First time on the boards, but I read the printed ones in FH. We are 5 years into a DIY home “we should have torn it down and started new, but we didn’t” remodel. We have a large room that is 2/3 old oak floor (c. 1960s) and we scavenged another 120 s.f. from another house of same red oak, grade, and size, and used it, after a lot of work on the remaining 1/3 of the room (new addition). We’ve done everything on this house ourselves, but we have young kids and I talked my husband into hiring out the sanding/finishing of the old and salvaged floor while we are gone next week. We found a neighbor who used to finish floors for the school system. He recommended Curator and Self-Seal as finishes, but he’s not internet savvy and aware of the latest, so I’m trying to do a little research myself. To my dismay, I really can’t find any recommended products in my Google searches, only a description of the general types of finishes. We have a pretty “green” remodel, so I don’t want high VOC, nor anything really toxic. We do want something that will last so we don’t have to redo this before our kids go off to college. Its a high traffic (but no water) area that has to hold up to kids, dogs, and life in the mountains (i.e. sawdust tracked in with firewood, chicken poop on the bottom of the shoes, rocks stuck in treads, etc.). I figured someone here probably has a bit of experience….Also, we don’t mind spending some money, but probably can’t afford the best.
Thanks.
Replies
Welcome Dayna. Try Traffic or Mega, made by Bona. An excellent water-borne finish. Probably have to get it applied by a flooring contractor though, as far as I know its only sold through wood flooring distributors.
http://www.bonakemi.com/
Mike.
The best floor finish I have ever used is a product called Last & Last. I can't recall the manufactuer though. It is a tung oi based polyurethane so it isn't considered 'green'.
But it has very little smell, dries quickly, and is very durable. I mean very! Your just not going to get anything durable in a water based finish for floors.Which in my opinion smell worse when you apply them than poly."The purpose of life is rapture. Here and now"
Your just not going to get anything durable in a water based finish for floors
The modern waterbase finishes are as durable as, if not more than, oil based, -- they are also non-yellowing, UV resistant, far easier to re-coat and have far less odor.
They also come in a range of sheens, unlike tung oil.
IanDG
I beg to differ. I have never seen a water based floor holdup in high traffic areas like a high quality t/o poly.
I would agree that if the H/O would every year do a simple cleaning and apply another coat of water based in high traffic areas you'd have no problem. But who is going to do that?
Just my experience."The purpose of life is rapture. Here and now"
The only thing I've found harder than waterbase is solvent based, moisture cured and that is now banned because of its toxicity.
I've used waterbase on thousands of square feet of flooring in preference to any other because I know I'll get fewer complaints and call-backs.
Where have you used it?
IanDG
MC hasnt been banned...its been reconfigured....but still a pita to get.
a...The secret of Zen in two words is, "Not always so"!
When we meet, we say, Namaste'..it means..
I honor the place in you where the entire universe resides,
I honor the place in you of love, of light, of truth, of peace.
I honor the place within you where if you are in that place in you
and I am in that place in me, there is only one of us.
http://CLIFFORDRENOVATIONS.COM
I thought the solvent/alcohol-based had been off the market for some time -- I know the oil-based is still available but apart from the toxicity it yellows and isn't as hard as something like Bona Kemi Traffic.
I've been using waterbase finishes for nearly 10 years and a lot of the criticism is based on what they used to be like rather than what they are like now.
As for tung oil varnish -- it's soft, yellows and stinks.
IanDG
Edited 1/31/2005 1:01 pm ET by IanDG
Ian...I agree about the tung shid....I'm not 100% sure about the MC other than what my floor guy told me....and he doesnt even wanna use the new stuff.
a...The secret of Zen in two words is, "Not always so"!
When we meet, we say, Namaste'..it means..
I honor the place in you where the entire universe resides,
I honor the place in you of love, of light, of truth, of peace.
I honor the place within you where if you are in that place in you
and I am in that place in me, there is only one of us.
http://CLIFFORDRENOVATIONS.COM
Andy,
I believe that Ian works across the water, where they have much higher air quality standards/laws and it may well be banned.
Most of my work was in Oz and in fact your VOCC regs are much stricter than there.
As far as toxicity and odor goes the waterbase is by far the less offensive of the film-forming finishes. I believe that in time it will replace oil-based completely -- certainly more pro-floorfinishers are changing to it. Admittedly, the ability to put on 2 coats the same day is a big plus as well.
IanDG
Could just be and a good thang too....wouldn't ya say?
Screw scratchs....save the air quality.
a...The secret of Zen in two words is, "Not always so"!
When we meet, we say, Namaste'..it means..
I honor the place in you where the entire universe resides,
I honor the place in you of love, of light, of truth, of peace.
