Howdy,
Got a question regarding a kitchen remodel the DW and I are kicking about. Our house is a 1960’s side by side split, and the kitchen is located on the mid-level backyard corner of the house.
One of the primary problems with the kitchen (besides a lack of usable cabinetry….) is a lack of space for dining in the kitchen. Yes, yes, I know that’s why there is a separate dining room off of the kitchen towards the front of the house. Getting people to congregate there while she or I are cooking dinner is a completely different story.
The easy answer is to knock out the wall between kitchen & dining and expand the space(s) appropriately. Of course, the wall between the two rooms is load-bearing. Which makes the easy answer not so easy.
So I’m trying to figure out some ways to rework things and not go broke or insane at the same time.
First idea is to replace the existing beam with a smaller, glu-lam or steel type thing, but I think we’ll ended up with an obvious bar going between kitchen & dining areas that will just scream “remodel”.
The second idea, which I don’t know if it is possible, is to cut the ceiling joists back a smidge and tie them into a glu-lam beam using joist hangers. Of course, I’d use Piffen (SR) screws to tie the joists into the hangers, but that’s only one of the great words of wisdom that I’ve picked up from the forum.
My thinking with the second idea is that the replacement beam would be concealed by the ceiling after the drywall was put back in place. Is it possible to do that? Is it *affordable* to do that?
Room dimensions (if they matter) — kitchen is probably 12′ by 20′ and the dining is about 12′ by 15′. The 20′ + 15′ dims make up the ‘depth’ of the house from front to back, so a total span of 35′.
Can anybody weigh in with some thoughts? Has anyone done either method of beam replacement?
many thanks,
Glen
Replies
When my former wife decided to open up the wall between her kitchen and the dining room, she discovered that the prior owner (who is an idiot) had already done so and then closed it in later.
However, the moron just whacked off the studs about two feet below the drop ceiling and slapped a piece of sheetrock across the ends.
We spanned about a ten foot run with two 2x8s screwed together supported by a 2x4 on each end that was screwed into the existing full-length studs.
So far it's working, my daughter's bed hasn't fallen into the kitchen/dr area.
We won't discuss what the moron did to the electrics. That's slowly being corrected.
Hey Leon,Thanks for the input. I'm hoping to avoid being that "moron" for the next set of owners. :-)Unfortunately, I can't do a dropped ceiling in this case as I'm already at 8' on the ceiling height. Going lower would make me positively claustrophobic. :-)Glen
Sorry, Az, bad info.The house is a 1940s farmhouse, has nine foot ceilings, she ripped out the dropped piece of cr*p the idiot installed.Her current plan is to put pressed tin in the kitchen, the dining room is lath and plaster.The attached photo shows the outside wall end of the repair, don't have one of the entire span I can find.Leon
Looks like your former wife did a pretty good job of putting things back to where they should have been or just simply doing the remodel 'right' the second time around.Interesting that you mentioned the pressed tin ceiling. DW and I have been thinking about doing that one as well. Friends of ours used it on their house in Tucson and we really liked how it looked. Thanks for the help so far!
Glen
AzDisc,
Questions.
2nd. Floor above the rooms involved?
If so what depth and spacing are the ceiling/floor joists ?
If not is it a truss roof and which way do they run?
Does the existing wall carry any roof load at all if it is a stick built roof?
Some solid answers to these questions will generate more responses as people get a feel for the project.
Yes it is possible to bury a beam in the ceiling under the right circumstances.
It is even possible to place the beam above the ceiling/joists and hanger them to it .
Load carried, depth available to place the beam are the two big ones.
Good questions dovetail, I can't believe I forgot to add those details...Area above kitchen + dining room is 'attic' space. Currently, there isn't anything above the area so I have very good access. It really feels like a lot of wasted space up in the attic -- so much so that DW and I have talked about expanding the 4th bedroom on that floor of the house.Ceiling joists are 16" OC and are 2x10, I believe. Positive on the spacing, not absolutely positive on 2x10. I don't believe it's a trussed roof as I can easily stand up and walk around in the attic. Which is no mean feat as I'm 6'3". And did so actually to put more FG insulation bats in place. My old place was a trussed roof and getting around up in the attic was simply miserable. This is a walk in the park in comparison. Okay, a park where the pavers are spaced every 16".... :-)Ceiling joists + roof joists run front to back of the house, spanning the 35' distance I mentioned. So they are parallel to the lengths of both rooms. The 12' widths of the rooms are perpendicular to the joists.RE: load carried, depth available -- plenty, plenty of depth as you might imagine from the above description. Load carried is probably minimal and is lateral force if anything, ie. keeping the edges of the roof in place.Additional info on the house -- the framing on the house has been rock solid. Even after 40+ years, the window frames are still perfectly square and the only problems I had with doors were due to the doors themselves warping -- not the frames. The framers that put this house up did a d*mn fine job.Glen
Glen- correct me if I'm wrong on my reading here-
The wall that you'd like to remove, between kitchen and dining room, is 12' long? And of course it's perpendicular to the joists.
