ok, this is going to be long, so let me give a pre-emptive apology for the length. i feel the need to complain about something, and ask a few questions while im at it…
anyway, im 23, and i frame in and around Charlotte, NC. i grew up in a small place called the Eastern Shore of VA. its a peninsula about 10 miles wide, and 100 miles long. consequently, theres not much for someone to do after school. if you dont go to college, basically, you become either a carpenter or you work on the water. thing is, being a carpenter is considered a pretty noble field up there. assuming you land yourself a job with a good general contractor, you end up building really nice, fairly big houses. they seem to take a lot more pride up there in what they do than the folks ive worked for since moving here at 21. my main reason for moving here was to learn how its done in the city. see how they go so much faster than we did. then, take what i learned back home, and go into business. but, its been strange since ive framed here. i mean, there were problems i never ran into, until moving here. stupid problems, like realizing after sticking 10 or so rafters, that the room youre framing over is 2 inches out of square. top plates not being tight, and worse yet, left and nailed anyway, having to measure each rafter going up a hip or down a valley, one by one, plywood not being nailed enough, etc, etc… i could go on for hours about how badly almost everything is done. i know that im naturally gonna think that the way i learned to do things is better than something theyre trying to push on me, but im really being serious. i worked for one custom framer here for quite a while. they did pretty good work, but still not great. he retired, so i had to find a new job. the guy i work for now… oh my goodness… crap. pure crap. we build garbage. im ashamed to do many of the things im told to do. thankfully, i spend most every day with a saw in my hand, and i dont have to have my name attached to the ladder rafter with a 3 inch bow in it, the “deadwood” nailers and crown blocking, rather than solid blocking, and bridging, or the 10 ft. walls, with no blocking in them.
anyway, now i know how they go so fast here in the city, and i have to say… im thoroughly unimpressed. i came with a goal to take what i knew, combine it with what i learned, take it home, and hopefully have some success with it. now, i have a slightly different goal. my goal now is to take what i know about how to do things right, and show these so called framers how its done, and hopefully have some success with it, right here. as it stands now, im “self employed”. i also have to pay my own workmans comp. the way i see it… i might as well be out on my own. problem is… im only 23…
so, my questions are… how many of you guys are in business for yourself? how old were you when you went out on your own? how did you get the ball rolling? all i know is building houses. i know nothing of business, and/or marketing. in a perfect world id find someone else to partner up with. let them run the business, and let me run the on site duties. i can only assume that if i did it, id have to start off doing odd, one off remodeling jobs, until i got my name around. im guessing it would be tough to land myself in a spot to be framing custom homes right off the get go. the other problem aside from age and lack of business sense is lack of tools, such as ladders and guns. i have a compressor, but no guns. i figure if i really put my mind to it though, i could have enough tools to get started within a couple years. i dont know… but, please, give me any input you can. any advice you can give me would be greatly apprecciated. i really hate doing work that i know is wrong. im on a quest to do it for myself, and do it right. thanks for reading all of this, i know its long
Replies
It might be long but dang it did my heart good to read it!!!
There is hope in this world when we still have young bucks trying to do it right.
You remind me of me way back when...
I'm too tired to say much more tonight but for starters, try looking at several of the threads in the business section. You can open it up by clicking on the blue bar on your left screen frame that says business.
we're going to set you up like Steve Merette, Jeff Buck, and a few others who preceded you here. Those boys are doing fine!
Get a subscription to the Journal of Light Construction to read too.
JLCOnline.com
Welcome to the
Taunton University of Knowledge FHB Campus at Breaktime.
where ...
Excellence is its own reward!
I'm over in Chapel Hill. I wish you all the luck in the world. But I gotta add, if you're the cut man and things are coming out wacked, double checkng measurements from the measurer and measuree sometimes helps
Don't worry, we can fix that later!
Don't get discouraged, hacks are everywhere.
They can get away with it for many reasons, but you don't have to stay with them.
Move on to another crew, find someone who does the kind of work you aspire to and learn from them.
Working with butchers sucks, especially when they make more doing it wrong than you do for right.
No tools is not good,find a job that pays enough to buy some.
There are guys on Breaktime in your area, even a guy who builds concrete clouds. Stick a post in the Help Wanted section here.
Good luck, Joe H
"as it stands now, im "self employed". i also have to pay my own workmans comp. the way i see it... i might as well be out on my own. problem is... im only 23..."
