“We” decided to replace 150 sq ft of entryway and kitchen 9″ ceramic tiles with 18″ porcelain travertine look-alike tiles set diagonally. Substrate is concrete slab. Entry is 3’9″ wide, kitchen width is 4’9″ with oak cabinets on both sides. There’s a 6″ step down in two doorways to Pergo laminate floor, and 10′ of step-down to carpet.
I want to do the job over 4 days starting Super Bowl weekend while DW is off skiing with her gal friends.
What method do you guys recommend for removing the old tiles and thinset with minimal dust problem and no damage to the adjacent Pergo?
What method do you recommend for leveling the floor before setting new tiles. With 18″ tiles set diagonally and 1/16″ grout joints, there’s not as much play allowed to get tiles flush with one another as with the old 9″ tiles set square with 1/4″ grout line.
Thanks in advance
Replies
Lay rosin paper over adjacent floors and walls using 3M blue tape (the one with the orange core). Then protect these floors with 1/8" masonite (4' x 8').
Apply the same blue tape on the door casings (one side/ face) and then tape 1ml plastic sheet on the doorway to limit the dust.
Rip up old tiles with a floor scraper/ roof scraper/ ice chopper. I also find that a stiff 3" putty knife and hammer to work well. Better yet, a 5-in-1 knife. Wear gloves. The existing ceramic tiles are very sharp when broken.
Scrape off as much as you can. Go slow (the old thinset will set your pace) and be patient. Low spots are cool. High spots; not so much.
You don't need to level the floor or even make it perfectly smooth because you will (should) be using a 1/2" x 1/2" notched trowel for the 18's. The 1/2" height will address all of your remaining scabs of thinset.
The trick is to make all the tiles parallel with the subfloor, which may not be level.
Work in triangles rather than from side to side. I understand that the areas are pretty linear, but as you work you will see what I mean.
As for the edges, there are 2 schools of thought - 1) Do them as you go and 2) do them all the following day. Seems to me, when working alone, the following day is best. You will however need a "sample/ template" to temporary install to maintain spacing. 2 or 3 of these are helpful and can be rinsed off after a couple of placements. Make sure you clean all the remaining thinset from the voids or you'll start drinking early the next day.
Hope this helps.
Frankie
Flay your Suffolk bought-this-morning sole with organic hand-cracked pepper and blasted salt.
Thrill each side for four minutes at torchmark haut. Interrogate a lemon.
Embarrass any tough roots from the samphire. Then bamboozle till it's al dente with that certain je ne sais quoi.
Arabella Weir as Minty Marchmont - Posh Nosh
Setting tiles that large takes some finesse regardless of the subfloor. Have your short and long levels handy, along with straightedges, a rubber mallet, etc. Slow and steady wins the race. Check out the website for the Tuscan Leveling System if you're interested (not recommending that you use it, but it's worth seeing one way of minimizing lippage with large tiles).
Thanks for the Tuscan Leveling System tip. It's pricey for 75 tiles, but for a perfect installation it might pay for itself in time saved.Any excuse to buy some new toys, right?BruceT
I would take a look at the tile before deciding to buy anything. Open the boxes and sight the edges of a bunch of pieces. If it's all nice and flat, I'd probably start setting it. If it's got a lot of personality, I would think about how to proceed. I recently installed a floor using 12x12 slate. The pieces were NOT flat and it was NOT fun. It was a tedious process getting the corners and edges flush and it's definitely not perfect, although once I got off my knees it looked better. I also tossed about 20% of that material.
Thanks for the heads up. As it is, the tile that "we" selected is quite smooth and flat and has rectified edges.BruceT
Frankie is right-on with his advise about breaking up the old floor, but I can't stress enough his advise to wear gloves! I've been on this orb for over half a century and the only time I've need to be stitched up was when I was chipping away ceramic tiles.
Good luck.
Gloves I've got, as well as access to a friends air chisel.BruceT
JMHO never set large tile with a sixteenth inch grout joint.
As for tear up if you have a small sds rotary hammer Bosch bulldog class up to 1 1/8 use a small chipping chisel. it will give you alot more control than hand powered scrapers or bars. you cam most likely clean off most of the mortar that way as well.
I would recommend 1/8 0r 3/16 spacers. use the tavy brand that you can pick up at lowes. This may sound counter intuitive but I would also recommend custom products multiset mortar. It is the "economy" modified that you can get at Home depot, Mix it WET (Just Firm enough to hold its ridges when you trowel) and use 1/2 x 1/2 trowel at 90 deg giving you a thick soft bed to float those larger format tiles. That particular mortar has a LONG pot life so it wont firm up on you as you lay. I Find that changes in the mortar as it Cooks off is a prime cause of lippage.