That shouldn't be a big problem to span, and it could probably be done in the depth of the 2x10s- that would leave the attic open for living space, if that was a possibility.
You'll also need good bearing at the two beam ends, to pick up the load that was dispersed along the wall.
Dovetail may be asking about the stick framed or truss roof because ceiling joists often act as tension members, holding the walls in against the force of the roof.
I'm not sure about the style of your house, but it's often nice to have some sort of visual break between rooms- it doesn't necessarily scream "remodel".zak
"When we build, let us think that we build forever. Let it not be for present delight nor for present use alone." --John Ruskin
"so it goes"
Nope, you're not wrong at all. And the likely span is probably going to be shorter than 12'. Probably only 6' to 8', which will leave plenty of space for supporting columns.In our case, we can't / don't want to have a visual break as we need to extend the kitchen into the dining area by a few feet. If we *had* to, we could possibly conceal that with some cabinetry, but I was having a hard time seeing how that might work. There just isn't the ceiling height to make it happen.The follow-up question to all of this will of course be "just how hard is this going to be?" :-)Glenafter-thought: No, I normally don't hang out on BT this late but I got paged and had to dial into work. So I figured I might as well take advantage of the situation... ;-)
AzDisc, OK, more questions . (great job of answering BTW)
It sounds as if it will be fairly easy to hide a beam of the size you are going to need. ""And the likely span is probably going to be shorter than 12'. Probably only 6' to 8', which will leave plenty of space for supporting columns."" Centering the opening in the 12'wall? One end meeting a perpendicular wall and opening at one end of the wall? Will one (or both ) end of the header have more than just a post for support?
(Can it run long and have it's support spread over several feet in stead of a single post ) Any idea what is under the floor for support of the existing bearing wall? Continuous footing or piers? Beam ?"Poor is not the person who has too little, but the person who craves more."...Seneca
Hi Dovetail,The opening won't be centered in the 12' span. It will likely be off to the side a little bit. Say a 60 / 40 split or a 70 / 30 split if that makes sense. Deeper cabinetry (perhaps stove) on one side and shallower cabinets on the other. Current doorway between the two is about 2 feet in from the right hand side if you're in the kitchen facing the dining room / front of the house.There is plenty of space on either side of the opening to continue supporting the beam. Obviously, I'd have to tear into more things, but that just makes it fun. How far were you thinking the beam should extend out? Let's assume a 6' opening to make it easy. Is several two or three feet or more?Underneath the load bearing wall is a iron / steel beam running the length of the entire basement. That beam is supported on the ends by the concrete foundation and then two more metal posts more or less evenly spaced in the basement. The steel beam is probably 6" tall (with a 2x6? on top) and the basement joists are 2x12..I haven't precisely measured everything, but I strongly suspect the load bearing wall rides on top of the steel beam in the basement. So there is a single "support plane" going up through the house.I'm liking the "fairly easy to do" nature of your reply!!! :-)Glen
AzDisc, Ok You will have a decision to make before you start the project. To convert your attic space to living space would require that the current ceiling joist assembly be checked for ability to carry the floor/ceiling load.
Further, here at least I would need to add add footing bearing .A single story (1 floor , 1 roof load) requires a 6' x 12" footing here, a 2 story ( 2 floors, one roof ) requires an 8' x 16' footing.
Headers in the bearing walls need to support the new floor load , not just the existing ceiling load. Something for you to think about. Bearing for the new header over the 6' opening needs to be in a continuous vertical path down to the ground. If your steel beam is directly (or damn near) under the wall you cutting into you should be fine.
Personally I would go for no less than 3" of bearing at columns at each end of the new beam, under those new columns you need solid blocking down to you steel beam beneath the floor .
