Hi Folks, I’am a new member,so please bear with me. I’ve been talking to a few roofers about having a new roof installed and I’am getting mixed signals about the type and size of sheathing to install. Hopefully some of you can offer clarity to the situation. The house is 100 YO and has 3 layers of roofing ( 2 layers of asphalt roofing over the orginal wood shingle roof ) The slats under the wood shingles are approx. 6″wide with approx 2″ spacing between slats(they are secure and in good shape). Obviously the roof needs to be stripped but the problem seems to be removing the slats and installing new sheathing to the rafters VS placing the new sheathing directly over the existing slats. There is also different ideas regarding the new sheathing…..some say 11/32 others say 5/8 or 3/4, inaddition to the different thickness I’ve also gotten recommendations for CDX and OSB material. I’am not a roofer so naturally I’am concerned about which way to go. Has anyone out there had a similar problem? Thanks in advance for any help thats available.
Replies
Personally, I'd leave the slats in place and put down 7/16 OSB. It goes down quick when you don't have to worry about the OSB splicing right on a rafter. (They probably aren't straight on a house that old)
What the different guys are telling you probably isn't wrong, it just shows that there are more than one right way of doing things
While you have that much of your house torn up, might as well look at solving problems with insulation in the atic - Especially if it's a 1.5 story with inacessable attic spaces.
I'm with BossHog, leave the slats there (AKA skip sheathing.) It isn't going to hurt anything, and will add rigidiity to the roof and make the job less expensve and easier to do. Other than those reasons, ....
Use of OSB is widespread, opinions on OSB are also widespread.
on an old roof like that we'll tarp the attic, strip the roof, renail any loose skip sheathing & overlay with either 3/8 or 1/2 cdx....usually 3/8...
get too thick and your drip edge starts to not cover.. so you have to change to a different profile..
you don't need the strength.. the skip sheathing gives you that.. so the 3/8 is just to give a nail base over the 2" gaps
also.. we don't staple roofs.. here in coastal RI we hurricane nail with 6 nails instead of 4..
staples disappeared when coil roofing guns became available...
Mike Smith
Rhode Island : Design / Build / Repair / Restore
Edited 4/3/2002 3:49:16 PM ET by Mike Smith
Mike, thanks for your advice.....I hadn't thought about the sheathing thickness and its relationship to the drip edge. I also appreciate your comment about "tarping" the attic, I'll bet that area will get a pile of loose wood,shingle mat./dirt & grim. Sounds like roofing guns can accept staples or nails(maybe they are seperate guns),either way I'am old fashion and would rather have the shingles nailed. Is there any particular reason you recommend cdx( vs osb)?
I hope this reply gets to BossHog as well as Bob Walker. Thanks guys, at last I've got a consistant recommendation. The attic insulation definately is on the list of work to be done. It sounds like there is no siginificant advantage between OSB and CDX. What's your feeling regarding "stapling" VS "nailing".it seems that both methods are exceptable with maybe a slight speed advantage in stapling the shingles. Again, thanks for your advice.
Seems like there was a big debate about stapling vs. nailing shingles a while back. Haven't tried the search engine yet, but you might find some info if you can find that thread....
I'd like to third Boss's comment about the insulation. Much of that old insulation is also covered with mildew. Remove it while you have the chance. And then get the shop vac up in those crawl spaces and clean out the old bugs, dirt, and other things that cause smells long after the job is done.
Also inspect your overall roof for penetrations. Plumbing stacks, vents, etc. Do what you can to reduce the number of them - all within acceptable building practices, of course. Beside reducing roof pollution, you'll reduce the number of potential leak spots.
Old insulation covered in mildew? Remove it with a shop vac? Remove stacks and vents?
Stonefever, stay close to the ground, OK? Roofs everywhere tremble at the mention of your name.
Jack,
The various bits of advice regarding the thickness of the sheathing could have an effect on how straight your roof looks when the job is done. On a house as old as yours, the roof planes are not likely to be very flat--and every house has different degrees of how much of this can be observed from ground level or through windows, so you may care or not, but the thinner the sheathing, the more it will telegraph waviness through to the finished product. That's one reason why some roofers want to use say 3/4" CDX vs. 3/8".
I usually recommend using the thinnest sheathing available and living with the waves, the new roof is still bound to look better than the old one, and you don't need extra support because of the skip sheathing. As George said, get up there if possible and I'd say check out the skip sheathing in all the valleys first to see if it's rotted. Any rot you find will advise you to look above the rot as well as below it to see if the water was travelling. You may want to inspect joists vertically underneath the rot to see if they are bad too.
Take a can of bee killer with you if it's warm out.
Good luck,Mad Dog
Thanks Mad Dog, I've got a fairly big attic and I can see just about everthing from the inside. I havent had any leaks but I also have 3 layers of roofing. I've been going into the attic almost every afternoon with a big flash light, checking every inch of the rafters,skip sheathing, vents , etc. One of the two roofer I spoke to also mentioned the need to ensure a solid deck surface so the new shingles lay flat. Based on the comments I've received,so far, I'am leaning towards either 7/16 or 1/2 CDX for the sheathing over the 1 inch skip sheathing ( that appears to be in great shape).