You say you're wanting to know what it takes to go into business for yourself but I get the sense that you are currently working as part of a framing crew or directly for a builder.
If that's true, then you should know that worker comp is paid solely by the employer, NOT by the employee. It can not be deducted from your paycheck or billed to you. There are a number of threads in the business folder you need to read so get comfy in your chair, brew up some coffee and start reading. Click on everything, take notes and then jump back in with your questions.
Being "only 23" means you have a long time in front of you to recover from your mistakes. You are not pressed for time. Nothing has to happen overnight.
Most here will say go for it. If you think your hands on skills would be a strong point then definitely find someone you can trust to be the "business guru" but do learn as much as you can so you won't be snowed or plowed under by mistakes. If you want to be a framing contractor you will need employees or partners. You can't frame - efficiently and profitably - by your lonesome. You will need to invest in the best tools you can afford. Better yet, just get the best. You will need to think about capitalization. That means having the bucks up front to start your business and to keep it and you going until more comes in than goes out.
Try to find a mentor. Someone willing to take the time to help or point the way. This forum is full of helpful folks and there may even be one in your area who you could actually meet and would be willing to be that mentor.
Cloud, you want to show this guy that all houses are NOT built with sticks???<G>
shtick,
One thing you have going for you out of the gate is this forum. I've only recently discovered it, and have already put some of this info to good use. I wished this would have been around when I started in 1991.
I was 25 when I started, and owned my basic hand and power tools, but no scaffold, brake, compressor, guns etc.
So how did I get the ball rolling?
Before I left my last employer, I went thru a University extention course, which was pretty useless. They pretty much just brought up all the reasons to fail, but not a heck of a lot about doing anything about it. I also was paired with an advisor from SCORE (Service Corps of Retired Executives), and did learn a little bit from him.
1. Keep your bills paid. 2.Use 20 billable hours per week to set your rates to start. 3. You will have higher highs and lower lows than you ever thought possible.
I also did a lot of reading.
After giving my 2 weeks notice I let the plumbers and electricians that I had worked with know I was going on my own. I had about 6 weeks of work lined up when I started. After 6 weeks passed, I had no work lined up. Time to read a lot of marketing and sales, and start advertising. Slowly pulled out of it, but pi##ed away $9K out of savings learning how not to do it.
My biggest break came when I started doing installs and service work for a high end cabinet shop. While I made out OK from them, the real bonus was the additional work I picked up at the houses I worked on. At least 1 out of 3 cabinet jobs I picked up additional work. I also began to get reference work from a local lumberyard for window and door installation. Those jobs turned additional work maybe 1 out of 5 times.
To overcome the age barrier, I tried to always look professional. Clean shaven, hair combed, jeans w/o holes, no cut off shorts, collared work shirts, tools in boxes and chests, not crammed into 5 gallon pails, clean truck, drop cloths, no swearing on sites, and classical music on the radio.
There is lots more but I'll end there for now.
>Cloud, you want to show this guy that all houses are NOT built with sticks???<G>
<G> right back at ya.
Funny thing is, I just got the retainer today for a design for Chapel Hill. Maybe this guy'll pop on over and join the builder's crew. Maybe I'll be able to get Bucksnort Billy involved!!! Maybe they'll run short of tile and call you for the missing piece!
Thinking about throwing me a curve? <G>
Let me know when you plan to make a site visit, and if you need anybody with some local knowledge, I'll see if I can find someone. LOL
Seriously, call me if you need anything. See, you already got me involved ;-) Don't worry, we can fix that later!
Maybe maybe maybe....
boy have you got your head in the Clouds
<G>
Welcome to the Taunton University of Knowledge FHB Campus at Breaktime. where ... Excellence is its own reward!
"Try to find a mentor. Someone willing to take the time to help or point the way. "
Ralph,
Excellent words of advice to Shtick. IMO, the three keys to success in life are education, a desire to learn, and a good mentor.......Luck also helps too, and there are thing you can to to increase your odds.
Jon
BTW, those grapefruit are GOOOOOOD!!!
