provide a supply and return plenum hooked to a heat pump, sunspace or combination. the interior of the block provides a large heat absorbing surface in relation to the heat radiating surface of the floor, making the system efficient. there is a brief discussion of this in the old finehomebuilding masonry/concrete book, and a more updated version in recent solar tech literature, sorry i don't have the exact title. we ended up going with water, man of the household freaked at the notion of 3000 year old technology, but physics is physics, a heat sink is a heat sink. here's to the adventurous. db.
*Radiant Floor Heat under Hardwood Floors. We are in the process of laying heat for our house addition in NY (existing house is a 1927 colonial with hot water radiators). We have tubing in basement slab and sunk in concrete of areas that will be tiled. Now we are unsure if we should go ahead with radiant heat for hardwood floor areas. We bought the pex and metal clips for under plywood installation but have heard mixed reviews on heating effectiveness under hardwood. Concerned about noise of system too. One recommendation was to upgrade from builder's grade hardwood to quarter sawed hardwood or go laminate wood as a solutions. We'd rather not do laminate.Also already installed many recessed lights, which it sounds like we need to weave at least 12 inches around. Sounds to us like a solution to install in concrete in hardwood areas and glue down wood. Do you think the hardwood choice and dead zones for recessed light will kill the effectiveness? Winter is right around the corner and we need to make a move to heat. Any advise?
*J,Success will depend heavily on how tight your house is. It's hard to push a whole lot of BTU's through the wood and floor coverings. If the house is well air-sealed and insulated, you should be able to get enough. Wood movement shouldn't be too big of a problem if the floors are strip (3 1/2 wide or less).I think I recall seeing an ad for a system recently that relies on a non-concrete method: snap-in grooved plywood subfloor that you then nail flooring over like normal. Seemed like a good idea to me. Don't recall where I saw it.Steve
*I can tell you what I have:* 3/4" TG subfloor* 1/2" ply underlayment on top* Brazilian cherry strip (3" width) hardwood over the 1 1/4 of plyPEX is stapled up to the bottom of the subfloor. Half-inch foil-faced RFBI is friction-fit between the joists, about a 1 1/2" gap between the insulation and the subfloor. No Al plates were used. The first floor (basement ceiling) also has R-19 FG batts below the RFBI.My joists are TJI's, 19.2" on center. I ran two lengths of PEX in each bay. I'm in New England and have had this setup for 4 very comfortable winters. New construction when built. My water runs at about 90-95 degrees.Noise can be eliminated if the PEX is not pulled too tightly nor curved in too tight of a radius when installed. Wherever the tubing goes through a hole in the joists, line the hole with a bit of FG or with a rolled up strip of cardboard. Simple, but effective. Some applications groan through their first few heating/cooling cycles then go mute. I've not had a noise problem in my own house, though.Moving runs of tubing a few inches to accomodate cans shouldn't create dead spots in your heating system.
*So tell everyone Mongo:Are you and yours Comfortable?Would you give this "new technology" a thumbs up?What if anything, would you have done differently to improve this system?Would you recommend radiant floor heat for your clientelle?Would you recommend your clientelle shifting dollars from other parts of the budget in order to afford RFH?Not to put you on the spot, just curious as to what an impact it has made on your sensibilities and whether or not you feel as if it is worth the money.Jeff (not "marketeering")
**So tell everyone Mongo: "Mongo"*Are you and yours Comfortable? Extremely*Would you give this "new technology" a thumbs up? I'd even give it two if I hadn't nearly cut off the tip of my second thumb. Thus, the best I can do is one and one-half thumbs up.*What if anything, would you have done differently to improve this system? Honestly, I'd be hard pressed to come up with any complaints. It was the first radiant installation I had ever done. The installation process was fairly easy. No special tools or equipment required. There are techniques for pulling tube to minimize kinks, you pick those up rather quickly. I kinked two out of the first three joist bays, haven't done one since, and that was several years ago. As far as performance, it's wonderful. Properly size the tubing runs, maximize the number of zones for optimum control, and tweak the system for an efficient delta T and you're in business. Add an outside thermocouple so when the temp starts to fall it lead-turns the heating system.*Would you recommend radiant floor heat for your clientelle? I do, and it's put in about 4 of 5 houses that I build. Some go gypcrete, some staple. *Would you recommend your clientelle shifting dollars from other parts of the budget in order to afford RFH? All customers are different, as you're well aware. I highly encourage them to embrace RFH. Staple is less expensive (here the gypcrete can run $2 psf). I haven't seen much difference between gypcrete and staple when using wood flooring, but I do like gypcrete under tile, I'm referring to large portions of tile. In smaller baths/showers, etc, I like the under-tile mesh mats set in thinset or mud. In the market I build in, it's about a 0.7% to 1.2% to "cost shift". That can be handled if required. It's much easier to "handle" if it's planned for in the initial package.