This summer I was setting high end town homes with all 20x20"s, even shower walls. I set a little under 17,000 sq.ft. of large format, 50cm and up, in 08.
Craig.
Thanks for the pointers.we want the end product to look as much like travertine as possible with grout joints as close to invisible as possible. That's why I thought 1/16" joints.You suggest 1/8". Is there a particular reason not to go 1/16"?The entryway is 20' long. If the slab is flat but not level, how do you keep the tiles from rising or falling significantly along the way as you control them for lippage?ThanksBruceT
It's probably not a good idea to try to run your tiles level over an un-level slab. That will mean using a slowly increasing amount of thinset under your tiles as you work towards the low end. Can you not level the slab with SLC?
I did not mean to try to level the floor with the tiles. I just meant that if the floor is unlevel, I can't easily use a level to see that I'm not increasing or decreasing the amount of thinset under the tiles as I go along.Maybe that's not really a concern in the real world.BruceT
I would try to use a very consistent amount of thinset under every tile. Use the same notch trowel on the floor the whole time, and skim a very very thin coat of thinset onto the back of each tile. Trying to feather a floor as you go is incredibly tedious. Sometimes you can't use a level as a level, it has to settle for being a straightedge.
Bruce
Ansi standards for tile allow 3% variation in size so unless your tile is Rectified, that is it is cut to size after firing, you may get into spacing trouble going that tight, where a little larger space allows for some variation between the tile. Also trying to grout with unsanded grout in 1/16 joints on tile that large is a pain in the hiney. I suggest that you take a few tiles and space them 1/16 and 1/8 and 3/16 to see how they look. If you want the look of 1/16 then do it. tight joints mean more work for you but it may be worth the extra effort. and if you do decide to use them check the tile.
Consider using one of the new grout formulas like Custom Prism http://www.custombuildingproducts.com/ProductCatalog/Grout/prism.aspx?user=pro&lang=en they use glass beads instead of sand and the beads make the color rather than old type dies. they also allow to be used in 1/16 joints. That type of grout has a different working feel to it than others and is a little hard to get used to but where you are only using it for a single job it should not throw you off.
It's good your tiles are rectified. No way could you get 1/16 grout lines on 18" tile unless it is rectified, and I have to say you are in for a challenge. But it's not that big of a space, which is good.
Take the tile out of the boxes and lay 10 pieces tight to each other in a line. Take another 10 (randomly from the boxes) and lay them tight to each other and see if you get the same length as the other 10 tiles. If not, I suggest you go a little wider on the grout lines.
If your substrate is not level I don't think you can easily use thinset mortar on 18" tiles. I would use medium bed mortar on 18 inch tiles, particularly with an unlevel substrate. You will need to take your time setting these tiles to get them in the same plane and eliminate lippage. Backbutter the tiles. Clean the grout lines as you go because you will get squeezeout of the mortar. I would consider waiting several days to one week before grouting 18 inch porcelain tiles set in this manner because modified thinset (or modified medium bed mortar) sets in part by evaporation rather than purely by chemical reation as with unmodified mortar.
See http://www.custombuildingproducts.com/ProductCatalog/SettingMaterials/MediumBedMortars/?user=arc&lang=en
18 inch porcelain and 1/16" grout lines set on a concrete substrate makes the setting take longer. If you grout too soon the tiles may shift and/or you will get bleeding and discoloration between the uncured mortar and the grout.
As far as grout, regular sanded grout is used down to 1/8" so you might want to consider unsanded grout for 1/16" or perhaps something like Custom Prism grout which can be used down to 1/16".
I suggest you consider 1/8" or 3/16" grout lines.
Billy
From your description, I'd dare say the 18" tiles are TOO big for this application.
Those are for a Big room. 16" are for a bit smaller, 12's for the rest.
May I suggest a revisit with the tile designer?
ThanksDW is meeting the designer Monday. Maybe I'll join them and ask about smaller tile. Part of the reason is that we want minimal grout joints. That's also why I'm thinking of diagonal so one always looks across joints instead of in line with them.
BruceT
Edited 1/9/2009 5:33 pm by brucet9
Thanks for the tips, especially as to spacing as it affects mortar cure time.I'm beginning to think 1/16" will be too close, given what you and others have said. Perhaps I'll settle for 1/8" and a good grout color match.BruceT