I honor the place within you where if you are in that place in you
and I am in that place in me, there is only one of us.
http://CLIFFORDRENOVATIONS.COM
I disagree with the comment about water-borne being easier to re-finish/repair. They tend to be tougher because they put in lots of resin. But adhesion qualities are not as good as many oil-based products. I find it much easier to feather in a traditional oil-based varnish.
How about Waterlox? I've heard good things about it on the board. It's easier to repair than the newer polyurethane finishes. It's what I plan to use on my floors when I refinish. The glossy stuff is what they used to use on gym floors. Not sure about the VOCs though.
To recoat oil-based varnish you need to cut back for a mechanical key -- correct? This is not required for waterbase, simply clean the floor is all plus there's no odor stinking up the house for days.
You can also apply it over a light timber like maple and be confident that the whole floor won't look yellow in a couple of years because the coating has discolored -- as oil-based does.
IanDG
We do want something that will last so we don't have to redo this before our kids go off to college. Its a high traffic (but no water) area that has to hold up to kids, dogs, and life in the mountains (i.e. sawdust tracked in with firewood, chicken poop on the bottom of the shoes, rocks stuck in treads, etc.).
No hardwood floor, much less the finish on it, will come through this kind of abuse unscathed for such an extended period. You'll need to get rid of the shoes (for the most part anyway). You'll also have to acknowledge that your dogs will very likely scratch your floors. And unless scratches really don't bother you much, you'll be screening and re-applying this finish in less than 10 years at minimum. Depending on your tolerance and how you treat them, you may even be sanding and refinishing them again before your kids are in college.
Wood is beautiful but it does need maintenance.
As to your concern about the toxicity of finishes, you're taking care of the vast majority of that problem for your family by getting out of the house- that's smart. The person applying the finish can take the proper measures to keep themselves safe, and after a few days of ventilation there won't be much residual solvent to be concerned about if your house is properly ventilated to begin with. If it isn't, fix that problem as there are LOTS of other sources of VOCs and other pathogens in your house that only proper ventilation will remove. I'd recommend that for your situation, you put aside the worries about toxicity and get the most durable finish your floor installer can apply, and then have it applied fewer times. The waterborne finish technologies have improved considerably over time, but for my impression is still that the solventborne formulations are still superior.
I've used Glitsa in my current and previous house with great success. I've had big dogs in both and they weren't able to scratch the Glitsa. Glitsa is far from meeting your VOC requirements however. It's nasty and should be applied by a professional for a couple of reasons including their experience with using the product and access to the right safety apparatus. It stinks like you can't imagine. You NEED to be out of the house while it cures. Once cured though there's no odor. By the way, I think you're wise to farm out the finishing. I've installed a few floors, but sanding them is another story. I believe that floor sanding is a talent and your own hard work is not the place to learn how to sand.
Most all Moisture Cure products have been banned around here due to high VOC's but all the poly's seem to be not under scrutiny.
I HATE using Tung oil....Did my living room in it last year and hate it...I can't believe people recomend it for floors....Its just not real durable and I think somehow it attracts dust.
The same floors I polyed a cpl of months ago in the kitchen are holding up much better and for some reason don't see as much dust and both are a satin finish.
Be floored
####
The secret of Zen in two words is, "Not always so"!
When we meet, we say, Namaste'..it means..
http://CLIFFORDRENOVATIONS.COM
I'm not sure to many people put just Tung oil on as a finish. Last &Last is a tung oil Polyurethane. dries quick and very durable"The purpose of life is rapture. Here and now"
very few tung oils are 100% Tung oil....some are just better than others far as durability goes and some are real hard to apply while some are simply just using a lambs wool applicater and doing half a dozen coats.All I can talk about is my recent experiance in the same house but different rooms on a new wide plank floor I installed.The T O in the LR isnt holding up nearly as well within the same time frame as the poly is and to be honest with you I layed down the TO cause I wanted a soft look but the satin poly really doesnt look a whole lot different. Not as soft a look but not bad...so I have to weigh out the differences.The tung oil came with the floors I ordered from Carlisle Wide Plank Flooring (see their ads in FHB)which I'm sure you heard of.I donno....spose its just different strokes for different folks...no right or wrong in this case.I'll be using the poly on the floors I also finished/installed on the second floor as well as the first (about 1500 sq ft or better) a cpl a months ago using poly with no doubts
Be well bro
####The secret of Zen in two words is, "Not always so"!
When we meet, we say, Namaste'..it means..
I honor the place in you where the entire universe resides,
I honor the place in you of love, of light, of truth, of peace.