( I probably would actually run my beam from joist face to joist face at the two joists closest to the opening you want cut out as long as it gives 3" minimum bearing.)
If I calced this right a double 2x12 SYP or DF or 1-1 3/4 x 8" LVL will carry your load for the ceiling. (10 lbs. ceiling load) If you go to the converted attic idea it would take something bigger. DISCLAIMER: I am not an ENGINEER. Method 1) Put up temporary supports (wall) to hold the existing joists up. Since you are cutting the middle joists close to the center of the room I think you need not worry about the building spreading from the rafter load while doing the work so I wouldn't worry about that in this case. Tear out the old wall , remove the debris, cut your ceiling joists back by whatever amount you need to slip the new header into place.
Use joists hangers to hang the joists, straps over the top of the beam to reinforce the tension load from the roof on the hangers.Method 2) Remove drywall from wall, and 1' +/- of ceiling each side of the wall.
Slip the new beam up into the attic and position it atop the joists in line with the wall below. Provide solid blocking between the joists at each end of the beam. ( This might mean the beam has to be a couple of ft. or more longer than your opening is wide)
Use top hung hangers or side hung hangers (or strapping) to secure the joists to the beam. Ensure that the load from the beam to the remaining wall sections is carried directly down vertically to the steel beam below the 1st. floor, solid block as needed to ensure this. Check to make sure the existing joists are fastened together adequately and lap by 24" =/- to allow for the tension loads from the roof.
Remove the wall. Block between the joists if there are no blocks there. Add cripples (posts)at each end of your opening to support the beam load. Call a drywaller and have a beer."Poor is not the person who has too little, but the person who craves more."...Seneca
Edited 6/23/2007 7:49 pm by dovetail97128
Hey dovetail,Thanks for the detailed reply and the estimates on what I would need for a glulam. This project is seeming to become a more reasonable project with each new piece of information. And your disclaimer is understood. I'll have it sized by a local design shop and make sure it's good with the city prior to actually starting the project. Not sure I want to tell the inspector "Oh yeah, some guy I know off the 'net sized it for me so I'm sure it's ok." The inspectors here are pretty friendly and all but I don't quite see that one flying too well.And I'm afraid I have more than one decision to make on this project. :-) Fortunately there are several I can just punt to the DW and let her pick. Ah if only everything were this easy.Running the beam joist to joist makes sense to me too. When the discussion regarding lateral forces keeping the rafter ties in place started that made me start meandering through all of the possible dimensions where I could see movement. Running joist to joist should make it easier to tie the support columns into the existing wall structure as well.Of course, now that I'm becoming "expert" in working on load bearing walls I'm tempted to start messing with a different one in the garage too. :-)I need to win the lottery so I can get all my projects done. :-)Glen
I'm no expert on removing load bearing walls, but there was an article not too long ago in here. Check out the link below and be sure to read the "reader's comments" section at the end; it might save you some grief.
http://www.taunton.com/finehomebuilding/PDF/Protected/021152080.pdf
Another alternative is to build a soffit around the beam. I did this several years ago when remodeling a very small condo kitchen. I then put short (18") cabinets on the kitchen side of the soffit, halogen lights on the bottom of the soffit and underneath and separating the kitchen from the dining room, I installed a 9 foot long cherry breakfast bar (made by my best friend) with stools. My guests sat at the bar, out of my way, but I was still involved in the party. The cabinets I kept short and mounted then so they were just over my head. That way they didn't interfere with the conversations or sightlines and I didn't bump my head on them when the doors were open (I'm 6'-2"). I've attached a couple of pictures to give you an idea. The first picture (Before) shows the wall on the right with a floor to ceiling wall cabinet; the second, (after1) shows the soffit, the lights, the backs of the cabinets and the bar; the third,(after2) is taken from the same place as the before shot and shows the cabinets mounted to the soffit.
With as much space as you have, I think such a set up would work great and might be easier than cutting through rafters to install an in-ceiling beam.
Edited 6/23/2007 3:03 am ET by kjblunck
Edited 6/23/2007 3:06 am ET by kjblunck
Howdy KJ,Thanks for the link to the article. That gives me a good excuse to subscribe for a month and pick up the information.I was about to reply that we couldn't do a soffit around the beam as we want to extend into the dining area. And then I saw a visualization that would make it work. So I guess I *do* have that as an option now... This is one of the advantages of asking questions to the BT forums!!!But now I have another option to design and discuss with the DW. It's almost to where we have too many options to work through, so it's hard to pick the one that will work best for us.However, with that having been said, I can see creating the soffit and a standing bar / serving area for when we have guests over. And I think that may have been what Zak was suggesting in his earlier post.Glen
Probably the easiest way to do this is to hang the beam above the cieling joists in the atic and use strap ties to support those joists from it.