Splinter,
I believe you've misunderstood my post.
I said get the mildew covered insulation out. The stuff smells. Some people have allergies to it. Replacing it with enclosed material when the roof is open is far easier.
I also said get the shop vac into the crawl spaces, not on the roof. When I redid my roof this year, it gave me the opportunity to remove old raccoon droppings and other dead vermin. Knowing your flavor towards doing things right and clean, I'm sure you agree.
In mentioning roof penetrations, I said to "do what you can to reduce them." Not remove them. If plumbing stacks are somewhat close and IF the pitch of the roof allows, some can be consolidated. I had my plumber do that for me - all within acceptable building codes (as I also said).
Furthermore, in my redo, because my pitch is 12/12 hip, I was able to redirect a gas fireplace type B vent, my Aquastar hot water type B vent, as well as my furnance vent into a new "chimney" that sat on the edge of the top ridgeline. After proper flashing (copper), stuccoing, laying a 6 inch stone cap (in layers of schist), and topping with copper rain caps, it looks like something out of an Irish cottage. And I must emphasize, all was done with permits and inspections along with consulations from the manufacturers of the appliances.
Your suggestion to stay close to the ground has much merit, however, if you could see the results, I don't believe you would quibble.
Although this does not show the chimney, perhaps you can get an idea of the project from this:
http://media.homestore.com/h68twhph.htm
The stonework on the fireplace is mine. The chimney caps I mentioned match.
Nice Digs!
On the issue of keeping or removing the skip sheathing, check with your building inspector. Here in Los Angeles, they'd make you tear it off.
-- J.S.
Why?
They want anything that was planked replaced with sheet materials like plywood or OSB. They don't say why, they don't have to. They're the government.
My guess is there might be some earthquake rationale for wanting sheet materials, and there might be some weight rationale for pulling rather than covering the existing deck.
-- J.S.
Stonefever, you did a beautiful job of explaining your post, except for why you have mildewed insulation in the first place, and why replacement insulation should fare any better. BTW, what is "enclosed material"?
I've been clicking and crashing trying to tour of your house, but i'll take sammi's word for it that it's great.
Since this was a roofing thread, i made the assumption you meant the attic as a "crawl" space, since i couldn't see where ground-level work fit into the thread. I'm still not sure i know where your droppings and dead animals reside, but if racoons are at liberty to roam your place, you need more terriers.
The idea of even mentioning eliminating roof penetrations without clarification alarmed me! I was envisioning vent stacks and bath fans exhausting into attic space--all too common when the need for venting is not taken seriously. Redirecting all your chimneys to a master chimney is commendable--minimizing roof penetrations is a sacred calling as far as i'm concerned--but aesthetics rank pretty low compared to safety for this job. I've met too many bohunks who wouldn't consult the manufacturers for the pertinent information as you did, e.g. the guy who built the house i bought.
I think we should pat ourselves on the back for giving the poster more stuff to think about fixing! <G>
I guess in my aborted attempts to avoid hijacking this poor man's thread I ended up causing more confusion than intended. Apologies to you and him are in order.
The cause of mildewed insulation is the previous owner(s) and original builder failed to provide adequate attic ventilation. This in itself is a subject we hadn't touched upon for our original poster. I failed to mention that my reroof project included several new large copper vents.
The enclosed material is the fiberglas batts surrounded by plastic on all sides (save for the ends where they get cut to fit). Makes handling the stuff much less scratchy.
The previous owners apparently allowed the side garage door to stay open for their dog to wander in and out as well as failed to maintain the eaves properly. Between the damn coons and roof rats, there was a heck of a mess up there. It was a dirty job, but someone had to do it.
Try that website on another computer, I think you'll appreciate the efforts. The file is quite large. It's one of those "virtual tours" the realtors are now having done. Unfortunately, the wife is being transferred and I gotta say good-by to this child of mine that I created. In all honesty, the thought of it is tearing me up.
Sammi, thanks for the nice words.
Stonefever, don't beat yourself up over the inputs you were sharing. As the person who orginally started this discussion I was hoping to get as many independent ideas/thoughts as people were willing to post........so far its been great hearing from folks who obviously have excellent recommendations and the passion to support them. By the way, I was able to open the file with your house pic.,its beautiful.
Hey Jack,
In Wisconsin there's about a $3-7 cost savings with OSB over CDX per sheet depending on thickness. I've used good quality fir plywood for roofs and THINK it looks better when finished, but probably fooling myself. One thing I've noticed with two different roofing coil nailers is that the plywood has less bounce, so when you nail on shingles between rafters, the nails seem to sink better, and therefore you don't have to hit them with a hammer to keep the shingles laying nice and flat. This is a real small issue, not one I'd base a decision on. And with your skip sheathing, it won't make any difference for this job. If i were you, I'd use the 1/2" nominal thickness OSB, get the cheapest stuff you can find, and forget about it, unless you're concerned about the look from the inside, in which case I'd give the nod to the 7/16 or possibly thinner plywood.
