I’m in the final stages of reconstructing a 100 year old porch on my house in MA. The old deck & framing is gone, and the new framing is almost done (2x10PT, 16OC, joists parallel to house). I’ve made my final decision on the decking and want to give everyone a chance to straighten me out if I’m headed in the wrong direction. I’ve studied this to death and finally overcome my analysis paralysis, so this is it:
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1. 1X4 Ipe, running perpendicular to house (8-10′ lengths), face screwed / countersunk with glue/sawdust filler (John Hyatts method). 2. No glue (I think the screws will hold it – 2 per joist, every 16″ – if I was using x6, I would probably glue – but otherwise, I’ll just get glue everywhere and make a mess, so I’m skipping it) Any further advise or comments (from anyone?) That’s it – away we go … I hope to have framing completely done this weekend, then wood delivered Monday and let it acclimate a week (under cover) before installation. Wish me luck – I’ll post pix when it’s done … thanks all … Bill. |
Replies
Since you are using gapped decking, there will be exposure of any wall framing, sills, etc. that are under the deck to moisture coming through it (I understand that the joists are PT). Around here porch decks are usually 1x4 t&g vertical grain fir. The t&g material creates a deck that water doesn't get through, and the joinery also creates a nice stiff surface. I have used Ipe once on a job and it is able to span longer than normal joist spacing, so your 1x4 should work fine without being tongue-and-groove. Is there any framing or anything else down there vulnerable to water?
I'm installing a new porch deck shortly over conventional lumber framing, and will treat all of the decking with Smith & Co. epoxy sealer on all sides. It's sloped 1/8" per foot to shed water, and the porch wall on the low side is going to be built 4" above the deck without contact, so water can travel through freely. This is to replace one where the wall was on the deck and the whole thing rotted out.
Hi David - T&G fir is certainly appealing - nice looking, easier to work with than Ipe. That said, I kind of like the idea of a gap, so the water can run through. I did pitch the framing 1" over 8', though, to make sure it runs off.
There's nothing underneath that I'm worried about - PT2x10s sitting on PT6x6 posts sitting on 8" sauna tubes, 4' deep. Ledger on house is flashed & counterflashed, and with a 8-10' overhang, I'm not going to see all that much water under there anyhow. Skirt around the deck will be some kind of lattice work, applied at the end - probably PT if I think I can get it to take a white stain, with fascia boards made of that white composite stuff (Avex, or something like that).
Thanks for the response ... Bill.
Bill,
Put some hinges on that lattice skirt so that my family can crawl under if there is a tornado warning. Your porch would be the last thing standing. LOL
I have not used it but Tenduraplank might be worth a look. It's a composite t&g product that resemble t&g fir. It's been used on some historical renovations. Maybe some folks who have used it might chime in with some feedback. It looks promising.
http://www.tendura.com/home.htm
You might want to look at one of the invisible fastener systems. I just used "Deckmaster" on a 5/4x6 composite deck and it looks pretty sharp.
Al Mollitor, Sharon MA
Hi Al - Another neighbor! .... I'm in Sharon too - across from the fire station ... I think we've met ... Bill.
Are you the one with all that fancy copper flashing? That old stone foundation must keep things interesting!
Al Mollitor, Sharon MA
I've had about six porches/decks experience w/ ipe and all very good. I think you will find ( as you put each piece down ) that the 1 X 4 is incredibly stable and that under the most extreme conditions - hot direct sun and rain - the chances of cupping are very minimal. 5/4 X 4 almost non existent 5/4 X 6 chances increase and 1 X 6 start looking at # of fasteners and growth rings that said I would eliminate towards half your screwing ( this is your porch we're talkin about ) you know the sun quotient if there is some on the ends maybe two screws on that joist then one on each joist to the shade end alternating " sides " plugs would really charm your Maine boating friends
and Bill Excuuuuse me for semi - hijacking your thread but sounds like you'ld be interested too you folks w/ Sikkens experience have you used it on ipe?
myself and all clients have loved the look of ipe but am not that wild about what finishes I've put down ( three of them are totally aunatural and look great ) one a clear penofin and is just fine; another covered upstairs deck I used one I'd read about here 2 coats !/3 each spar varnish, tung oil & thinner lessening the thinner portion on last coat and the last one client put it down after installation I sent him to where I buy it & they had a Penofin special for ipe well it had enough colorant to make hemlock look like ipe and does not do it for me might say the 3 part finish is fantastic but not for all applications Sikkens anyone?