I'm sure you will get many responses from those of us who have had the same experiences. I was 19 when I started working as a carpenter for a small company in Maine. I'm 54 and still at it but I'm the boss. You are working for a butcher and you have to leave before you get hurt. Why are you paying your own workers comp? That is illegal! Look around for a good builder if this is the path you choose. They will probably be anxious for a motivated and experienced person. Start moonlighting if you aren't already. One job will usually lead to another. Learn to keep records. There are usually night courses at the local university or college just for starting businesses. You can contact SCORE for advice and links to other sources. Get active in the community, join the Lions, volunteer at a Habitat house or other such activities. This will expand your circle of friends and contacts. You need to do some research on laws, regulations and licencing for your state. Open a checking account and keep it separate for your work. Pay for everything out of it and put what you make into it, this will give you an automatic written record. You also have to have your ducks in a row for OSHA. Good information is available through your states Department of Labor. If you don't know how to swim I would not recommend going off the deep end first. It takes at least five years of good and varied experience to become a solid journeyman. Every five years after that you will discover just how little you actually know. As long as you do what you say you'll do, for what and when you said you'd do it, you will be in demand.
Great artical very well said, I would like to share some life exp that i have had in the past. You sound like you have a lot of guts thats good. I had started when i was in school and i was 13 yrs old and working for contractors on the week end and in the summer to learn the trade. One thing i will say it is good to work with many people in the trade i am a carpenter and a job super also 42 yrs old. When i was a kid learning the trade some people were very good to me and showed me and others would not. When you work for other people you get to know how things are done snd to see some people do things. Some are better than others of course even till this day i will stop at a job site and look at thing to learn. I also ask question also you should never be to proud to ask any thing.
Till to date i have some times have to do things in the trade that i wonder what the person is thinking. If the person should ask what do you think i will say. As a job super i have seen alot of things go on.One thing i will say if i see somthing very dangerouse i will say something. In the past i have had to go to court for things happend on the site. Some people work very unsafe what a shame. Try to learn by asking question not by mistakes it coud be very costly As time goes on you will get a thick skin this term is used in the ind . I wish you good luck
Are you kidding me, Man just look at your talents. Not only are you a saw dust maker, you can also communicate. You've got great attitude and your on your way to a good place.
Put your health first, protect your eyes and ears and body. All else will follow.
It is not a criminal offence to enjoy your work.
Clay
Plus get back with me cause I'm lookin to clear a couple of years worth of Remodel mag and builder mag from my shelves.
Nothing like having a good library to learn and reference.
Maybe like pay the shipping?or some such.
I agree but you are fighting a uphill battle.
The average homeowner wants as much for as little as they can get.. the average contractor wants as much for as little as they can do.. the average worker wants as much for as little as they can do..
The victum in all of those formula's is quality..
Really great crews can build extremely quickly while being accurite.. if they have all the correct equipment, everything is there on time, the weather co-operates and things in general go their way..
But when it doesn't they simply can't be as fast.. Yet often the schedule demands that..
In a small town it may not matter if you are at the school exactly on time to pick up your kids.. Thus if you spend an extra 45 minutes redoing something or ensuring that it's done exactly correct, you kids may not be in danger..
In a small town too if the house is completed a few days late it may not have any affect, while in a major metro area there are all kinds of things that happen and none of them are any good.
Part of learning has to also be learning what is acceptable and what is not. If I go to Calif. with my method of building I'd be broke.. Yet here in Minnesota it produces a quality home..
I visited a friends tract home just before it was sheetrocked. I was shocked at the problems and shortcomings I saw.. (luckily I kept my mouth shut) Today those same homes are held up as an example of quality building and my friend hasn't had a moments trouble in the two decades he's owned it..
My point is not to say that you are wrong, merely to suggest that at 21 you may still need to learn a few things..
Maybe we all need to learn something!
I have been coming to the conclusion that we are going to have to start the Draft up again. Yep were going to draft the children of all Americans, Yep at the 1st grade when there minds are not polluted with BS. There prime job will be to mandate management of the house and the senate. Then hopefully our system will start operating on the principals of physics and integrity instead of the Critical mass of BS.
Clay
Hmmm, let me see you'd have the children taken from their homes at first grade and educated by ,.... someone.... untill they all think like you? seems that it's beentried on a regular basis.. I know they tried it in Germany prior to WW2 and they really tried it in the former Soviet union..
Still doesn't work!
People are people. their values and quaities vary.. the wood homes are made from vary too! some trees are nice and straight while some contain what is called reaction wood..
when you combine those tow things there will be differances.. It's what makes life so interesting..
I think you miss interpreted what I was saying.
Have the kids make the decisions/manage before they get educated/corrupted.