Basically, I have no qualms about using OSB for roof or wall sheathing. I draw the line on floors though.
MD
MD, I've been sending questions to the Tech. Service folks at GAF plus others. I finally got a reply from the GAF guys and they say that (with my particular job) they recommend 3/8" minimum APA labelled exterior grade OSB or PLY. Looks like I can't go wrong either way but I would like to hear back from some of the other manufacturers. I'll let you know how I make out.
Stonefever, i've finally been able to tour your house without a crash (I think it's a Prospero thing--it seems to do it only when i'm here) and it was worth the wait. The pool area and the stained glass bay in the dining area are my faves. I'm sure your next place will benefit even more from this "practice session". <G>
I've had insulation on the brain lately and wonder why you went with FG considering the attendant problems with venting, mildew, etc. Did you consider cellulose or foam in your attic?
Splinter and Jack,
Thanks for the nice words. However its too bad only 5 shots were included. The oak spiral to the 3rd floor loft (with the ocean view), finished garage with corian countertops (and sink), as well as my fish pond were all left out. But one of my favorite things is the concealed storage area for garbage cans etc. It has long (10') suspended rolling doors made out of plastic lumber that looks like a fence. The galvanized steel channel they run in has integrated drains. The same pavers go throughout there also.
As far a type of insulation... Being half way between LA and San Diego, the effectiveness of the better types splinter has mentioned loses its appeal - especially since I have single pane windows. The enclosed batts served the purpose fine. Furthermore, the previously mentioned ventilation issues would preclude either the cellulose or foam applications.
The next place - around Denver - the insulation issues become paramount. Lots of consideration will be paid then.
Uh, Stonefever? Did you know that somebody put a For Sale sign in your front yard?
Looks like Splints is trying to imitate the Troll!
Tom Carter
You're kidding!?!!
I thought that was one of those "California" Palms.
As far as Splinter - we all have our sensitive spots. Insulation appears to be hers. I've got mine too, so I don't pick on others about theirs. At least she sticks to the subject instead of getting all testosteronie like some of the other boys that "just have to be right."
Jack,
having done several of these, the problem's going to be the care in
removing the old roofing, and preparing the deck for new roofing.
1) Be there. Look for broken, cracked skip sheathing, and have any bad boards replaced. Renail all skip sheathing, after all, this is what the plywood or OSB will affix to.
2) Do check the insulation... add more now. You may need a separate contractor for this.
3) Insist on new flashing. Drip edge, rake, valley, chimney.
Heavy gauge Galvanized drip and rake. Copper valley, lead chimney.
Copper nails in copper flashing.
4) Select a quality shingle, look at the manufacturer's specifications.
NAIL not staple. Use the appropriate grade roofing felt as specified.
Use Bituthane (Ice and Water Shield) if you're in an area where ice and snow are prevalent.
-gwc
George, thanks for the advice. Your comments about "flashing" caused me to think about something I had ignored.....the chimney. I'am sure its the orginal one and probably hasn't been touched in years. I had a new direct vent heating system installed last fall, the chimney is only venting a gas hot water tank. I suspect I should get a mason to (inspect) rebuild the chimney before reroofing. I don't look forward to what this project will finally cost but it will be worth it.
Here's a discussion on staples v. nails. Nails seem to win as far as the warranty is concerned, while staplers win as far as speed. More important than method, however, was proper placement of the nail or staple just below the tar strip. There is concern about some of the laminated shingles not giving as much of a nail target area, so high-nailing is something to be on the lookout for.
All good advice here so far. The only thing I wpold make sure of is "I use 10 penny framing nails through 1/2 " cdx , through slats and into rafters breaking all sheets over rafters. You could use ring shank 6 penny into slats but when I do this I work the gun angle left and right to stagger the nail angel from slat to slat to make sure the sheet will not work free from the slats over the years. The only time I do that is when the roof is so out of square that it would promote to much wasted plywood. As for OSB thats another argument. I like ply , others like osb, so be it. You can custom make your roof edge any size you want or just buy the larger size. If the masonary of the chimney is bad , now is the time. If not just have him cut in new flashings. Though copper is best ,aluminium is fine if a 25 yr roof is all your installing. If 30 yr. or better go with copper or lead coated copper. It is messy , close all windows, tarp attic remove important items and hide your children.