Thanks John
Thanks to all for some great info!
Al - Yup, that's me with the copper flashing. That was a tip I got here a couple weeks ago - apparently the new PT lumber reacts with aluminum flashing, so they advise against it. I got the copper for about $1 a square foot (12" x 20' roll for $20) at Cape Cod lumber. It is thin, but has a rubberized backing that seals nail holes. Nice product. (The thicker stuff at Home Depot costs about 10x as much). The stone foundation is in decent shape. I figured that it will be another 100 years before someone gets under there, so I decided to 'parge' it with mortar - there were all kinds of holes that mice/squirrels could get in (signs of nesting). Yesterday my son & I mixed and applied 500 lbs of mortar - man, it really sucked it up, but I feel better for having done it. I looked into invisible fasteners - Ipe clips / EbTys, but decided they left too big of a gap, and were too visible from above. I've seen others, but they require a fair amount of gymnastic skills to install (screwing from below). No thanks. I'll go with the SS screw (predrill, countersink), with and exterior glue/sawdust brew to fill the holes. Stop by and check it out ... I'll be out in the cold Saturday and some part of Sunday.
I'm going to 'picture frame' the flooring - one 1x4 around the outside perimeter, parallel to the house, then fill in with 1x4s perpendicular to the house. (The porch is covered, but open to the weather - someone asked). I love Bubinga, but didn't see any at my local guy (Downes & Reader in Stoughton, MA) - I like buying locally if possible. As I recall, Bubinga also has an open grain, like Oak, vs the tight grain of Ipe, so I'm not sure I'd like it.
Someone suggested 'skip' nailing - John Hyatt has mentioned that too - I think I'll try it.
My last decision is whether or not to finish it - although the manufacturer says to wait a month, I really would like to treat all 4 surfaces (plus Anchor seal on the ends) before I install it. Any thoughts on that? We're after the gray look, but if the sealer helps with stability, it's worth it.
Later .... Bill.
Hey Bill perhaps you've already finished hope not cuz I did not have success w/ one aspect remembered your saying you plan to picture frame porch
I took all precaution and consideration for two outside miters ( 2 45s for 90 on 1 X 6 ipe ) and they opened to the outside 1/4" well seasoned wood warm dry summer even pre cut miters 1/4" plus and let season as I did stairs and rails
inside miters ( even using edge biscuited and glued 9" wide boards as top tread rather thean end up w/ something say 3 1/2" wide ) look great
maybe you are just doing the eddge and not returning to the house I hope for the best John
The gray look is good. On your miters to keep them tight, biscuit and glue then screw from underneath, as you would with a Kreg jig. This will or should keep the joint tight. Ipe is a great product and sealing the ends is recommended from most suppliers. The Ipe on the Atlantic city boardwalks has been there for fifty years untreated. Shepley in Hyannis, should have ipe and bubanga if you are still interested. Bubanga is supplied to dealers from Coastal Lumber in NH. If your dealer doesn't have it I bet they have an account with Coastal. Bubanga the last time I checked was cheaper than ipe, with the same properties though, hence the suggestion. Good Luck.............
I wish I was done already, but .... sigh ... I'm very slow at this. Didn't get the framing done this weekend ... but hopefully THIS weekend it will be done, then order the decking Monday.
Thanks for the feedback on the picture framing / mitered corners. One thing I have going for me is that all of the corners will be covered by a post base, with less than an inch of decking exposed on the outside of that. So whatever I do won't be very visible. I considered biscuiting and gluing the miters, but my experience is that the more you try to prevent wood movement, the more trouble you get into. I considered eliminating the miters all together, just running one board parallel to the house (with end grain exposed), then everything else perpendicular to that, but I'm not sure that will look right - the porch has a 90 turn in it (wraps around the house), so I have to miter that corner, plus it jogs out in one section (where the stairs attach), so I think I need to miter that too. So my current plan is to cut miters, deliberately leave a gap, champher the edges where they come together, and screw it down, recognizing that the gap will open and close seasonally. I'm also going to champher the 90 degree cuts where the perpendicular boards meet the perimeter board, and 'herring-bone' the deck boards around the corner on the deck (vs a long miter cut). Some of this is inspired by "A furniture-grade deck", FHB 106, pg90.
