We are in the midst of re-siding, roofing, adding porches and overhangs and replacing a garage. Among the many decisions to be made is the “gutter decision”, or maybe more accurately the “non-gutter decision” Our home is a ranch style that we have almost completely transformed into a rustic lodge complete with tree trunks in the living room. The usual gutter designs available in our area just don’t do anything for me. I’ve looked into copper gutter online and that is cost-prohibitive, so I’ve begun to explore the RainhandleR. Good old half-round (painted to match trim) perched out on the front edge of the roof (which is on top of exposed raftertails 4×6- no fascia) is also something that looks nice to me, and seems to go with the rustic feel we’ve tried to create. What do you think? My builder says “ya gotta have guttas”. Do I really? We live in So. Oregon where it rains some, Oct, Nov, to Mar, Apr. and maybe twice during the summer, for a total of about 18″. It’s not the fabled “rust belt” of the N.W. so rain is not a huge consideration, except of course, when it’s falling on your head. Thanks for your input.
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I don't like inviting rain to the base of my foundation, but if you really want to do it, it can be done. My uncle has no gutters on his house and his basement is dry as a desert bone. His entire foundation, several feet out is filled with washed gravel, drain pipes, filter fabric, etc. All drains are daylighted.
Maybe a year or so ago, there was a good article in FHB about how to detail the ground area to help with surface water. Basically the guy called it a ground gutter. Looked like a pretty solid system. Foam board, EPDM membrane, filter fabric and gravel. Take a look at that.
However, if you aren't willing to dig up some of your foundation, then your builder is right that you should have gutters.
thanks for the input; I'll chat with my builder and see what we can come up with..
It may not be as elegant as greencu's solution but it's much easier and cheaper.
I have seen a house where the archi hung a 2X board beyond the face of a run of the mill aluminum gutter with brackets fastened to the fascia. The board was set at about 30 degrees, painted the same color as all the trim. Couldn't tell unless you are standing right underneath.
I built my gutters by fastening a 2x10 fascia flush to the bottom of the 2x4 rafter tails. I put one 5"x#12 screw at the top of each rafter tail for strength. I lined the gutter with a 3' wide strip of EPDM then installed a 1x10 cedar fascia outside and cap flashed with colored aluminum. Installed 5 copper drops, about one every 40 feet or so and the downspouts come out of my soffits. We get a lot of snow every year, and by a lot, i mean A LOT. As long as I stay off my roof, and keep my feet out of the gutter, packing the snow down, they continue to work fine all winter long. Plus they look neat and give my small house a bigger look. I also square cut my rafter tails so my roof slightly resembles a paper hat :)
That's a modern version of hidden gutter where they lined it with copper. Can you post a drawing of a cross section and a picture of the house so I can get a better idea of the "hat"? How do you detail the copper drops?
One thing to consider is how high the house is. A long drop will allow the wind more of a chance to drive the rain onto the house. Also, a long drop makes for more splashback when the water hits the ground. Overhang is another big factor. Height from grade is another. Roof area served is yet another.
If you do go gutterless, you would want a drainage system on the ground to get the water away from the house, and a surface material to mediate splashback. Crushed stone (or similar) is good for this. Hardscape is not. Soil or sand can make a mess when it splashes back onto the house.
I am looking at a big rotten mess on a gutterless home with pavement under the drip edge. The splashback has rotted the sills and sheathing. This is a small seasonal home with just an 8 ft high roof edge on rotted side, moderate overhang. Sills are 1 to 2 feet above grade. Took 50 years to get here, but it is pretty bad...
I understand that the rain you get tends to be light, so it might be more workable out there.
Build some neat "rustic" ones out of cedar.
Nifty idea. Where can I find some details?
Do it right, or do it twice.
I've done it before, but its been a while (before the digital age) and I don't think I've got any pictures. The ones I made were basically a 1x "V" with the back side (the fascia) being verticle and the other member glued and screwed at about 30 degrees. The fascia got slightly taller from one end to the other which created the flow. The trough was then lined with copper which wasn't visible except a small lip. Copper straps were then added from front to back (kind of like gutter ferrules) to add strength against snow and ice loads. This was on a log cabin. You had to look real hard to tell it was there.