Hi Splintergroupie, I logged into the "nail" VS "staple discussion ....man I had no idea how much detail/thought goes into one aspect of installing a roof. I'am glad I checked it out because I had not thought to consider that each manufacturer may require a specific method or allow either. Based on the discussion and some of the other comments I'am leaning towards "nails" unless the type of shingle I select requires "staples. Regardless which method is used, it appears from the discussion that "application workmanship" is the key to a good/secure roof. Unfortunately that's one of the elements that I have almost no control over. I just had a Brick Mason check out my chimney and he quoted me $1375 to strip the old chimney to the deck, rebuild(approx 120 bricks) install new lead flashing and install a chimney cap. He also said that he would cut off the old lead flashing slightly above the shingles. The new lead flashing would be brought down onto the old roof with enough allowance so that the roofer (once the roof is stripped) can bring the new flashing down onto the clean deck prior to installing the new roof around the chimney. One more comment...the few roofer I've spoken to seem to prefer GAF shingles. I checked out their web site and the product seems OK. Any thoughts on GAF. I live in the New England area but not close to the Ocean where strong wind/rain may be a consideration.
Jack, i'm glad the nail/staple discussion was useful to you. It is my understanding that all manufacturers accept nailing, butnot all accept stapling, though at least one allows it. Might as well go with nails, just to keep it simple. Also, in another thread, there was a discussion that six nails was best for the heavier laminated shingles on a steep pitch, or the shingles would tear apart under their own weight.
GAF was the defendant in an class action lawsuit that went against them a couple years back, but they seem to have been pretty stand-up about how they handled the warranty work. They have a transferable warranty, which you probably know. Certainteed gets a lot of nods, too, from your area. Hopefully, someone from NE can advise you better than i, as our climates (i'm in a northern desert) are so different.
Jack, what style you looking for?
3 Tab,
No Tab, or
Architectural?
3 Tab is common, with Architectural (profiled) shingles going onto newer places. The Iko "New Englander" is a non-tabbed solid/flat shingle... and seems to have been popular at one time.
My choice is Elk, 30 Year Prestique architecturals. Good cool weather sealing, good fabrication, reasonable pricing.
-gwc
George, currently the only shingle I have some knowledge of is the GAF product although I'll look up the other two your referenced. I've been leaning towards a standard 3 tab shingle, nothing fancy. My wife likes the designer type. I'll have to say that I've learned more about roofing then I ever expected, it certainly makes me more confident in the final decision we make. I'am also impressed with the insightful,professional opinions that have been shared in this "chat" discussion.
Thanks again, I'll be checking out the other shingle MFG. later.
Just my opinion once again. I would have the roofer install the chimney flashings for two reasons. One and the most important. Having the roofer install the flashing makes your warranty for the roof not leaking a clear cut scenario. If the flashing around chimney leaks its his fault. If mason installs, Mason could claim roofer compromised his flashing in some way..................yada yada........ you get the picture. Just makes everything easier regarding liability and any good roofer knows how to do the job well. If they like what I do is meet the mason and go over what joints to scrape out to receive flashing or as I usually do just cut them in. The second reason is with all those layers coming off and sheathing/shingles going on, the height for counter flashing can be established after new true height of roof line is completed.
Hi All trade, are you suggesting that I should have the Mason leave certain brick joints open so that the roofers can anker the flashing between the joints when they install the new roof?? Your warning about liability and finger pointing is a real concern.
Yes Jack , I am sure the mason has done this in the past. Its not that he leaves the joint empty but he scrapes out a groove in the mortar where he believes flashing will be installed. Roofer then installs his flashings when finished and fills with preferred sealer. While two good contractors on the same page can get the job done the way you mentioned it, is simply better left to the roofer. He can set the step flashings at the right level and coarse position. He can install when needed instead of having the worry of not harming it during demo, he can ice/water shield up the sides , front and back and overlap his first coarse that meets the chimney. All at the right time and locations. With all those little reasons and the most important being the liability of leaks it just makes better sense. Like I said I cut the mortar most of the time , it takes a few minutes but have seen many a mason who was nice enough to scrape out the joints for me. If your smart you will try to work out the cleaning of the attic when roof is in progress. I cant stress the amount of dust , it is out of this world. I have torn off the roof and sent the crew down to clean the ground. Then I put on a mask and use a leaf blower to blow all the dust from attic through the slats. Bring the boys back up and install plywood and finish section. Good Luck with the roof. Ron
Ron, thanks for the clarification, that sounds like the way to go. How much of a slot/groove do you recommend and what material would the roofer most likely use when they finally install the flashing. I'll be talking with the mason towards the end of this week. I've also gotten many of the same comments regarding protecting(tarping) the attic to abate the falling junk.
Hey Jack ,sorry took so long. The best bet is to have roofer cut it in ,if he does not mind. Otherwise scraping out a groove with a ten penny nail does the trick along the top edge of the brick.
Thanks AT, I've already spoken to the Mason and told him I'd like to have the roofer install chimney flashing....it didn't make any difference to him, he will do it either way. Again, thanks.
p.s. I've gotten a few quotes on the re-roofing. Its about 23-24 squares and also requires removing 3 existing layers and installing 7/16 ply. The quotes seem high at $750/$800 per square.
In my neck of the woods (central KY) I'd charge $700+/sq. for the project as described. There are some details I don't know that would drive the price up (valleys, etc.) and from what I understand we're pretty lucky in this area on disposal prices. The prices quoted don't sound to far out of line for a good roofer.