Finally, I will anchor-seal all end cuts, and I'm still on the fence about Penefin on all faces - can't decide between that and leaving it untreated, but the weather may dictate that decision - if it's too cold and/or wet in the next two weeks, I'll just skip the finish.
Thanks for all the input ... Bill.
Bill,
What about 'picture framing' around each column base independently. Actual column could rest on inset PT block(or whatever), since this part would be hidden by the decorative base. Less expansion and contraction with short pieces. You could even use a 'non-wood' material for this if you wanted. Everything else on deck would then become square cuts. Might be easier overall.
As a bonus, you could put the columns in without being dependent upon completion of the decking. Also, it may be easier for your kids to replace deck boards at some point [way] in the future if they do not run under the posts.
Just some ideas off the cuff...
It's getting cold!
Edited 11/12/2003 9:47:13 AM ET by csnow
Hey all -
Well, it's almost done & I couldn't be happier! Working with Ipe has been almost a religious experience - it's hard to describe how spectacular that wood is. I'll attempt to attach a couple photos below.
So .. I used 4/4 1x4, pre-drilled with 1/8 clear hole, with a counter sink bit - this created a shallow/wider hole than i really liked, but with some practice (and I got PLENTY of practice), I was able to control the size of the counter sink. I made a bunch of rookie mistakes, but I think all are recoverable (the worst was shearing off a lot of screws in their holes, until i figured out that the pilot hole wasn't all the way through the Ipe) I put two in the ends, then alternated sides, one per joist. That worked out well - assuming nothing moves in the next 6 months, I should be fine. There are a couple spots where the flooring doesn't lay perfectly flat - in the areas where I went over a beam, despite the use of a power planer to get everything in a plane, you can see a little hump - I think I'll unscrew those and re-plane underneath to get it right.
I started using my elec drill to screw them in - nearly impossible to control the depth - CSNOW took pity and brought over a cordless impact driver (thanks neighbor!) ... what a difference! As soon as I got that, the installation went really well.
I herring-boned the corner, using a nice carbide round-over bit to get the ends of the boards to match the edges ... worked perfectly - hope that comes out in the pix. I decided to skip the miter corners (thanks for that advice!), and just used "breadboard" ends. Looks perfect.
Next step - columns, then a long, scotch-assisted winter's nap. In the spring, I'll think about sealing it, railings, skirt, ceiling, roof, etc. ...
Edited 2/6/2004 8:13:00 AM ET by Bill
Bill
Nice work but you better re-size, some people still have dial up and it will take them forever to load.
If you dont have the ability to resize try Irfanview, its free and very easy to use.
Like the porch.
Doug
Thanks for the suggestion Doug ... here are the photos, resized .... Bill.
All - Now that the worst of the frigid weather has passed (I hope!), I need to get back out there and tie up the loose ends.
Of the thousands of stainless screws I used (#6, square head drive), there are a dozen or so that I stripped while their heads were slightly proud of the surface - not sticking out enough to grab with vice-grips, but too high to ignore. I need ideas on how to remove them. I tried using an easy-out (reverse thread), but it doesn't bite into the stainless. I tried drilling a hole down the center of the screw to help the easy-out get a purchase, but haven't found a bit yet that will touch the stainless.
I know that the collective wisdom and experience of the folks on this board will come up with SOMETHING. Thanks ... Bill.
Gouge out the area around the screw to get a purchase with vise grips and then bore a clean hole that matches a plug cutter. Glue in the plug chisle flush and stat over.
Maybe this trick will work:
Use something like a dremel tool and grind a slot. Then try using a flat head screwdriver to remove the screw.
Several of the woodworking tool catalogs have what they call screw extractors. They look like miniature hole saws that you chuck in a reversible drill.
You didn't say how long the screw is, nor how far they are standing proud. If you can get them about 1/4 - 1/2" out, take a cordless drill, open the chuck far enough to slip over the head of the screw, tighten the chuck, put the drill in reverse and squeeze the trigger. The deeper in the chuck the better. I rebuilt a dock last summer using 3" SS screws and we had to use that little trick more often than I care to admit. But it worked every time.
