I’ve got an interesting situation that I need some advice from you experts on. Back before we purchased our house (now 35 years old) the previous owners finished the basement and built a bookcase around the cast iron waste pipe that exits the basement to the outside. Nothing wrong with that except that these, um, idiots, decided to cut almost ALL of the hangers for this pipe to accomodate the bookcase. Therefore, this pipe has not been properly supported now for at least 20 years (the length of time we’ve lived here). The upshot is that there are sections that are sagging and causing clogs in the system. We had one plumber come out and bid $5300 to replace all of this pipe with new CI! ACK!
Other than the fact that the pipe is sagging a bit here and there, there are no leaks or cracks or any other apparent problems with it. What I’m thinking is that the existing pipe could be re-pitched, v e r y c a r e f u l l y, and restrapped to the joists. It’d be a heck of a lot cheaper than replacing it. (Of course, cutting it out and replacing it with PVC would be cheaper too.)
What I’m thinking is that I recalculate the proper pitch (based on vertical pipe from upstairs and the exit from the house), get some screw jacks – one for each pipe junction, and slowly crank it back into position over a month or two. Is this feasible? I know if I raise it too quickly I risk cracking it and breaking the lead seal(s). I figure it sunk without cracking – perhaps I can carefully raise it again without damaging it.
Any thoughts? Has anyone attempted such a feat before? Thanks.
Replies
PVC and 'No-Hub' connectors..ferget about messing with an old, crudded up inside pc. of wanna be leaking pipe.
Spheramid Enterprises Architectural Woodworks
Repairs, Remodeling, Restorations.
Thanks for the input. Hmmm, guess it's time to hit Home Depot or some other place to start looking for pipe and fittings.
Thanks.
I would forget the "save the c.i." campaign and go for "replace with pvc" one. If it's been that way for 20+ years the crud buildup has got to be pretty bad. Take the weight off of the vertical stack from under it then replace.
Thanks. Well hey, it was a thought though! In the end I'd rather the job be done right.
Regards...
"Thanks. Well hey, it was a thought though! In the end I'd rather the job be done right. "
I'm with Jeff on this. You want it right? Call the plumber back and have him re price the job in PVC.
The reason cast is so expensive is its weight, the fact its fragile and takes more time to install. Not to mention the fact it is just plain more expensive. But it is much quieter in terms of masking water flow. DanT
Well, this plumber didn't want to do PVC. He talked about the noise issue (which I can deal with because it's in the basement anyway AND in my workshop). He also said he'd prefer CI since he's just not happy with the way PVC interfaces to CI and blah blah blah. Personally I think he was just looking for a big ticket job.
The other thing I haven't checked yet is code - perhaps he's thinking that code here requires CI (and perhaps it does - I don't know).
if you start tearing out the cast iron i'd try and leave the vertical in place pvc will be noiser than ci. when you start cutting and tearing out either rent a cutter or i have used a 4 1/2" grinder with a metal cutting disk on it. takes about 4-5 mins per cut. be careful this stuff falls on your foot and you will say a few choice words! larry
replacing cast iron vent stacks is why they invented plumbers.
Jeff
Buck Construction, llc Pittsburgh,PA
Artistry in Carpentry
I speak only from theory here, but since it is a finished room, noise could well be an issue and PVC is a lot noisier that CI.
I'd consider trying (i) finding a real old (pre-wwII) home maintenance book to tell you how to do it or (ii) a real old plumber who has worked with hubbed CI, (iii) re-hang the stuff like you mentioned and (iv) repack the joints.
I think (but don't know) that you might be able to get away with just tamping them back into place, and won't need to repour the lead; but it has been years since I've actually read anything about this.
Again, this is just theory, without the benefit of any practical experience.
You might try looking around the Old House Journal site, as well.
Edited 6/9/2004 8:29 am ET by Bob Walker
Thanks for the input Bob - I may still give the repair thing a try anyway. I've got time on my side since the pipe's not going to drop any further than it already has. A little more research won't hurt.
As mentioned in a previous post, noise really won't be an issue (if I change it out with PVC) since the area where the pipe is is becoming my new workshop area.
Have to agreed on the noise issue, if you are living in the space stick with CI, there is nothing quite like sitting watching TV or reading and hearing the flush clatter down the PVC pipe right next to your head. If it is not leaking or cracked yet, I think your support/shim idea is good, and add you might not have to even jack it back up as much as you think
You need to decide if it is wise to try and save the old pipe.