Wow ,good price to get, not so good to pay. Where are you located? I would fly out my crew for that kind of money. What pitch is the roof? My avg. price for that job is about 400.00 per sq. on the steep and cut up jobs. Pay for the flight and the four hundred and we are in buisness. LOL. Ron( ALL TRADE).
23 sq. 4 man crew on 12 pitch is a 6 day job at most thats if I watch and don't swing the hammer. If I swing , 4 day job.
At 6 days figure Labor is about 3000
materails= $3000.00
At 400 per sq. I am left with $3200 without swinging the hammer!
Then add about $1200 for disposal. Then overhead (worker's comp, liability ins., tool and vehicle amoritization, repairing the accidentally broken window, flat tire on the wheelbarrow, etc.) and you actually get left with about 10% without swinging a hammer if you're lucky. For that 10% I would usually be on the job site 3-4 hours a day with several hours spent before the job (bidding, selling, ordering, etc.) and several hours after (checking the installation, clean-up, etc.). Also, every once in a while , something gets missed in the temporary dry-in, so I get to make a trip out at 2am in a thunder storm to fix a leak.
Now, normally, when I do a re-roof it is in an occupied house. If the contents didn't need protection, I would charge less (no daily clean up, no dry-in at night).
I don't think you'll find room to afford those plane tickets.
Hey Grant , sorry if I hit a soar spot with you. Perhaps you should try more bran in your diet.
Shingles 920.00
ply- 1000
paper-70
ice/water-200
nails -100
dump-750
total- 3040
labor-3000
insurance for job- 360.00
gas for trucks- 50
total- 6400.00
Price at 400 per sq.- 9200
profit- 2800 without swinging a hammer
if I swing , more like 4000
If I am unhappy with making 1000 per day swinging a hammer then something is really wrong.
Price for making sure you train your workers well enough to make sure the job is water tight...........................PRICELESS.
The price he got at 700 to 800 per sq. is not a fair price , more like price gauging.
He actually doubled my price and tripled my profit.
If someone has lost the desire to swing the hammer and still wants to make the same money. He must get two or more crews going and get more work done to equal what he was making before. He does not reserve the right to make his clients pay through the nose to pay for his round of golf and fat belly.
He must also compete against men like me who still get there hands dirty and make sure they are there to see the work done properly.
Sounds like you bid the job at 800.00 then give it to someone like me to do for 400.00. Just like half the contractors out there....getting fat off my hard work and the homeowners who are gullable.
" Telling it like it is" ................AMEN
Edited 4/18/2002 6:53:08 PM ET by All Trade
No, you didn't hit a sore spot. If my earlier post came off as hostile, I apologise, but I am pissed now. You're just leaving out some figures in your total and some of your figures are last year's.
1)24 squares of 25 yr dimensional shingles - 24 x $40 = $960
2)5 sq starters and ridge caps @ $30/sq. = $150
3)plywood 75 sheets @ $15.00 (assuming no waste) = $1125
4)12 rolls 30lb felt @ $15/sq = $180
5)I'll agree on the ice and water = $200
6)and the nails = $100
Total materials $2715
Sales tax 6% = $163
tipping fees = $1000
I'll go with your labor costs $3000
My worker's comp is $39/$100 = $39x$30=$1170
We've neglected any flashing or drip edge or valley.
Now, Here's where it get's screwy - The gas for trucks I have no problem with -may be even be high. BUT, where'd you get those trucks? And the hammer you swing, and the ladders, and the compressor, nailers, tarps, tear-off tools, roof jacks, knife, hook blades, snips, tape, tool belt, saw, extension cords, air hoses, brooms, wheelbarrows, etc. Somebody give 'em to ya?
I bought mine and have to maintain them. I have to replace what get's lost, stolen, or eventually worn out.
I'm guessing you're pretty young and indestructable (I may be wrong). I was, too, until I hit the ground going about eighty miles an hour. I've crushed one of my elbows (its got seven pins in it), broken my other elbow, broken a wrist, and I'm facing having a disk in my neck removed. Hopefully you'll never fall, but the point is: all of these hospital visits and surgeries are expensive. Health insurance is expensive. I'm a roofer. I roof every day. I still work a lot of 14 hour days and I often work seven days a week. I'm 46 years old and I hope I can keep going for another 25, but I'm less hopeful than I was about that than I was 5 years ago. Have you made any provision for retirement?
So any way - here's the total so far $8048 / 24 squares = $335/sq.
Now add about 25% to provide and maintain equipment = $84/sq.
Subtotal = $419/sq.
I said I didn't think $700/sq. was out of line. So, $700 - $419 = $281/sq. x 24 sq. = $6744. This price was assuming some flashing as I stated above, so lets call it an even $6000. I get hit for about 33% tax burden ($6000x.33=$1980). That leaves $4020. Deduct 10% for IRA contribution ($402) and we're left with $3618. This is about what you came up with (I didn't charge anything above for me working).
