Hey
I’m a foreman w/ a commercial outfit, so my list may differ from a strictly residential outfit, but help me out on this one, if you can.
I am trying to come up with a recommended list of must-have items for the apprentices. I try to be a patient teacher, but the can-I-borrows are wearing me down.
Bag and basics: hammer, knife, tape measure, square, 4-way screwdriver, pencil
Toolbox: container of some kind, some screwdrivers, snips, adjustible wrench, some kind of cutting plier, such as linemans, vise-grips, couple clamps, allen wrenches, flat bars, drywall saw, block plane, stone, scribes, cold chisel (say 1/2″), couple wood chisels, file (flat and round), t-bevel, chalk box, maybe a plumb bob, and a level.
Drill, prob. cordless, bits for drilling and driving, some taps and a handle for same.
Am I leaving anything out? Is this an unreasonable amount of stuff to ask of someone who is probably going to do this work for a good portion of their life?
I know that all at once it will be expensive, and that many folks buy in a little at a time.
How did you get your apprentices to buy tools? I have one who is great, been buying some tools over time, has acquired a pretty good kit so far. I have another who has a toolbox with apparently very little in it.
Thanks for your input
DC
Replies
I think some folks just like buying tools, for instance, my helper has his own paslode trim gun, table saw, sawzall, circ saw, whatever hand tools, and just gave me his old 12v makita drill, because he wanted an 18 v one. I've also had guys helping me who didn't have sh_t.
One of the trade rags had an article about this not too long ago. I can't remember if it was FHB or JLC. I've been sitting here flipping through my back copies and can't find it just yet but if I do I'll post it here for you.
Steve
S.J.MERRETTE Carpentry & Construction • Robesonia, PA
Nothing is impossible...It just hasn't been done yet.
Hi DC- a question a bit apart from what you originated, if an apprentice shows up with all his own tools and a bit of experience, what do you start him at on the pay scale?
hey.
I don't hire or fire.
I don't get to drive the train, or even ring the bell,
But let the Damn thing jump the track and see who catches hell!
Countersink, coping saw, hand saw, hack saw, awl
a couple others I saw today and thought to add.
Any others, some of the helpers I have had don't need to be told to bring the dope, but rather, to leave it at home.
thanks,
DC
Two very important tools - crowbar & nail puller.
Half a brain would be nice.
I think Dave Crosby wreote that article; I'm almost positive it was in JLC...I'd guess maybe late 2000, early 2001. Didn't he talk about having a list for newbies, then another list after a year, then another after 2 years, or something like that?
It was Dave Crosby. If I recall The list was;
1) your own Guitar I dont loan mine out
2) Plenty of picks
3) a 200 watt amp and speakers
4) Your own microphone, I dont want your spit all over mine!
5) your own Groupies, same reason as 4)
6) A van to haul all our #### in, preferably one that runs
7) Some free " blow" wouldn't hurt either.
8) A spare liver and kidneys would really impress me!
I cant remember the rest of the list.....
Mr. T
Layers
Onions
Have
Layers,
Carpenters
Have
Layers
Hey T
You forgot the most important thing for David C..A liver!lol
BE well
Namaste
Andy
October 2001 JLC
Thanks Mark.
I was going to look again tonight when I got home but you saved me the trouble.Steve
S.J.MERRETTE Carpentry & Construction • Robesonia, PA
Nothing is impossible...It just hasn't been done yet.
Thanks, all
I no longer get JLC, but will look for a copy of the Oct. issue. If it is something that can be quickly scanned or something, that would be a help.
And, yes, if all else fails, tell 'em to go sweep.
Wake up, dumbass, I said sweep.
Some of the folks I work with class certain helpers and alleged carps as "bristles down" kind of workers.
DC
Jim's right, that was me.
The list grew out of finding myself in the very same position as DCASSII.
Nine person crew -- some who would show up 5 minutes early every day, work until I said stop, learn something new every chance they got, and haunt the yard sales every Saturday looking for used tools. Then there's those who drag their baggy pants velcro shoes wearin' slack-jawed self propelled attitude problem in to work (?) 10 minutes late, screw up what little they touched, and be the first one to wonder like, dude, whaddaya gotta do to get a raise around here?