What I suggest is to have a video camera run down the pipe to see what its condition is, then decide.
In SE michigan, "Michigan Power Rodding" specializes in that, and is reasonably priced. I had them do my whole, 80yr old system after moving in to the house and was pleased to find that it was all very sound.
That's good peace of mind, and knowing it will make it more worth your while to try and save the existing stuff.
If you find that its all crudded up and corroded you'll know WHY you are spending the big bucks to get it replaced.
hope this helps,
Norm
Actually, the pipe was just rodded and other than the low spots, apparently wasn't that bad. That's why I started to consider the repair job as a first attempt at fixing this problem.
How much pipe are we talking here?
It couldn't hurt to try to prop it up. Probably easier to do than you expect.
The downside is that the section that has clogged in the past is probably still coated with significant gunk buildup, and may continue to be prone to clogging in the future.
If it doesn't work, you can always rip it out then.
We're talking about 30 to 35 feet of pipe. Most of the clog occurred right at the 90 coming from the vertical section of pipe to where it transitions to horizontal. There's a pretty big dip right there. If I can get thatt fixed I'm guessing my problems will mostly clear up. It might be worth a re-rodding after I repair the pipes too.
"We're talking about 30 to 35 feet of pipe. Most of the clog occurred right at the 90 coming from the vertical section of pipe to where it transitions to horizontal. There's a pretty big dip right there. If I can get thatt fixed I'm guessing my problems will mostly clear up. It might be worth a re-rodding after I repair the pipes too."
Replace the 90 with a wye. Put a cleanout on the other end of the wye. That way you can easily unclog as needed, and it becomes no big deal.
Replacing an ell with a wye at vertical transition is not adviseable, but your suggestion for a clean out is good.
A wye or ell with a cleanout at the top of a horizontal to vertical is ok, but not at the bottom of a vertical to horizontal. In the latter the waste will back flow into the inactive side of the fitting and become the beginning of a clog. May take a few months, but it will happen. I have run into this a lot in both commercial and residential.
He may need to replace the ell because he has a small leak there already. The best place to then place a non directional cleanout is a few feet down stream and then the cleanout plug should be at the top of the pipe, or slightly rolled to one side, so a snake entry can be made a little easier. The roll should be less than 45 degress form top center of the pipe. Anymore and you run the risk of starting the clog at the dead flow area in the cleanout. I use non directional cleanout tees so that I can go either upstream or downstream to find any future clogs.
Some one suggested a replacing the old CI with new, and renting a CI snap cutter. My vote would be in favor of that to retain the low noise property of CI. Only thing I would add is to have all the hangers in place and roughly at the correct height before lifting the new CI. A couple of pipe jacks would be very helpfull and make the job a lot safer.
If the whole 30-35 feet of pipe is accessable, the job would take less than 3 hours to return to service, and bill out at 8 to 12 hours for the total.
Dave
Actually, there already is a cleanout on the opposite end of the wye. I failed to mention that. That's the cleanout we've used to route out this pipe.
John: Coupla random thoughts from a guy that will try anything once. The low spots in the ci will in all likelyhood have a layer of shirt (Can't spell at all) in it that will lead to further clogs & constricted flow. The layer will be at least as thick as the distance between the low spot & the lowest of the closest two high spots. That's why God invented the Roto Rooter! Second; the lead/oakum packing in the bells of the CI are not elastic. They have taken on a permanent new position & size, based on their deformation. Jack it all back into place & you have a high potential for leaks after you are done, even though you don't now. Has the vertical stack settled because of lack of support from the unstrapped horizontal run? That will be fun to try to repair.
All that being said - exactly what have you got to lose by trying to jack it up? It starts leaking, etc, quit, put a bucket under it, a clothespin on your nose & get a plumber! Maybe, just maybe, you can save $5300! Occam's Razor - try the simplest solution first! If all the potential joints for leaks are visible & convenient to get to - no sweat!
Don Reinhard
Don - I agree with you 100%. Try the easy solution first. I know that if I really crank on this pipe I'll develop leaks, cracks, whatever. But if I take it nice and slow and, perhaps, even try to repack the joints a bit as I raise it, it might be okay.
I don't believe the vertical section has sunk any - it still seems to be supported properly.