*Not to put you on the spot, just curious as to what an impact it has made on your sensibilities and whether or not you feel as if it is worth the money. I often forget just how nice it is until we have company over. All guests notice the comfort level and the absence of cold floors. There are no "drafty" areas or "warm" spots. The gals usually notice the missing baseboards (no furniture placement restrictions) and lack of registers and associated drafts and noise. I've done several retrofits for these friends. Honestly, I think it was one of the best choices we made in building our house.I do think it's worth the money. The comfort is superior. It uses less fuel than other heating methods (baseboard and forced-air in my area). Here oil heat reigns, as natural gas is unavailable and LP is pricey. The downside? The first winter I stored several cases of "beverages" in one corner of the kitchen. Sure enough, the bottom case got a bit warm and the flavor never quite recovered from the "heat treatment." Sigh...
*Well kick my ass from hither to yon!!!!I just pissed myself into a new case of Depends.Are you sure you just ain't hankerin' a lick at that posterboy for RFH?And I don't mind teeli' ya....that was one hell of a demonstration of HTML.You da Mon BUBBA' at least in my book!!!!Those who have questions???...line up on the left.Those who are ready to order???....get your frickin' wallets out, cash in hand and line up in front of Mongo and Jeffie....In all seriousness Mongo, that was probably the best description of radiant floor heat from one who has actually installed it and lived with it that I have ever witnessed. A GC none the less??!!Where do we send the check?sigh....
*I won't attempt to out-do that eloquent praise for RFH. Let me just throw out a related topic: We have installed many radiant floors, both in slab and under hardwood, and we have used a variety of controls. Under hardwood floors is not so much of a challenge because it has much faster response and also cools faster. But radiant slabs can take up to 2-3 days to heat up and as long to cool down. In our area,(northeast), the weather can go from 30 degrees to 65 degrees in one day. You can imagine that it can be hard to control the temperature in the room when the floor can't change faster than the weather. We have used a variety of systems, from indoor/outdoor resets (expensive and complicated, but they work), to as simple as a manual mixing valve with a pump that comes on whenever other zones run (the colder outside, the more often other zones run, the warmer the floor). My current favorite is to use the latter system in conjunction with radiant panel in the room, with the radiant panel on a indoor thermostat. The theory is that the floor stays warm in cold weather, and contributes to heating the space, but the radiant panel takes up the slack in very cold weather or when the temperature changes quickly and the floor hasn't caught up yet. I'm not so much looking for advice, just curious to see how other people deal with controlling radiant heat.
*I promise you, I'm not affiliated with RFH in any way, shape, or form, nor do I profit from it. I just think that based on its merits alone it should be mandated in all new construction.As for that check, just make sure you spell my name correctly:Mongo "Wirsbo"Or, email me at [email protected] me what materials you need and I'll have my boys in shipping send them out ASAP...uhhh, I mean I'll forward your order to a supply house I own...uhh, do business with, they'll send it out immediately. COD okay with you?
*Okay, so here is what I've got. 3/4" plywood sub-floor over 2x10 joists.First I lay a felt vapor barrier, then I plan to run 1/2" pex. I have sized the system so I know the spacing of the tubing and the bending limitations. Pretty standard so far, but here is where it gets weird. I notch 2x4's around the tubing and make (sleepers?) on 16" centers so I have something to nail my hard wood strip flooring to. I then fill the 1 1/2" cavities with sand. This gets me the mass I need without the mess of gypsum or concrete. My question is am I missing something? And would I be able to use copper in this application instead of pex? Copper being more efficient as far as heat transfer is concerned. I live in the jungles of Alabama, the winters are short and relatively mild and my house is well insulated. You seem like the Cat that would know. Thanks James FloydE-MAIL: [email protected]
*What should I think about as I consider putting radiant floor heating in a new house being built for me in the Pacific Northwest. Temperature never dips very low, nor reaches very high. Area is on the ocean and has a lot of rain and fog and people say mildew can be a problem. Some have said that forced air is superior since it heats,circulates and filters air, all of which are helpful with mildew. What do you think, if cost is not the primary concern ?