If you can make money at your prices and plan for your retirement and the future welfare of your family, and pay your fair share of taxes, then more power to you.
But, if you're just another outlaw, not paying worker's comp and taxes, buying my stolen tools from crack heads, then I'm having to charge extra to subsidise you.
I also don't believe that you've never had a leak in the dry-in on a re-roof.
And by the way, BOTH my vehicles are '92 models with well over 100,000 miles each. I hope to be able to buy a newer truck in the next five years. I do spend a lot of money on equipment to make the job safer. I own scaffold and set it up for a lot of jobs, and have been renting a boom lift for certain operations. I give Christmas bonuses and provide cell phones/radios for my formen of which I have two.
I don't play golf and my waist size is 36.
Hope you are more successful at your prices than I am with mine.
"Telling It Like It Really Is" Amen.
gl
Telling it like it really is ? Think not.
Where do I start?
1st. plywood here in PA , 1/2 inch cdx is 11.95 per sheet, so that could be a regional thing.
shingles 25 yr. dim. are 34.50
total= $351.00
5 sq. of caps and liners? Maybe its a hip roof , otherwise , you are way off.
That's where the confusion ends and the misleading info starts.
Tipping fee..... $1000.00 .....Oh my God what a joke. Why should someone tip a guy after being hit with a bill like yours. Even if they did, 1000.00 Is hard to swallow.
workman comp 39%? LOL.
Your Truck payments cannot be charged to the customer. Every one needs a vehicle. If you work at Walmart you drive a car ,if your a contractor you drive a truck.
25% to maintain equipment? HOLY @@#$% I can't imagine that figure even being close to accurate. "Out right LIE", in which you loose total credibility.
33% tax burden. You pay on your net, not your gross. Every one knows a contractor does not report every cent , with all the tax write offs the number we pay is small in comparison to the average.
You don't believe I have "never had a dry in roof leak". I stand corrected! Once , when I just started my business at the age of 21. Relied on tarp( brand new) . Never made that mistake again. I finish what I start the same day. Section at a time, ( sleep better) and no midnight trips, Tip 1. - Plan better.
You rent a boom truck??????
Supply yards provide this service for free with notice. Tip 2.- Plan better
Cell phones? I do have one yes but this business has been around as long as man, most of that time without cell phones. Cell phones are a convenience not a must.
I am 36 years old and feel a bit older , not that it should factor into how much I charge my customers.
As for your broken bones . Sorry to here about that. I myself have had one broken elbow due to the mistake of another contractor, otherwise I play it safe. We can't charge someone for our mistakes.
I may have took your 1st post the wrong way and if I pissed you off , I am sorry.
It is rare that I get into this type of posting with another but I think you may be charging a little too much. You may not think so but the people who receive both our estimates will think so.
I won't even dignify the stolen equipment and crack head comments with a response.
As for my situation I have a good business, wife , greatest son in the world, a nice home on an acre and a half. Have about 25,000 so far saved for my sons collage fund . I do play golf and love it. Size 34 pant and a little pig headed sometimes.
It may not be much to some people, but to me its a good simple life , bought by both my wife and I and our hard honest work.
The "tipping fee" he was referring is slang in parts of the country for the dumping fee at the landfill. (ie: "tipping" the truck bed to dump it)
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Lighten up a bit, will you guys ??? You can find more civil words to use when you disagree. You guys sound like my 11 and 12 year olds fighting over stupid things.
Truss Designer Extraordinaire
Boss - He said I gouged - make him quit!
Grant , most if not all of what you say is true regarding the buissiness and I have actually raised my prices over the years . The same job 2 years ago I would have done for $300.00 per sq.. My guys, like you said , are young and indistructable. They make between 10 to 14 per hour, sometime they show up up five days straight. The problem is most men in there thirties don't want to roof . So the cost savings in the hourly rates reflect my labor prices. Boy would I love to have a crew of thirty year old smart hard working men like us. It would cost me more for the crew but the workmenship and my sanity would imrove greatly. I have just begun the change over to the AllTrade thing over the last few years and am looking to upgrade my buisiness. Better men , all types of construntion and higher end jobs. I love to go to work and do something different every day. I guess the prices will go up and so will the workmenship along with more enjoyable rounds of golf I hope. Your right about me , I am that guy who feells that I am doing someone a favor by giving them the job at a good rate. I like that sometimes it comes back around and sometimes it does not. I hope all works out for you. I think what one man charges and the other charges is what this country is all about. Everyone has the right to charge what they feel and the customer has the right to choose. I don't need to save your post as it has hit the spot already. I think what this is is how it is suppossed to go. I started out sloppy and was the lowest bid. Improved my work and raised my prices enough to stop being an "olympic roofer". Learned a few more trades and and branched out.
Now the good prices and hard work is starting to pay off , as I to have noticed I don't really have to bid against others to much anymore. I guess its about paying your dues, learning the ropes and getting somewhere in life before we get to play a round with the "big fella". Good Luck , Ron "
"Hey Boss! My uncle can beat your uncle up you know".