A very big part of the trouble is the parents.. My dad never wanted to do anything like building. He came from a background where his dad was a machinist and he looked up to the kids who came from homes where their dad's went to work in a white shirt..
I've learned how to do things not with his help but rather over his very strong objections..
Some kids don't evan have that.. their dad isn't around and mom is too busy earning a living to be of much use, that or worse!!!!
Dude, I have LONG time friend on the eastern Shore..Machipongo abouts..if ya go home , look him up..he'll get ya going..ya sound like hiss kinda student.. Marshall Schwenk..he's got work..looking fer a breathing helper. Top notch craftsman..I've known him and worked with him for over 20 yrs. He's in the book I think.
Spheramid Enterprises Architectural Woodworks
Repairs, Remodeling, Restorations.
Good Luck , I've been framing for over 20 years and can tell you that you will run into more hacks than not. I recently hired on with a high end company in Denver and the first job I was on the lead carpenter found his rafter lenght by butting the dumb end of his tape to the ridge and measuring to the wall. Needless to say I'm on my own again. Try checking your local community college as they usually have classes for small business owners. Also there is a website called SERVICE MAGIC.COM. I use it here in Denver. You sign on with them it costs nothing and they put you in touch with clients looking for whatever. They take their cut when you contact a potential client. The only requirement is you must have liability insurance, which you will need anyway. Don't despair with your attitude you will succeed!
"the first job I was on the lead carpenter found his rafter lenght by butting the dumb end of his tape to the ridge and measuring to the wall."
Yer confusin' me
that makes it hard to tell which end of the tape is the dummy end
;)
Welcome to the Taunton University of Knowledge FHB Campus at Breaktime. where ... Excellence is its own reward!
Ya man. We all know it's alot more accurate to hold the board up there.Huh
gggggg
And upside down so you can actually measure from the long point where it hits the top of the ridge.
Now all the big secrets are getting out.
Shtick,
Take out a large ad in either the Pennysaver or local paper and advertise "just framing".
You'll be shocked how many calls you'll get because everyone wants to do their own work but most DIYers can't frame.
Also many smaller builders don't want to be bothered with large framing jobs.they need it done fast and right.
Also....when you specialize in individual specialized trades that take serious skill, there aren't all that many.
You might be shocked how many calls you get, especially now that the weathers nice out and people are feeling motivated to add on/build.
Be well and the best of luck to you (not that you'll need luck)
andy
My life is my passion!
http://CLIFFORDRENOVATIONS.COM
Shtick, whatever you decide, go to the business folder and read till you drop.
Your framing skills matter not when it comes to running a business.
Those little pieces of paper will eat you alive if you don't get a handle on them.
And don't forget the licenses, whatever you need where you are.
Joe H
I'll go along with Joe on this, paperwork is often the differance between making a profit and losing one (and I HATE paperwork!)
Staying busy is a variety of factors.. first market yourself! figure out that a certain percentage of your budget will go towards sales and marketing.. Sure I know you just wantt to build stuff but... you can't build stuff if you aren't called.
It's hard when you are busy to stop and do some marketing but those that do are busy when things get slow.. those that build right up to the point or almost the point of the end of their work suddenly look up and find nothing!
Simple magnetic signs that go on the door of your pickup to start.. eventually you'll want signs on your fork lift, trailer, and compressor and anything you have..
Don't be afraid to think outside the box here. When you drive to where you meet the customers what kind of car/ truck is it? A nicely restored old pickup can be a real calling card.. One of the local builders here has an Old Model A pick-up that he uses for that purpose. Then every parade he there with the name of his company in front of local residents.. (frankly I think he should buy a woodie)
Company jackets and pens and such should come later since they seldom really reach the people who are looking untill too late..
Here in Minnesota framers build under the contractors license unless they are licened contractors themselves..
Frenchy is right, you'll want your name on that forklift first thing.......
Frenchy, have you priced woody wagons lately?
