I think I am going to take the plunge. Radiant floor heat for the entire house. It is new construction, about 2700 sq.ft. I plan on doing the installation myself. The heat source will be a water-heater(s). I have done some investigating on the internet and have found 2 companies that seem to offer what I need. (my biggest need, I think, is design assitance).
Has anyone ever dealt with “radiantcompany.com” also known as Radiant Floor Co? They are located in Barton VT.
How about “radiantdirect.com” also known as Hannel Enterprises in Spokane WA?
Any good stories or horror stories you have would be good. Or if you can recommend a different company.
Both outfits seem to to have their pros and cons, but I am certaitainly not an expert in the field so it’s tough to evaulate them.
Replies
I used radiantdirect.com for my system about 2 plus years ago, and I would hesitate to advise them.
Initialy they were helpful, with suggestion of number of zones and other general stuff.When I needed support, I feel thats when things went sour.
They were supposed to design my loops for me, so I sent them a floor plan and they never got back to me, even after a couple of phone calls.
So I went ahead on my own following their packet as guidance. In their info they say never make a loop longer than 520', I have been since told (too late) here that loops should not exceed 250'.
My loops are in the 250' range, but one is 450'as I remember, and is does seem to peter out.
Also, my system came with a Trinity boiler and no one in my area was familiar with the brand. I installed it myself and was having troubles with it ( thought I F'ed something up). Radiantdirect was not helpful at all,told me to contact Trinity but that they didn't like to talk to "self installers" just liecensed installers. Then why do they sell the product on a website touted for do it yourselfers?
Luckily, after a long series of phone calls and emails I found out I had a faulty contoller (brain) and all is well.
So, while I can't advise radiantdirect, I am very happy with rfh in my home. Maybe they would be ok for someone with radiant experience as the components seem of good quality. As far as installation directions, what you see on their website is what you get, no more.
My personal advise would be to use a boiler or heater that other in your area are using, for the sake of support or parts.
Good luck with your project Tim,
Mike
Trust in God, but row awayfrom the rocks
I used the Vermont company, I would have to guess 12 years ago. Used them for 2 jobs. Initially I found them very helpful, but they seem to be one step behind when I got into the systems. For instance, they shipped the job with barb fitting and 2 SS hose clamp for each fitting, they had me bending my own plates out of flat stock. When I asked if I could use the WISBRO tool, they said of course if I wanted to buy one. When I asked about preformed plates they said they could supply them if I wanted to pay the added cost. I had told them in the beginning the both of these jobs were T&M +. Since then I have heard similar stories. Just beginning they help, but I would hesitiate to reccomend them. Since you asked I use a company out of Pittsburgh,Pa. they ship anywhere (I am out of Fl). Complete design service and helpful, knowledgable people.
I have a colleague who used the Washington company, and while he ordered all the parts and supplies, he had a licensed heating/plumbing contractor put it all in. Apparently there were some significant money problems regarding a change in ownership of the company, and a warehouse fire, maybe; but I think he straightened it all out. I have no experience with the VT company (although I'm not too far down the road) - they sent me a price quote using a bunch of materials I did NOT want to use, and so I passed. So far, I've ordered all my radiant supplies from a company called 'Houseneeds', also here in VT, and have been satisfied with their products. I used Mr. Pex tubing in my slab, which is very flexible; and they sent me a Caleffi manifold and all the proper fittings. I have not asked any of these companies for advice, only ordered parts, and done my research elsewhere.
Supposedly someone makes a very flexible synthetic rubber tubing for staple-up heating, which my plumber recommended, but I haven't gotten a brand name or source out of him yet.
Try HSC--Hydronic Specialties Company, 1051 Folger Ave., Berkeley, CA 94710, (510) 548-1377
Hmmm....
I've gotten quotes from two different companies in VT--Radientec and the Radiant Floor company. Those of you who had bad experiences with them, do you happen to know which company it was?
We're putting in the radiant tubing for future use. We are using a ground source heat pump and can't afford the heat exchanger for it yet (in addition to the one for forced air)--but someday (I hope).
Thanks,
Jo
I was in your shoes about 2 1/2 years ago, and have since sucessfully and economically heated my house with radiant floors. DIY all the way except I hired out the initial heat-loss calculation and recieved on-going technical assistance from the consultant, who also sold me the bulk of my materials.
I think the biggest pot-hole in the road to DIY radiant floor heat is that there are lots of sources out there that claim thier way is the one, all-purpose, one-size-fits-all method. AND THAT METHOD MAY NOT BE THE BEST ONE FOR YOU AND YOUR HOUSE. And you get this from both web-based RFH companies and local HVAC contractors. The former because thier methods are designed to move product at a profit, and the latter either because they need to use methods that are tried and true but may not involve the latest technology, or they are tied in to a distributor that may or may not offer the best products for your particular install.
In truth, there is probably alot more customization necessary to successfully pull off radiant floor heat than with many other aspects of home construction.
Rather than go into great detail here about how the techniques I used, may I suggest that you go over to http://www.radiantpanelassociation.org/i4a/pages/index.cfm?pageid=1
And spend several hours weeding through the old posts. This RPA forum is not nearly as active on a day-to-day basis as BT, but there are some nuggets of knowledge and point/counter point discussions in the old posts that should give you a fairly well rounded education.
