I’m starting a porch on a fairly traditional 10/12 cape. It has, currently, no rakes but those will be added. We’re sawing off the front soffitt and adding an 8′ wide, 4/12 pitch roof along the entire front, and around to the side. So, the 10/12 pitch will end in a 4/12 pitch porch roof. At the corner, we’ll need a hip. But because there’ll be new, 12″ rakes on the house, I’m concerned about how the two will match up.
I would think that the rafter would come down and basically you’d have an additional rafter to continue it; that would make the roofs both be in the correct plane. But wouldn’t that also move the hip OUT by that rake distance? Or do you simply move the hip rafter down the length of the extra rafter to make it in plane with the rest of the porch roofs?
I’m just having a lot of trouble ‘seeing’ this in my mind. Can’t quite bend the old noodle around it. I’m sure it’s simple, but never having done it (I’m sure I’ve seen it; but of course, never paid attention), I’m not sure of this corner detail.
Thanks.
Replies
What are these rakes you're adding? My understanding of a rake is a roof/wall intersection. I guess I need to learn a new definition!
I'm no framer, but it seems to me to look right you'd have to run your hip off the actual corner and the rake overhang would die into the side porch roof. I'm imagining it like a dutch hip with two different pitches.
Our house has a dutch hip with an overhang... if you want I could shoot a pic or two.
PJ
Everything will be okay in the end. If it's not okay, it's not the end.
Huck, a rake (at least here, that's what we refer to it as), is the overhang on the gable end of a roof. It's a foot or 16" long.
I also thought of the dieing off thing; but here's my concern; the hip point (as you'd regularly frame it), would go off at an angle, so the rake coming down would 'die off' or terminate lower than the original roof; so my fear is that you'd end up with this strange little spot at the corner that looks LONGER than the rest of the roof (as if that makes sense). Like I said, I just am having so trouble seeing it; I've been looking at pictures/trying to find a good example for the past hour or so, and come up with nada. I know this must be a common framing detail; but it just isn't clicking for me.
Thanks for your responses.
I'm not the only one confused by your choice of terms. To me a rake is the trimed edge on th egable end of a house.
A cape does not have a hip roof, but you seem to be saying that what you now have is a hip roofed cape.
but where your porcxh hip rafter lands depends on the variables of width of porch and pitch. If, as seems, both of these are equal, the hip rafter will land on the corner of the house, and the rake lands where it lands relative to that.
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Thank you for your reply. I do appreciate it. It's a wraparound porch, coming off of the 10/12 pitch on the cape; as it wraps around the corner of the house, you have the hip there. If you add the rake on the gable end (at the original 10/12 pitch), and continue it down until it dies into the new, shallower hip, won't that make that one spot out of plane with the rest of the new porch roof?
Again, my apologies; I'm just having trouble visualizing this.
give tme the height of your walls, the overhang of the roofs, and the height of the beam the porch roof will sit on, and I will draw a picture.
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I'll get that for you; I'm in the process of sawing off the old soffitt system now.
I also tried to find a picture online; The best I could come up with is a picture from the June/July 2002 FH; Remodeling a Cape by Howard Pruden, which has an exact picture of what I'm doing; looks like the rake just dead-ends into the lower-pitched hip.
Thanks again for all of your responses; I figured it out, and yes, they die off into the hip. Now I've got a second question.
I sawed off the front of the house (soffitt/overhang), which, well, sucked. Anyhow, after doing the calculations on the first post, this roof really 'should' be higher than it is. In the picture below, you can see that I've sawed off part of the roof, and I'm ready to add rafters. But pushing the rafters up to the top of the roof (which is pretty common, both in new construction and in remodels), will push the whole thing up about 8 needed inches. However, I'm concerned about the hip. A hip is nothing more than a bump 'up' on a roof to turn a corner; that is, as this roof approachs the corner, it'll have to turn 90' and keep going the opposite direction; the hip is dual-angled rafter, right at the point of the corner, going down to meet the beams coming from both directions. It's a 45' angle that bisects that intersection. It also is in plane with the two roofs; the one coming from one end of the house, and the roof coming from the other. Easy enough; right? On most hips, you'd simply have a ledger board on one side of the house, and a ledger board on the other side of the house that meet (obviously they're at the same height). And then the two outward beams (on the posts), are at the same level, and meet. What this does is put everything in the same plane, so the roof, from one end to the other and around the corner, look the same. Okay goodie. But on this sort of arrangement, you'll have one side of the house that has a regular ledger with a 4/12 pitch cut (18 1/2 degrees). Then you have this roof with the rafters coming off of the OLD roof (which is 10/12 pitch, or 39 3/4 degrees).So the question is; if you run an entire row of rafters, as depicted at the bottom on this side of the house, and a regular ledger up against the house on the other side of the house WITH THE TOP OF THE LEDGER AT THE POINT OF THESE RAFTERS, and cut like normal rafters, will the two sides be in the same plane? In other words; knowing how a regular hip roof works, will this result in a regular hip roof, or some strange preambulation that I don't know about?