What I really wanted to do was knock them out but it was more than enough trouble just trying to fire them.
Just like DC said, no hirin', no firin', but boy howdy let something go wrong.
Even worse was the lame excuses. Supposed employees showing up without the basics, and somehow I still need to get the job done.
I explained the situation to my employer, and proposed this list as a fair and reasonable way to get a rope around the problem. After all, it was in his best interest, too.
In addition to the list you saw in JLC, I would explain to everyone that these tools are part of your job description; even if you're a helper and all you need is work boots and the gloves and safety glasses that I issued to them on day one. If you're being paid as a helper and you show up without what's on the helper list, you don't get to work that day. For those who didn't drive and rode with someone else, the prospect of sitting there unpaid all day seemed to have the desired effect.
What that list amounted to was a way for me to get the good ones promoted, provide incentive to the salvagable ones, and squeeze out the losers. It worked.
Now that I'm working for myself it seems to be quite a bit easier to motivate people.
As for the groupies, guitars, hair, liver, etc, don't worry. I've got it covered.
Milkbones for everyone just for leaving Melissa out of this. <G>
DRC
Hey money for nothin and the chicks for free ya dont know how long ive been waiting to say that.
Tool bag, decent transportation, good attitude, ethics and a able to do what theyre are told and smart enough to ask questions when they dont know something or arent sure..
Darkworksite4: When the job is to small for everyone else, Its just about right for me"
Personally, I'm sick of the "Dude,you should have seen the hellacious partying/spending I did on the payday weekend" stories as an excuse for not buying even the basics!
I have three HD Olfa knives I use in my timber framing/finishing duties that are forever borrowed along with tape,HAMMER!, and other stuff,due to forgetfulness, the above favorite excuse, and/or the lax attitude of this latest generation.
What is a carp./apprentice without a HAMMER?!
Digging trenches when I get my way!
Cheers, thanks for the venting time,Phil.If it is to be, 'twil be done by me..
My suggestions are all safety related.
Goggles, steel toe boots, metararsal guards, a pair of soccer shin guards, and a hard hat. A good selection of work gloves. A good respirator with an exhaust valve.
I have dropped heavy objects on my foot, missing the steel toes, thus the suggestion for the metatarsal guards that can be clipped on when needed.
And I banged up my shins more then I care to remember - thus the soccer shin guards for those occasions when danger lurks.
Hard hat is handy if you have to crawl around in a low pitched hip roof attic with many nails protruding through the roof sheeting. The bubba baseball cap will not save your scalp.
And if you see someone working toward a bad case of tennis elbow or lower back pain, please correct their form and posture.
Oh yeah, one more item - assortment of hats for hot and cold season.
Commercial work, mostly. Hard hat and glasses furnished. Some sites very funny about respirators and will not permit untested individuals to use them.
Boots required, steel toe site to site.
I'm not really concerned with all the safety gear for stuff like hanging doors or bath hardware, for example. Not to sound insensitive, but there you have it.
Thanks,
DC
There are a couple of things I think you should take oof of you list.
1. Drill bits unless you make it clear that you will replace dull or broken bits.
2. Taps, agian unless the above applies.
I worked 14 years as a non union carpenter in commercial construction. Early on I figured out I was subsidizing a multi-million dollar a year corporation out of my pocket! Many times my truck gang box was better eguiped than the "job box." I just counted 23 stell circular saw blades hanging on nails in my shop from those days. They are all hanging on the "dull" side of the joist bay.
My tools were MINE. If I burn them out, bust them up, or they are damaged beyond repair while making money for some one other than me, THEY pay to fix or replace them.
Part of the costs of running a construction company are the tools. Handtools are basic for any carp on any job. Power tools have a limited life and should be furnished by the company.
Sorry about the rant, but knowone that ever worked for me when I employed them as a remodeling contractor ever had to furnish thier own power tools.
Dave
believe it or not, the fine firm I have gone to work for does not furnish knife blades. Had I known that earlier...