I've got a two story 3 year old home in upstate New York. Gutters (called eaves' trough here and in nearby Canada, by the way) are not common, because they build up ice and snow and exacerbate ice damming. I have not regretted it one bit. There are some shallow gullies in the lawn right under them, but being a craftsman style home out of town they don't bother me like they would in one of those vinyl tract homes with the perfect astroturf lawns and a long enough summer to fuss over landscaping. I have considered laying a strip of sod down, but haven't tried it.
Over the flower beds, no problem at all. Bark mulch stops all splashback and eliminates gulleys entirely.
for a total of about 18". It's not the fabled "rust belt" of the N.W. so rain is not a huge consideration,
Assuming your house is 30x40 (probably bigger, right?), you'll be getting 15,120 gallons of water a year coming pof the roof and being concentrated around the perimeter. That's about 10 / linera foot over the course of a year.
Keep it away from the fopundation and keep it from splashing and eroding at the splash line.
Albert Einstein said it best:
“Problems,” he said, “cannot be solved at the same level of consciousness that created them.”
Your mileage may vary ....
so I've begun to explore the RainhandleR
I had a guy buy the RainhandleR system & he ask me to install them for him. I had never seen them before & really had & still have my doubts about this product. They are very light weight and are supplied with very small screws. He wanted them because of the fully wooded lot the home was on & all of the leaves that clogged the gutters in the fall. After I installed them, I took a bucket of water up onto the roof to give them a try. Pour the water to slow it falls between the fascia & first fin, too fast & the water over shoots the last fin all together, Pour the water at just the right rate & Taa Daaaa!!!!! They kind of work!!! Pretty little droplets of water, as promised!! This was a 4 or 5/12 roof.
As for looks? Beauty is in the eye of the beholder.
I returned to the home one day, looked up to see leaves & sticks resting on the RainhandleR's like a shelf!! Laugh out load.
For the way have described your project,I think half round sound good. Good luck with your project
PJE
on all the new school construction around here they pour concrete from the exterior wall out 2 feet so the water coming off the roof het the concrete and then flow into the yard. The concrete is place at an angle from the wall so it runs away from the wall. I did it to the back of my house and it works pretty good. We get about 65 inches a year. In fact its raining as I type.
What about an on ground drainage system where you install a 2-3' wide trough around the perimeter where water comes down, cover with river rock and slope it to drain. I have seen the Japanese do that with their buildings. Anybody has any experience with such a system?
on all the new school construction around here they pour concrete from the exterior wall out 2 feet so the water coming off the roof het the concrete and then flow into the yard. The concrete is place at an angle from the wall so it runs away from the wall. I did it to the back of my house and it works pretty good. We get about 65 inches a year. In fact its raining as I type.
Do they get it past the overdig area? All slab construction where you are, right? How much overdig on a slab?
_______________________
Albert Einstein said it best:
“Problems,” he said, “cannot be solved at the same level of consciousness that created them.”
Your mileage may vary ....
When you cost out gutters to concrete, who wins? What about the splashing you get with the concret, back at the house? When raining heavy, do you hear alot of noise from the water coming down on the concrete?
Just a couple of things I was wondering.
PJE
Just was told that the concrete beats in price the gravel french drains and gutters, especially over the years. Back splashing should be minimal if the house has some 18" overhang. Depends on what you have on the walls too if it will show as different color or mold, as in stucco.
In our house's design, we have porches almost all around, so the backsplash on walls would be non existent and only on the posts may be some to consider.
The builder was thinking one foot past the roof line. Maybe two feet was for large roofs in schools and a not quite 30', 4/12 pitch side of roof won't carry that much water that fast to splash further than that?
I wonder...
I did it to the back of my house, like I reply earlier, there is really no noise from concrete but remember, I have a metal roof. It makes plenty of racket, thats a noise I enjoy. The fall of concrete is 4 inches in a foot so none splatter on the house or run towards the house. something I need to mention. My slab is two foot above grade, dirt was brought in to slope this two feet, then the concrete on it, so there is a pretty good fall. I have no plants against house due to this being termite capital of the world. I,m thinking about doing the front, this way too, right now there a french drain in front, But without gutter there is no gutter maintance, no replacement, no cleaning , no ice dam problems, no squirrels with nuts. i like this method but I am the only one around here too, everybody else want flower beds. but with concrete weed eating is easy just put a wheel of the riding lawnmower on the concrete and go, finish.