*Jeff, my man ...Your archives (and your search capability) are truely impressive, how could you find such an obscure post that's, what, six months old ? tedd
*Tedd, my provincial buddie. I am not sure what you are referring to exactly. My archives of wet heat and the various personalities who wet themselves over this stuff are quite extensive. Dating back, I would say, let me think...??? Well at least 3 years.I even have this guy from Toronto I once spoke with in those archives, tedd!! I pull those out every once in awhile just so I don't forget the message. Still amazes me today. Too bad the RFH industry hasn't used the tools that were in this Canuck's kit. What goes around comes around, eh?The public players, their attitudes and idiosynchracies have changed a tad in the last year or so. Even the names have changed in some cases to protect the guilty/innocent. What was obscure thinking, sometimes a bit presumptive and even taken for granted as "the only way" has come under scrutiny by the followers. Such as it should be.Hey tedd, if you run into that guy I spoke with in Toronto, tell him he might want to take another shot at the RFH industry, will ya? At times it takes someone from the outside looking in to clear the fog.Jeff
*Mongo -What is FG? The stuff you put around PEX through floor joists?Also - how would you insulate the the first floor joists and second floor joists using 1/2" thick radiant panels attatched to the top of an existing 3/4" T&G subfloor. In case you are wondering this is a remodeling project and the homeowner wants RFH on the first and second floor. The radiant panels have grooves in them for the PEX tubing and an aluminum skin on the top side.Thanx
*I am installing tile over a radiant floor heating loop. The subfloor is 3/4' plywood. The radiant floor tubing is Radiantec 1" OD tubing. I am planning on putting down 1 1/4" plywood sleepers between the pex tubing (with reflective aluminum under the sleepers and aluminum 'fins' under the pex) topped with 1/2" hardiboard (glued and screwed to the sleepers) and then the tile. Is the hardiboard the best underlayment for the tile or should I use 1/2 inch plywood? Any thoughts or advice?
*Fine Wood working had an article in December about ceiling mounted electric radiant heating panels for the workshop.I bought several 2' I 6' panels and they worked so well that I put two in my home for heating a window seat and porch.www.sshcinc.comThe neat thing is that they easily mount on the ceiling and run on 110 or 230 volts. worst case is they break, and you have to take out 4 screws and install a new panel rather than tear out the floor.
*I'm planning on installing hickory flooring over a radiant heat floor in gypcrete. There are 2x4 sleepers nailed between the tubing except at the ends where the tubing loops around each sleeper. I was planning on installing 3/4" t&g plywood to the sleepers with screws and glue and then nailing the hickory to the plywood, with a vapor barrier between the plywood and the flooring. Somewhere though I read that the plywood sublayer should just float and not be nailed to the sleepers. Any ideas on this???
*I believe that was when the ply floated on the concrete (2 layers). You've got sleepers, why not use em? Where and how you put that v/barrier is something to think about. I have no tried and true opinion. Someone will give it to you.
*I am building a new home & wish to use a "light concrete" underlayment, which I would like to mix myself. Does anyone have a formula for the mixture?Thanks, Wilson
*This is my first visit and it is apparent that opinions on radiant floor heating run strong on both sides. However...I'm about to build a house in a rural area in Central Texas, and am thinking of using solar-heated water to warm the floor (stamped concrete floor on a slab foundation). Pros? Cons?
*George,The problem with solar heat is and will always be that when you need the heat the most, is when the sun ain't shine'in....And the only way around this is to add cost and complexity to your system in a point of diminishing returns scenario...That being said, pick up some old Mother Earth News mags. and have at it!near the stream,aj
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I really don't think so(it pays for my babies new shoes) but since I have your attention......
What prevents or discourages every builder/owner builder from offering RFH(or any "wet" heat for that matter) as the Primary heating source in the homes they build?
What would you like to see the RFH industry provide to "sell" you on this method of heating the homes you build for your clientelle?