I honor the place within you where if you are in that place in you
and I am in that place in me, there is only one of us.
http://CLIFFORDRENOVATIONS.COM
Andy,
I'd highly recommend reading "Understanding Wood Finishing" by Bob Flenxer. The chapter on oil finishes was a real eye-opener for me. Your experience with the Tung Oil on the floor is exactly what I'd expect based on the explanation in the book. Basically it is a very thin finish - no matter how many coats - and will never provide protection against water and very little against abrasion - unless it is a Tung Oil / Varnish blend and not straight Tung Oil.
be finished
Wayne
Wayne
The tung oil I used said 100% T.O "but" when you look at the ingredients you see that there is poly mixed in there....still succks.
They say 100% I spose cause the tung oil IS 100% but they add other things....kinda weird phrasing.I know Piff used a mix w/T.O but only in his bedroom, not the whole house cause his installers as well as Piff to use that product was a serious pita. I forgethe name of it but I also know its rather expensive.
BE well bro
a...The secret of Zen in two words is, "Not always so"!
When we meet, we say, Namaste'..it means..
I honor the place in you where the entire universe resides,
I honor the place in you of love, of light, of truth, of peace.
I honor the place within you where if you are in that place in you
and I am in that place in me, there is only one of us.
http://CLIFFORDRENOVATIONS.COM
Wayne,
I agree that Flexner's book is excellent. It teaches you the "whys" so you can answer your own questions about different finishes. The first thing I did after reading his book was to get rid of the tung oil finish on the dining table I built and apply a "real" finish that stands up to water and alcohol (not in that order) and other abuse while not looking like plastic. It is silly that people have nice wood dining tables and then cover them up with tablecloths, etc. Might as well be unfinished plywood...
be shellacked
Billy
so I don't want high VOC, nor anything really toxic"
Dayna,
Welcome to Breaktime. The toxic VOC's are only there when the finish is applied. If your family is away, I'd go for the most durable within limits. Oil based poly is pretty darn good after about a month or so. While it does "dry" after a few hours, it really does take some time to fully catalyze (cures [cross links] by reacting with the oxygen it the air after the VOC's evaporate out.)
The most durable finish would probably be a catalyzed urethane similar to what's applied to those 25 year warantee pre-finished hardwood floors, and what's used to clear coat automobiles.
That type of finish is highly toxic when being laid down, but benign once cured. One would need full body protection and an outside source of air to work with it, but it is super durable once cured.
WSJ
My VOC concerns extend beyond the immediate application and my family. Can't say I'm too excited about exposing someone else (i.e. a contractor) intentionally to the fumes. Plus, we are only gone for 4 days in which he'll need to sand and finish 400 s.f. Also, I don't really want to support the chemical industry and their production of nasty chemicals that are banned in many places. So, for us, avoiding VOCs is more important that durability- although I've asked around on Bona's products and have heard of floors looking great after 20 years, which works for me. Thanks for your thoughts.
Don't want to support the chemical industry and nasty synthetic chemicals? Go with linseed or tung oil and wax, because that's about all you'll be able to manage with this ideology. Durability of the finish is poor and maintenance is high, but repair of the finish is easy. My brother did his living room floor using this system and it looks beautiful- and he has two active kids. But he and his wife both spend a lot of quality time with a floor buffer, and they have to strip wax from time to time as well... It was the desire to eliminate these tasks that resulted in the creation of modern polymer finishes in the first place.
Just keep in mind that merely because something is "natural" doesn't mean it's good for you, and just because something is waterborne doesn't mean that it is environmentally benign in manufacture or in application. Waterborne finishes clean up with water, but if you just wash that clean-up residue down the drain you've released toxic materials to the environment- materials that your local sewage plant will do virtually nothing to treat before they're released to whatever body of water receives their effluent. I use solvent-borne finishes and collect all my solvent wash residues, settle out the finish solids and re-use the filtered solvent for future clean-up. Yes, some solvent is released to the air during application. But you can see that both choices result in some environmental releases during application and clean-up.
Modern finishes are a godsend, and they're made using good manufacturing practices. Though no manufacturing process is without environmental risk or harm, I guarantee you that there are more environmental releases resulting from the ignorance and stupidity of amateur users of these materials than result from the activities of the manufacturers of these finishes.
Both Bona and Basic have sealers and finishes that are waterborne, tough enough for virtually any residential situation, and look quite good.
The waterbornes cure clear, and some might say they don't give the warm amber glow like an oil-based poly, but I would never use anything else. Both the manufacturers named above have additives that can give you that honey color, if that is what you want.
What I like about the high-end waterbornes is that my flooring sub can seal and recoat with the first coat of finish, both on day one, then give a light sanding, and apply both second and third coats of finish on day two.
The Bona Kemi product line is "Traffic," and from Basic Coatings, it's "Street Shoes."
Specs are downloadable from their websites. A flooring contractor will pay in the range of $70 per gallon for the topcoats. They are available in semigloss and satin.
Try this site. I've gotten good advice from them....
http://www.floormasters.com/wwwboard/wwwboard.html