But since you have generous attic space you might want to finish out someday, you hould probably set it as a flush beam or drop in in the top of the wall under the cieling.
Whatever you do, be sure to follow the load path to have it supported all the way dowwn
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Hey Piffin,Thanks for the reply! I had hoped to pique your interest by mentioned piffin screws to tie everything together... :-) I think if I went with strap ties, that's the way I would have to go.Just to make sure I understand what you mean by the load path. Are you referring to keeping the support replacement in the same 'plane' that it's currently in? In other words, don't shift this load bearing point over to a different part of the room, right? If so, then that's what I'm wanting to do. Basically, I just want a portion of the wall to disappear but make sure all the joists are still supported properly.I added more info to my reply to dovetail, so that might help you in making sure I understand the load path.Many thanks again,
Glen
Load path means analysing where loads get transferred to and following that down to foundation to be surte the top is supported so nothing gets displaced.So the current load there is the ceiling and it lands on a wall. Presumably that wall is built on the subfloor which is on the floor joists running the same directon as the cieling joists. Those floor joists probably rest on a beam which is supported by posts on footings.Now you want to interrupt that load patrh and change it by substituting a beam for a portion of the wall. So the load that urrrently lands on several feet of wall and is distributed evenly along that wall will become two point loads at either end of the beam. If not too long of a beam, probably a king stud and a jack studd will handle it, but say if it were twelve feet long and there were a finished room above - or some roof loading, then you might want at least two jack studs under each end of the beam.Those studs land on the bottom plate of the wall, but that position might not be directly over a floor joist and a floor joist might compress under the added loads so it is imperative to add a squash block in the floor framing diretly under the point load to transfer it to the beam below. I have seen a house where this was not done and the ply subfloor was defelcting 3/4" in that 14-1/2" space between joists..Again following the loads down, depending on the capacity of the beam in the craewlspace, it ould be necessary to add a post and footing in line with the jack posts above. If they land midspan on a beam that is designed for evenly spread loading, the poiunt load in the center of a span can stress it more and add deflection.No - I am not running any numbers for you, I am just hitting on the principles so you understand what I mean by load path.Got it?
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Hi Piffin,Thanks for the follow-up and additional info. I didn't realize the supporting columns need to be over the floor joists, but it makes sense now that you've mentioned it. And in my case the load path isn't going to shift away from the current plane that it's on. But I will be shifting the bearing points along the path which will create the increased stress as you pointed out.And thanks for declining to run the numbers for me. :-) I'll run this through a local design firm as well as the city for the permit. I have a rule that any structural or significant system change requires another set of eyes on my ideas. Then I can say "well a bunch of us thought it was going to be okay, but.... "If anything I'll end up overbuilding the remodel. I'm a big fan of the economy of one theory, and I see it working to my advantage in this case as well.Glen
The jacks do not need to be directy over the foor joists, but if they are not, then you need to place support blocks between subfloor and beam down below there
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From what I gather your project isn't going to be that hard, but you need to watch the load path as other have said, and make sure to allow for a method of holding the rafters in.
It sounds as if the ceiling joists are currently serving as rafter ties and keeping the rafters from pushing out the exterior walls. If you put a beam in there must be some allowance for providing an alternative way to serve as rafter ties. This may be as simple as a metal simpson strap going from the ceiling joist to around the beam.
Simply using hangers on the ends of the cut ceiling joists won't be enough since the hangers are not made for loads pulling away from the beam.
I'm not sure where the idea of using sheetrock screws in a hanger came from, but it's simply not correct and our inspectors would have you replace them with the proper hanger nails. A hanger manufacturer has to rate their hangers based partially on the type of fasteners used (smaller fasteners often downrate the hanger) and there isn't a manufacturer anywhere that would rate a hanger with sheetrock screws. Won't happen.
We've put in a number of this type of beam and based on what you've described it takes a good solo carp about 10 hrs. if everything goes smoothly to complete the demo and framing, and another 10 hrs. to patch the sheetrock and retexture.