You need to completely understand why an accurate heat-loss calculation is #1.
You need to understand WHY it is so important to design your system for the lowest fluid temperatures.
Know the difference and advantages/disadvantages of high versus low mass systems and how each may or may not fit in with your house construction and life style.
Why you should not oversize your heat source "just to make sure".
You need to consider your dwelling; how it's insulated, its solar orientation, finished floor materials, windows, cost of various fuels in your area, the number of heating degree days in your climate...etc, etc, etc.
Anyone you speak to that is selling a RFH product or service will have thier own special axe to grind...not that they are cruel or malicious, just that you need to have a firm grasp of the fundamentals and then judge for yourself which company or contractor best fits into your own unique needs and way of doing things.
Good luck...feel free to come back with specific questions.
I would advise against relying only on advice from vendors.
For example, one of the Vermont companies strongly advocates 'open' systems, mixing heating and potable water. This practice is more than a little controversial and illegal in many locations. They also push a very non-standard tubing of an unusual size, which does not seem to be the best choice for most situations. They also generally oversimplify things IMHO, possibly to encourage more sales.
Another online outfit is opposed to heat transfer plates, and will not design with them or sell them, which seems an odd position to hold so strongly.
What you are proposing to do is more complicated than most folks imagine. If you are serious about taking this on DIY, a great start would be to read this book:
http://store.hydronicpros.com/product.php?qcp=1002
you can also get "modern hydronic heating" at amazon. reading the book should give you an excellent idea of whether you are capable of DIY radiant floor heating.
http://forums.taunton.com/tp-breaktime/messages?msg=36676.1
Have a look here too.
Joe H
I would recommend that you find a local supply house that you can deal with face-to-face. Where are you going to build?
I design these systems and sell the equipment, controls and materials. For most of my customers, I will size the heat source/system, layout the system, give them drawings and diagrams as necessary. If the company that you deal with will not do this for you, at a reasonable price, then find their competitors: one of them will. In the course of working through the details with a potential customer, however, you occasioaally come across one that obviously doesn't have the tools/skills to get the installation done properly or close enough to actually function.
You should do enough research on your own to be knowledgeable enough to do this with little input. Many, if not most, of the manufacturer's representatives in your area will provide you with a design guide or the like. Get one and read it.
Tim :check out the radiant panel association web site .A while back radiant tech (out of Vermont)was getting bashed by all the pros big time.It was so bad that the moderator stepped in and put the thread in a different area. They simplify the job too much for a diyer and then leave you hanging .Lots of complants about them on rpa s web site
I contacted them when I was thinking about radiant flooring.The guy I talked too sounded like a used car salesman, after doing my home work on them I said no way. Look before you Leap
Greg
Lead,Follow,or Get the Hell Out of the Way!
I would shy away from mail-order companies that try to sell you on water heaters as a heat source. They have their place in some instances, but whole-house heating is best achieved using an appliance built for it. I would recommend a condensing boiler that can use the low return temperatures and save you a lot of money running the system at the same time.
The first step is to do a heat loss calculation that looks room by room what your heat losses are. Anything over 30BTU/(ft^2 x hr) and you're getting into trouble. In other words, insulate! Some rooms like stairwells and bathrooms may need supplemental heat to keep up.
For assistance in design, etc. I would contact someone knowledgeable like NRT.Rob at http://www.nrtradiant.com/ who does this sort of work for a living. NRT will do everything from the heat loss to laying out the system to building pump panels for you. In other words, they do most of the thinking work, leaving you to add your elbow grease as needed.
However, someone still has to install a heat source that is safe and economical to use. I would chose a low-mass, condensing, modulating boiler whose maximum output is matched to a design-day heat loss of your home. NRT.Rob will be able to spec that out also. Besides the design, the actual installation, dialing-in, etc. of the boiler is the most important step, so have someone experienced do that.
Many thanks to all who replied.
I won't be going with either of the companies I mentioned. It seems like I would get a "one size fits all" sort of system with all of the associated headachs. I think I am going to hire Northeast Radiant Tech. to design the system for me. They appear to be sharp.
As far as the water heater bit, believe it or not, electric is the cheapest energy here. It is cheaper than oil (BTU TO BTU) and we dont have nat. gas here. My thought process was, why use a boiler that is designed to heat water to 180 degrees or so and then have to cool it back down to 100 degrees. 100 degrees is what water heaters are designed for. And I also suspect a water heater would be cheaper than an electric boiler (not positive of this, am researching more).
Tim
Electric boilers are nice if your KWH cost is lower than other fuels. The whole modulating burner, condense or not condense, primary secondary piping etc are taken out of the equasion. AND, if your heat loss turns out to be less than 30kBTU/hr on a design day, these boilers go way down into the 20's in output. Try to get that in a modulating gas or oil boiler.
Here are three sources for electric boilers rated for space heating:
http://www.argoindustries.com/products_electric_boiler.asp
http://www.electromn.com/gen/boilers.htm
http://www.seisco.com/orderpage.html
I ended up with a Siesco (sold via more local distributor under the brand "Hydro-Shark" 9kW model, which is nearly perfectly matched to my 26kBTU design day (-10*F) heat loss, and churns out 95* - 120* water, modulating input depending on desired in-out delta. I pay $.04 per kWH load controlled rate with propane WH back up.