I never met a tool I didn't like!
The screws are 2 1/4" long, standing proud less than 1/16" ... more than that and I could grab them with pliers ...
The dremel-tool-to-make-a-slot idea and the extractor suggestion (Googled it and found several choices) are both very helpful ... both will work.
I wonder how well the dremel tool will cut the stainless steel .. will wander over to HD and check them out - maybe there is a carbide tip version or something? I don't own one now ...
The extractor looks like a 1/4" hole saw that you drill in around the screw ... I wonder how successful that will be in Ipe ... and then I have to make 1/4" plugs ... but it's worth trying.
Thanks everyone ... and if anyone has any more thoughts, let me know ... Bill.
"The screws are 2 1/4" long, standing proud less than 1/16" ... more than that and I could grab them with pliers ..."
I've seen this porch, and it's a real work of art, otherwise, I'd suggest taking a hammer and nail set and trying to drive the screws in deeper by a fraction of an inch.
Al Mollitor, Sharon MA
You might try to use some super strength epoxy to bond the bit to the screw, and then back them out. I've had sucess with this, but only for a couple screws. Even though you have a dozen or so to remove, it still might be worth trying. Just remember, the bits are history after the epoxy sets up. A bad day at home is still better than a good day at work
Bill,
Is your porch on the front/ back/side. Covered or uncovered. Enclosed or open. Ipe is a great product. If you haven't bought it yet, look into Bubanga. It costs less and a portion of the sale goes into regrowth. Which is good. 16 o.c. is fine. any more is over kill with Ipe. The ends should definitely be sealed. Predrill and screw, with stainless in my opinion.
If the deck is to inside and under a covered porch but open to the elements from underneath, and above don't mind screening under it. If you plan on having it enclosed but open to the weather in the summer, screen under it. We all hate those gnats, skeetos, and flys in the summer. On the exterior I would always stay away from tongue and groove decking.
A 4,6 or 8 penny finish nail is good for spacing depending on the look and amount of water running over the deck. Space according to that. Less water smaller space. For asthetics you may consider a wrap or finishing board on the edges of the porch/deck so anyone walking by doesn't see end grain.
For spice try different species of wood in different areas. e.g. borders and such. It makes for a really custom look. This is especially nice if finshed and protected. Ipe, mahogany, bobanga, cedar, they all glean when finished. The "wet" look is hard to maintain though. Good Luck and happy building..............
One option to consider (though perhaps more applicable to 2x decking) is to only put one fastener per joist, vs the usual 2. This halves the number of penetrations through the lumber (and into the joists), and reduces the tendency of the wood to split as it dries (since you don't have two fasteners pulling in opposite directions).
Of course, the decking is a bit more apt to warp this way (or at least to show warp), but you can put the initial fasteners in zig-zag (left side on one joist, right side on the next) and then come back later and add more fasteners if a given board warps.
The ideas from this site continuously amaze me - Al. the nail set might actually work ... might try one that way
The epoxy idea is intriguing - might be worth a trial
Dan - i did use the zig-zag nailing method ... glad i did - no indication (after a couple months) that the overall result suffered from leaving out half the nails
Keep the idea coming - you guys rock! thanks, Bill.
Did an Ipe deck last summer..same problem. I used the 3/16 flat nose punch and a 28oz hammer..one GOOD whack.
Go Stab yourself Ya Putz! Ya think I Parked here?
Sphere - You were using screws too? It's certainly not intuitive that a hammer / punch would work, but if you and Al are both suggesting it, I'll certainly give it a try.
Thanks ... Bill.
Bill, I have had good luck with stripped phillips head screws using the following technique - drilling with an eighth inch bit and then inserting a square drive tip into the hole and backing the screw out... I suppose your screw may require a larger hole and a large square drive tip... perhaps an torx bit would work as well...
At the very least this should allow you to back it out far enough to grab it with pliers... Just don't drill too deep or the head can snap off.
Adrian
yes, #1 phillips Sq. dr....we pre drilled all holes even. 5/32 with a slight counter sink..going into PT framing..most we could get back out with the Vise grips, but a dozen or so..out of a few hundred..needed mashing in. they'll bend a little and compress but ya can get them flush or below.
Go Stab yourself Ya Putz! Ya think I Parked here?