Japanese chain gutters
Hi
One of my considerations is the amount of Foliage around the property. We have huge cedar and deciduous trees and the debris ends up on the roof and after rain it all ends up in the gutter. It is a constant maintenance problem. Flat roof? Slope?. All play a factor.
Mac
I have a low ground cover of the yew or juniper family under some of the drip line of my roof. Really low. Except for the wild hair this plant grows horizontally and no more than a foot tall. Water does not splash and purely by accident <G> the drainage under the plants is excellent. Absolutely no maintenance except for an occasional little bit off the sides trim with the weed wacker and pulling the little somethings propagated from the bird droppings. Grew the plant from a 3" cutting my son got from somewhere.
To compare, I have one valley shooting its stream onto a small flat piece of granite countertop scrap, surrounded by a bed of assorted river rock. The weeds grow all over the place, the river rock sometimes gets displaced by the water, the orderly look of the rock bed is compromised by the accumulation of debris and the house, 3' away, gets soaked 3-4' high.
If we ever get around to it I think we will carefully cultivate a larger, longer living water break on the ground and use the natural (or contrived, if necesary) fall of the grade to move the water.
Hi Mac,
You said that one of your problems was the large number of trees on your property and the constant need to replace your gutters. Well, my house is packed with trees and we have a lot of pine needles that clog up our gutters. We just purchased the GutterGuard system about a month ago and so far it is doing beautifully. When I bought the house, we had tiny trees growing in the gutters. It was especially nasty and gross to clean out, but we kept doing it every month because the water splashed from the roof, down to the deck and was pummeling the french doors, which let in the water onto my oak floors. It was a mess and GutterGuards seem to have been worth the investment. By the way, our roof is sloped quite a bit. I don't know the technical description of it though.
Hi Mer
Thanks for the advice. I will look at them
Regards
Mac
One thing to consider with those radiused gutter tops (there's several brands of them) is the potential for freezing. I've seen some mighty pretty stalagtite/stalagmite ice formations coming off of them in the winter.
Hi
We have spruce, fir as well as cedar. Not too concerned with stalactites or stalagmites as we live in Vancouver below the snow belt where it is faily mild. My main concern with the rounded tops is that eventually something finds its way in and then how do you clean them?
Mac
my experience (2 years with Gutter Topper under HUGE Oak, Maple, Fir, Catalpa and Spruce) is that very little finds its way in, that which does is small so it washes away (down the drain) with the next heavy rainfall. Whenever I have checked them they were as clean as the day they were installed, not even little pebbles from the shingles.
Since my gutters used to fill up 3 ~ 4 times a season, and now stay clear for two years, I am convinced that they are worth it. Gutter Topper gave me a lifetime guarantee, that they would clean my gutters for free if they ever clogged, but at this rate I'm never gonna need that.
I hope similar results for you! There are several makers of essentially the same kind of product, I don't think the maker is too important. However, installation is, to avoid any missed spots, or leaks in the cover, or 'streamers' of water during a hard rain from poorly aligned cover.
Norm
Hi Norm
Thanks for your input re Gutter Toppers. Where we live a rain forest in North Vancouver we get about 80-95 inches of rain on average per year. But We still have to water the grass in summer. We will have a dry spell, this summer being unusual almost three months which allows needles etc to accumulate on the roof. The comes the rain. We have had up to ten inches in one 24 hour period. Not a gentle drizzle. This would wash over most of these designs and drip on the concrete walkways,with the attendant noise. Have a slight problem with the current gutters not being properly sloped, which causes them to fill rapidly if there is any blockage at the downspout. Probably need 14" downspouts!
Thanks
Mac
Use gutters! Without you will cut a trough around your house under the roof line. The water will enter the ground around the house and if frozen can break foundations. Excess moisture near the house can also cause mold etc. Get the water away from the house and you will lower maintainence and add longevity.
A reply to all participating in the rain gutter discussion: it has been really nice to get such varied and interesting information and opinions. We are still coasting along, investigating, thinking, comparing. So if there are still ideas out there thay will be most welcome. Thinks so much for all the input so far. Studwoman