I envy your acre and a half. I can get an acre lot within commuting distance of where I live and work now for about $80,000. Cost of living here is high, but the work never seems to run out. What is the "All Trade" thing you mentioned?
gl
A few years ago all I did was roofing. Name of my business was The Roof Company.
Changed name to All Trade and started doing everything.
My goal is to get into the high end stuff in NJ.
I am giving up the 1.5 acres and heading back to NJ to "go for it" so to speak.
Surround myself with a few good men running crews for a %.
Good luck
All Trade, I took it that you wanted to start a pissing contest with me. I think we are probably more alike than you think. I think you are a probably a good roofer - I've read some of your other posts and a lot of the people that post here are at least a cut above average. The point I intended to try and make and got distracted with the math is: We're in a dangerous and hard profession. Our careers could end suddenly with one slip. We don't like to consider those possibilities, but they're there.
I frame and roof one Habitat for Humanity house a year and also participate in what's called Repair Affair. It's a similar program for homeowners that have fallen on hard times and can't afford to maintain their property. A couple of years ago, I reroofed a house for the widow of a man who was a very respected (and supposedly successful) carpenter/builder. He died of a histoplasmosis related illness (contracted from bat droppings in a cornice he was rebuilding) after a long hospital stay without health insurance at around age 60. The hospital bills devastated his family financially as they used up his life insurance plus.
An employer that I once had often bid too low. He always promised raises if "we have a better year this year." We never had that better year so I left as did a lot of other people he would have liked to stay. He has now started charging more and is having great success.
You started critisizing my prices and I tried to justify them using your formula which is not how I arrived at my pricing to begin with. There are definately regional differences. I don't often bid against anyone, but when I do and its apples to apples, I'm normally low or in the middle. If I'm high, somebody left something out.
I also can't (nor can anybody else, apparently) get good dependable help at reasonable prices in this area. I looked at your labor figure again and I couldn't get the job at hand done for that figure. I have to pay better than you do for less qualified help.
Now, let's get back to the numbers: I stick to my material prices. In fact, I just got a notification from my shingle supplier that shingles were going up 10%. I did assume the worst (hip roof, two story, steep pitch, etc.) since I had little info to go on.
The tipping fee is the dump fee.
Get nailed by OSHA once and besides the fine, that's gonna be the worker's comp rates. By the way, how well would your job site stand up to an OSHA inspection? You know that nearly new ladder you've got with the slightly bent rung? You and I know it's perfectly safe, but OSHA says that will be a $750.00 fine. Most residential roofers will never have to deal with OSHA, but I had the good luck to get a job a couple of blocks from their office a number of years ago. Oh, well. This did make me rethink my safety standards, fines or not.
I don't have any truck payments, but I do have about $100,000.00 of equipment, not counting vehicles. That's replacement cost, which is more than I paid for it, since I bought a lot of it slightly used from people going out of business. To use your analogy about Walmart, if I worked there I would have to provide my own transportation to get there. Once I'm there, though, they give me the blue vest, the back support, the box cutter, the forklift, etc. Walmart provides and maintains this equipment for me and part of what it charges its customers for each item goes to pay for this. It also gives me a paid vacation, health insurance, retirement, and a discount if I need something they sell (which is about everything). All this is also provided by a percentage of the cost of each item sold. This is called OVERHEAD. You and I as contractors have it. Our equipment, shops, offices, cell phones, etc. are indeed paid for by the customer. It's part of the price of doing business. If I worked at Walmart I wouldn't need a cell phone. I hate the damn things. I can't take a crap without being interupted.
Now, the boom lift is a personel lift, not a material handling device. I need equipment like this since I work on church steeples and similar structures. Our businesses differ quite a bit (I don't even do jobs like the one we're arguing about anymore, but I still stand by my estimate and I did qualify it orginally by saying that's what the going rate is in my region). We probably live about the same lifestyle. I just have to charge more to maintain it. As of the first of this year, I got rid of all but two men. My son will help us in the summer. My books say this is working better than having about 12 working for me. As I said before, I don't often bid against anyone. I get to pick my jobs. I have worked long and hard for this right. My dues are paid. I deserve it. I don't gouge, but I do charge a fair price for my experience and knowledge as would anyone else in any profession. If I need a plumber, I hire a good one, pay his fee and expect the job to be done well. Same goes for mechanics, lawyers, acountants, table dancers - oops.
A lot of contractors seem to have the attitude that they're doing a complete stranger a favor by making less than what they need to on a particular job. Is that customer going to kick in to support your family if you fall and break your back ten years from now? I doubt it.
I may be completely off base here, but my attitudes were similar to yours ten years ago. I now see the end of my career coming. It's still a long way off I hope, but its closer than it was 10 years ago. As I've said before, I've worked very hard to get where I am, but I want to be able to enjoy my retirement if I choose to retire. If I end up not being around, I want my family to be provided for. Ten years ago, I said I would never retire. I'm starting to rethink that.