And yeah - if worst comes to worst and the repair doesn't work, we'll have to replace it anyway. It's worth a shot though and the price is right! :-)
I'm no plumber, but here are a few thoughts and questions:
How much pipe are you talking about? Is it one straight run? Is the vertical stack well supported and at the proper level?
Perhaps you could simply run a tight string from the high point to the low point to see how much jacking may be required. The proper pitch is 1/4" per foot.
My cast iron started leaking after about 70 years, so yours may have plenty of life left. As I understand it, the lead only holds the oakum in place. I imagine that whole sealing system is somewhat flexible. After you slowly coax the pipe back into position, you could pack the lead back in to tighten things up.
If that fails, a PVC repair is not that difficult. Use no-hub (rubber and stainless steel) connectors. I like the abrasive carbide grit sawzall blades to cut the iron. Make sure everything is well supported on both sides before you cut. You don't want to crack the parts you're keeping (Or have anything fall on you.)
Al Mollitor, Sharon MA
Al,
As best I can tell the vertical stack is properly supported. It does not appear to have dropped. The section in question is purely horizontal. A guide string would work perfectly for trying to re-level this beast.
Thanks for your input. Everyone here is great with all of these suggestions and answers!
I gotta think if you're on this forum then you're a DIY type. If you only need to replace a short section, it's really not that hard to do. You could do it in CI or in plastic (it would be ABS here). If CI, go rent a cast iron snap cutter. You will see that the pipe snaps neatly into pieces of the size you want if you have a good cutter. Go to a plumbing supply to buy the pipe and the 'no-hub' fittings you're going to need. Snap the pipe at the beginning and end of the problem area and piece back new stuff.
If plastic, even easier. You will need two no-hub bands that connect plastic to CI where the two transitions occur. The plastic pipe glues together easily, just use plenty of glue.
Either way, just replace it exactly as it is--don't do any designing. The only downside is that it's probably your only drain, so no running water while the project is in the works.
Go ahead and do exactly what you posted. I don't think you will have to take a month though, a week maybe. Get roto rooter to clean the pipe after it is supported.
mike
I don't see why a nice threaded hanger won't do what you need to do. Then lightly repack the joints, don't over do it just very gently with a joint packing iron. The idea is to reset the lead to fill the minor void that will be created.
The service life of cast Iron is 100 years.
http://www.b-line.com/pdf/catalogs/productinformation/PH03%20pdf-webpi/PH-StandardClevisHanger.pdf
> The service life of cast Iron is 100 years.
In this case, with crud sitting in the bottom, it's service life may be seriously compromised. If the pipe is over 50 years old (which sounds likely) then it may have developed some soft spots on the bottom.
But still, it's worth giving it a go at straightening it. It's not likely to fail catastrophically.
> The service life of cast Iron is 100 years.
I've seen it rusted thru and leaking at 70 years.
-- J.S.
wow..how old are you?
Spheramid Enterprises Architectural Woodworks
Repairs, Remodeling, Restorations.
Yea but did you check out the draino receipts
"The service life of cast Iron is 100 years."
As with most products today and a 100 years ago there are different quality of cast iron pipe. I have taken it out at less than 50 years of age where it has rotted out and have been in houses that are 120 years old with cast iron pipe that looked almost new.
It also depends on the type of treatment it has had. If it has been allowed to sit usupported for years it tends to develop small hairline cracks that don't show until moved around a bit. Pouring a lead joint isn't tricky until it is in a horizontal pipe. Most guys could pour a verticle pipe lead joint.
You can go to your plumbing supply house and buy plastic lead. Pack it with Okra and plastic lead it. It works. Or you could call another plumber and ask for PVC. Or you could try and move it around. I wouldn't as I have had little success moving old cast iron pipe through the years but hey, give it a try if you like. Its only sewage. It washes out with water. DanT
I was following you until you said to pack the joints with okra. Won't that just make a gumbo of things?
Ooops! Okum. Treated rope. Not the vegtable. Should post only in the morning when I am thinking clearly. Sorry. DanT
It is morning...
Life is not a journey to the grave with the intention of arriving safely in a pretty and well preserved body, but rather to skid in broadside, thoroughly used up, totally worn out, and loudly proclaiming.... WOW!!! What a Ride!
Well now we Know what that bad smell is coming out of the pipe, it's rotten okra