[URL=http://i12.photobucket.com/albums/a201/JasonMI/roofrafter.jpg][IMG]http://i12.photobucket.com/albums/a201/JasonMI/th_roofrafter.jpg[/IMG][/URL]
Jason, I think you may have misconceived the basic design of this porch roof. Wrap-around porches such as you describe are very common up here on both hip- and gable-roofed farmhouses of the English style (as opposed to the Habitant style).
But the porch roof does not come off the main roof slope; it's built out from the building wall, tucked up under the eaves and wrapping around the corners with separate, independent hips that never touch the main roof.
If the house is built with a hip roof, the porch roof is tucked under the eaves all around. If it's built with a gable roof, the porch roof wraps around the same way, but on the end walls it simply runs across the top of the first-story wall below the gable.
The trim of the main roof and the porch roof are completely independent. They never meet.
Dinosaur
A day may come when the courage of men fails,when we forsake our friends and break all bonds of fellowship...
But it is not this day.
Ummm.....not on this one. This is a remodel; it can't work the way you describe, or the ceiling would be way, way too low.
It could be a problem if the building wall isn't a full eight feet to the top plates, but the slope on a lot of those porch roofs was very shallow, sometimes as little as 1 in 12. So, by the time you get 9 feet out (to cover an 8-foot wide porch), you're only down 9 inches, which isn't bad if you started as close to 8 feet as possible.
Often, to preserve an open feeling under the porch roof, there was no soffit installed. If there was, it was laid up the slope of the rafters, not on ceiling joists parallel to the deck.
Obviously, though, if you build a roof that shallow, you'll have to give it full coverage with a self-adhesive membrane.
Dinosaur
A day may come when the courage of men fails,when we forsake our friends and break all bonds of fellowship...
But it is not this day.
I'm sorry, I apologize; we're having a real misconnect here. Can you answer my quesstion about hips that I asked?
Actually, I found your original question a bit tricky to follow. Sorry. Can you post a drawing of what your problem is? That might clear this up.
Dinosaur
A day may come when the courage of men fails,when we forsake our friends and break all bonds of fellowship...
But it is not this day.
Thanks; I really didn't understand it, either; and that's the problem. However, I'm squared away now. Thanks again.
Good luck. Post a photo of the finished job; a lot of us are curious to see what exactly it is that you're building out there....
Dinosaur
A day may come when the courage of men fails,when we forsake our friends and break all bonds of fellowship...
But it is not this day.
without a picture, I can't follow your problem either
Welcome to the Taunton University of Knowledge FHB Campus at Breaktime. where ... Excellence is its own reward!
I think I may be following you.....
Here's a house a I built about 3 years ago.... is it something like this?
Beautiful house, Diesel. What's with the ghost in the last picture, though? ; )
That's 100% exactly what I'm talking about. That hip detail was really nagging me, but I think I have it figured out now. I might be back.....so please watch this thread if I have any questions. And thanks again.
How'd you make out?
Interesting; I'm sure I posted a reply already, but it doesn't show up.
Oh well; here's what happened; quite frankly, the rake or overhang just dead-ins right into the roof. Doesn't matter what the pitches are, where they are; they just go. I've seen about 20 houses around here (now that I've been looking), and they all do that. Big problem I ran into was the irregular hip on the porch. Didn't help that I had a total #### of a neighbor who'd stand there and tell me how wrong it was, how posts had to be moved, blah, blah, blah. One side of the hip (the rafters), were about 8" longer than the other on a similar pitch. As I pointed out, I'm very bad at math. So I used a lot of string lines and my bevel square to lay all the angles out. I even cut each jack seperately, but it turned out okay.
Again, I appreciate everyone's help on this.
I dont think this is really that common a framing detail. It is a little hard to visualize ( at least it doesnt come naturally too me). To help visualize, try building a model roof out of paper ( or cardboard...use old cereal boxes) and tape. Start with your 10/12 roof with no overhang ( or rake as you are calling it), then tape on your 4/12 wrap around porch roof. Then add on what will be your 12" rake or overhang. Hope this helps in visualizing it.
We will be/are supposed to be doing something similiar to what you are doing. What Im not to sure with/ dont like is what the cornice detail will look like at the overhang/porch roof intersection. It just dont feel "right" to me.
-m2akita