Do me a favor. Print this thread out and put it someplace where you'll find it in ten years. Reread it then and see if you agree with me somewhat. If not, wipe your butt with it and throw it away. I just hope you're not selling yourself short.
I apologize for the stolen tool remark, which wasn't really directed at you anyway. We had some tools stolen off a job site by another contractor recently. I also know some roofers (as well as other trades) who have to sell a little herb or oxycontin on the side to maintain, since they don't charge enough.
I also don't like to get into a shouting match in these forums, but its sometimes hard not to. I do feel better after I blew some steam off here. Hope you do,too, but you still couln't afford the plane ticket. HA!
Anyway, I hope you get in a good round of golf tomorrow.
gl
Jack,
" I had a new direct vent heating system installed last fall, the chimney is only venting the gas hot water heater" ..... " I suspect I should get a mason to (inspect) rebuild chimney"....
Well, thats certainly an option...but here's another one to chew on....
Instead of rebuilding chimney, change your hot water tank over to a power assisted direct vent and vent it out the side wall like you did for your heating unit. It's a gas hot water tank, not electric, that has a fan motor in the duct line (I believe) that pulls the CO2 outside. Should the fan motor fail, it sends a relay signal to the gas thermocouple, which shuts down the hot water tank. I personally have never installed one of these, so I don't know all the "ins & outs" about them.
My one contractor buddy did install one in his home, but later removed it. I think he said the reasons were because winds were able to backdraft thru the pvc vent line into the heater and would blow out the pilot light. If I remember correctly, he also indicated that in his area, power outages were fairly common, and this would shut down the fan motor, which in turn shut off his pilot light...hence cold water when he got home.
I'm not a plumber...perhaps some plumbers here can give better insight about these type of water heaters.
You also could possibly opt to go with an electric water heater, or even tankless...depends on your situation.
Anyway, if you chose to go with any one of the above mentioned options, you could simply cap off your chimney, or better yet, have it removed down to the roof line and roof over it; no longer needing to worry about flashing it.
This may be a cheaper alternative to a rebuild, or maybe not. If you decide to keep chimney and current water heater, ask your mason if your chimney opening should be cut down in size so your water heater will vent better. A lot of old chimneys have very large openings for multiple ventings (fireplaces & such). Too large an opening can cause the CO2 gases to cool down too quickly before reaching top of chimney, causing some CO2 to backdraft back down. One fix to this is to have a smaller diameter chimney liner installed. It can be a metal liner approved for this purpose.
Just thinking ou loud Jack; hope you don't mind.
LOL on your roofing project.
Davo
My sentiments exactly.
Ive done a number of these tearoffs lately, one of them being my 100 year old place. Since I had already put in a direct vent furnace, the first thing I did was replace my water heater with a power vent. I was able to tear off the chimney, and remove it from a small bedroom on the second floor also.
So unless you have a sentimental or aesthetic attachment to a chimney, thats the best way to solve your flashing concerns for a good long while...
personally i wouldnt use old #### board [osb] on anything.
Thanks Sawman, it seems to be a personal choice but most of the comments ,so far, favor CDX over OSB (not sure way). I've checked some prices and there does not seem to be a major difference for the same size 4X8 sheets. Unless I get some other compelling info, I plan on specking my project using CDX.
Hi Jack,
When I built my house 5 years ago, my framer used 7/16" OSB. The stuff is indestructable. I dug up a sheet of it in my back yard about a year after the house was built and it was still intact, only it had swollen to almost 3/4" of an inch. The best thing I think you would want to use is 1x6 tongue an groove pine. But it is way too expensive. If I had to build my house over, I would use 5/8" CDX plywood with plywood clips, and make sure all the corners and interior of the sheet are properly nailed down with ring shank nails. The problem with the OSB on my house is that when the morning sun hits it in a certain angle, I can see the sheets of OSB telegraph through the shingles. I think with 5/8" CDX and one layer of No. 30 Felt or 2 layers of No. 15 felt, you will have an good foundation for the roof. About the existing strip nailers, I could'nt tell you if you should take them off or leave them on. And don't forget the ice and water shield if you are in the northern climates. Also a tid-bit about flashing roof vents. My roofer (who was pretty good) used the metal type witches hat with the black E.P.D.M rubber seal to go around the vent pipes. One of these seals split last month and I developed a leak in my room at the vent. I would recommend using the lead type vent flashing what goes up the vent pipe and folds down in to the pipe it self. Good Luck. Eric
Jack
About 10 years ago I went through what you are now going through. I wound up stripping to the 1X6's on a 10 pitch and resheathing with 1/2" CDX. The points raised above are complete, although I'd add a couple of others:
If the chimney penetrates the roof, consider installing a cricket between the roof and the chimney. I'm very glad I did.
When the roof is removed, see if you can see down in the stud wall cavity. Mine was balloon framed, meaning I could see over 20' down (no fireblocking). This is a great time to do wall insulating with some kind of pour-in insulation (I used vermiculite).
Best of luck
BruceM