Best of luck
Beer was created so carpenters wouldn't rule the world.
Hi Don, Thanks for the feedback and chiming in. As I mentioned to Piffin, it's nicer to be able to say, "well, a bunch of guys thought it was going to be alright..." Makes for a better beer story.And no, I WON'T be using SR screws. I had only put that in there in jest. The thought of using SR screws on a structural piece like that is simply ludicrous to me. Piffin is well known for correcting the disciples of the SR screw, and I was hoping by mentioning the SR screws I'd drag him into this thread. I'm not above adding a little fodder to the topic to cause some lively discussion. Regardless, thanks for the warning as there probably ARE disciples of the SR screw who wouldn't think twice about what I thought was a good joke.Double thanks for the estimates on timing as well. That will really help me with planning the piece. Invariably a lot of my projects are done solo. I had planned on pulling in help for this one, but your estimates really let me know that I'll have to bring in help in order to get this done in the timeframe(s) I'll have. One of the joys of working on the house while living in it with a toddler & infant.Glen
The way I took it, he was tongue in ccheek whenn saying he would use piffin screws.I agree with you that hangers are not enough to prevent ties from spreading if he does the flush beam, but just for info, I did have an engineer spec it that way to me one time for a pretty high load. I added cable ties under his OK, but he did not think them necessary
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Now that you mentioned it as tongue in cheek I totally get the joke. Don't know why that didn't register last night.
Strangely enough, just a few months ago we also had an engineer ok a beam with a few kickers to the midspan of the rafters as per original framing, but no plans for rafter ties, even though the ceiling joists were 16" oc and the rafters 24" oc so no real way for most of the rafters to be held in and the wall spread suggests it really did need more support.
Beer was created so carpenters wouldn't rule the world.
I'll hijack my own thread in reply... :-) Which raises an interesting philosophical question on whether or not it really is a hijack then.I had to read what you described two or three times before I finally got it. And even then I was still scratching my head. I think we're all susceptible to the "late at night" mistake and missing things that we wouldn't otherwise.My day job is in software, and I know that we traditionally rely on multiple people eyeballing a design during production stages to make sure that it's right. It's not always perfect, and I worry with the trend towards using outsourced teams that we'll see more or more flaws creep up in our software.The wiser pundit might ask "there can be more bugs?", and unfortunately, yes, yes there can.I also wonder about the construction industry and trends due to our litigation oriented society. I think we're seeing a breakdown in communication between architect / engineer / builder(s) which leads to problems like this. From various conversations I've had, the trend seems to be that the builder won't push back on the engineer when they've obviously come up with a hare-brained plan.I'll stick with piffin screws for my structural supports. :-)Glen
I also wonder about the construction industry and trends due to our litigation oriented society.
Insurance costs are driving residential construction in ways that I hadn't thought about in years past. It used to be if I knew how to do something there wasn't a hesitation to take on the project, but now that I have more at risk personally I'm constantly assessing the client and how likely it is that I'll get sued even if the project is done correctly, or other stakeholders that will or won't contribute to the liability.
From various conversations I've had, the trend seems to be that the builder won't push back on the engineer when they've obviously come up with a hare-brained plan.
There are many ways to build most things and there are often reasons engineers and architects come up with bizar ideas, often it relates back to liability. Every design has risks and the easier it is for a designer to minimize the liability the better off they are if everything else is even.
Some designs are screwy because it's what will fit in the engineers computer model, fits the engineers past experience, or it's easier to draw. It's not based on the best practices, or common construction practices, or any number of other things builders and carpenters rely on daily.
For the most part the builder's (and architects) liability for structural issues is pushed to the engineer and as long as we have the engineer's stamp we've covered the liability issue, which is somewhat separate from the actual construction. As Piffin said, and many of us do, when an engineer misses something we apply common building practices, or even best practices, to feel comfortable that the construction is sound.
It seems to me that's the key issue: an engineer is a stakeholder in the quality of the structural design, but he's not the end all single person that makes it happen.
It reminds me of a professor who made twice his normal salary as a consultant doing autopsies on large complicated crashed programs, or those which are in danger of such. He would diagnose, make suggestions, wish the client luck and cash the check. As you well know, not everything this type of consultant suggests makes sense and if your programing team thinks an important item has been missed you'll apply something to it.
Beer was created so carpenters wouldn't rule the world.