View Image
Contact
Ad Number:
1962
Seller's user name:
jalveberg << Click user name to send a message
For more info call:
James
Location:
Vernon, BC, Canada Canada
Phone:
xxx-xxx-xxxx
Details
Price:
$ 140,000.00 USD
Description
This Woodie is a fresh car with less then 300 miles, and brand new from top to bottom. The engine is a ZZ4 350 / 355 HP GM Performance. C/W Aluminum heads, water pump, mini starter. Mooneyes Aluminum valve covers and air cleaner. Aluminum Griffin radiator, Sanderson Hugger Headers, Stainless Mufflers, Ceramic Coated Exhaust. The Chassis Is A TCI Stage III, Powder Coated With Stainless Front Suspension, 11" Disc Brakes, Wilwood Calipers. Rear Has Ford 9" 3.00 Gears, Leaf Springs, With 11" Drums. The Flawless Wood was Installed By Heiden Wood Working Of Encinitas CA, Maple Frame, Birch Paneling With 8 Coats Of Spar Marine Varnish. The Interior Has Aluminum Ididit Tilt Column, Vintage Air, Classic Instruments, Lecarra Banjo Steering Wheel, And Custom Auto Sound. CD System. Interior Has Leather Console To Match The Leather And Mohair Seats. The Haartz Cloth Top Was Installed By Auto International Of Escondido, CA. Body Work, Black PPG Paint, was Provide By Street Dreams Auto Restoration. No Expense Spared On this 6 Year Project, Which Is The Best Of The Best. Serious Calls Only.NO EMAIL ADDRESS PLEASE PHONE
Edited 4/17/2004 11:35 am ET by JoeH
Grab a copy of Hemmings and you'll be able to buy a woodie for about the price of a new minivan.. Sure there are cars available for much more and sometimes they evan get it!!
I think the No expenses spared part of the ad should give enough warning..
I saw a nice Rolls Royce shooting brake (woodie wagon for you uninformed types) sell at the Barret Jackson auction for $33,000 a few years ago and those auction prices always seem a little strong compared to street prices.
A decent Model A woodie is hard pressed to get over $25,000 and those needing new wood can be bought around $5,000. I have a Model A pickup that I bought for $3,000. I intend to buy an aftermarket body kit for and turn it into a woodie (model A's never have any serial numbers so it's just as proper as an Original)
Shtick,
Before you jump with both feet, Take a long hard look at what you don't know yet. The Business end of this will eat you alive if you don't learn it inside and out. Learn everything you can.
Also, Don't jump too soon. Have a plan. When I went out on my own (the first time) I was sick of all the Bullsh## where I worked. A friend of mine was a stair and rail installer. He said if I wanted to learn I could follow him around for a few weeks. Took him up on it. in the middle of week two his wife had a baby. He came in a few days later and showed me the last few tricks I needed and said " good luck, I'm gonna take a few weeks off. Have fun"
I hunted down a customer or two and off I went. Worked like dog. Money was coming in. Jobs were getting done. I was building a reputation as a guy who could fix any problem. I was the number one guy for two different shops. I had work lined up for months.
Here's the bad part. I was so involved with the work I never realized a few things.
#1. I was getting $300.00 per day. If the job ran long I could squeeze a few extra bucks out of it. Take your expenses out of $300 and then divide by 9( my normal work day). Not pretty is it.
#2 I had given up control of my life. every night there would be a pile of jobs on my fax machine. Everyone needed their job done now. And, after all they were valued customers. Had to keep them happy. I was working like 14 hours a day 7 days a week.
#3 I didn't have much money saved at the time so I was doing what paid quickly. Not what paid best. I could have made a fair amount more if I was trimming or doing some small framing jobs. But in my mind I needed to keep the cash coming in. And stair and rail installs was the best way in my mind.
#4 I wasn't doing anything to build a business. Like it says in the E-Myth Contractor ( yes I got sucked into reading that nonsense, Don't waste your money), I owned a job not a business.
Take your time and Learn all you can. You have already learned you don't want to be a big city framer. Fix that now. Don't go any farther into a journey that you don't intend to complete. Now go find a guy you want to be like and learn as much as you can. Be honest with yourself about what it is you want. and then come up with a plan to make that happen.
Don't be in a rush to buy things like ladders and compressors. At least not while you are on someone elses job. I made that mistake. You are an employee. Supply your own hand tools and maybe a sawzall, circular saw, levels and such. Save your money so you'll have nice new stuff when you strike out on your own. Might not be able to afford much for the first few years so it might as well be new to start with.
The number one lesson I never learned is this. I was happiest when I was the lead on a small framing crew that did high end custom work. When we tried to compete with production guys on production jobs it got reall not fun in abiog hurry. Do what makes you happy and all else will fall into place. Money, life, everything else will be that much better if you are happy with yourself.
Sounds like a song I kinda remember.
Be Happy, don't Worry