Yes, I can buy replacement drill bits and taps, but shouldn't you show some sort of commitment by buying the first one of each?
DC
I supply my own power tools and have all bits, blades, taps, and whatever else I feel that I need to do my job and be as well stocked and prepared as I can be. Last company I worked for furnished or replaced all blades, etc., as well as paid for tool repair and servicing. Also, since I am well furnished, stocked, and prepared, and have my own tools, I get paid a commensurate rate.
Ken Hill
Edited 5/9/2002 1:46:06 AM ET by Ken Hill
Ken,
What is a comensurate level? If you bring $1200. worth of power tools and excessories to the job everyday, do you make $0.58/ hour more than the guy that only has his hand tools? That is the minimum it would cost you to replace them in a year. That doesn't include your time to go shop for them.
That $1200 figure may be a little low. I had that much stolen from me in hand tools alone in 1981 (one medium Kennedy tool box).
Dave
Dave-
I figure I'm worth perhaps a dollar more than the guy (of equal abilities and skills) who brings only his hand tools. Perhaps the exception would be when the company I work for keeps a trailer or box van on site fully stocked. It's a case-by-case. As well as tools I keep a lot of misc. stuff on had. Saves a lot of trips to the lumber yard or calls to the office for the runner to pick stuff up and then have to wait- or to make do with something that barely works but is not the right thing.
I do have pride in my preparedness and I think it shows commitment. This is part of the package I offer to an employer who hires me. If it's not worth anything to them, then that's certainly not the situation for me.
Ken Hill
Good for you Ken. I guess I have gotten a little jaded over the years. I did much the same thing as you are doing, and it eventualy got me the title and responsibility of "construction superintendent". The money still wasn't that great, but I sure learned a whole other side of the construction business. I wish you all the success and luck in you future endeavors.
Dave
All you guys that work for firms that furnish all required power tools, and/or don't have to fight to get your own repaired, do you need any help?
I should more than apologize. I jumped the construction ship many years ago, and climbed on the mantenance gravey train. I am furnished darn near everything except my skivies. Aside from the hassales you are dealing with my age and the lack of any real benefit plan is what drove me out. I still do small remodels as a part time business, but it is mostly because I still love it , and I can BUY MORE TOOLS!
Again, I mean you no disrespect.
Dave
No harm, no foul. How did you get hooked up with maintenance, and do you still like it? I wonder if I'd go nuts going to the same place every day.
Course, I've worked at some places for so long I thought I lived there.
I got lucky. I years after I remarried the utiity company DW worked for was hiring in the building manitenance department. I got on because of her good connections (she worked in HR).
First week, BIG storm, I worked 32 hours ot hauling meals for the storm trouble teams. Second week, by Wed. I was ready to quit. Took a $2000.00/yr. cut in pay, to not be the boss, and work in a 75 year old building that reminded me of the catacombs on Malta. I kept saying benefits, retirement,job security, eventual top dollar of 50% more than I was getting in construction. That was my mantra, and a very supportive wife. I was the only carpenter in our group then, so it did get better.
I laugh about it now, but it was hard to swallow when i first started. Now I also laugh at the people that constantl bitch about the company. Most of them have never worked anywhere else, and don't have clue just how good they have it. I make union electrician wages,and now that there are only four of us left in the department, I get more ot than I want.
If you ever get the chance to make the move, you will find it very similar to construction. Lots of challanges and problems to solve. A lot of new skills to learn, and plenty of opportunity to grow. I would say that about 75% of the remodeling work I do now comes from work contacts. It is good work, even though it is for a large impersonal corporation.
Dave
Lets see..., I spend 50 cents or whats the upper limit... $50, to prove to you that I am committed to working for you?
If I am a rookie, and I assume you are paying me as such, I show up for work every day, on time, and do what you tell me to do. You have given me an oportunity to learn from you, the master carpenter. I ask question, you answer, you teach skills,I learn. Each day under you guidance I get a litte bit better. Each week I try to add to my new learned skill by purchasing a tool that I now know how to use. This is what I expect for a starting wage. As the months and maybe years go by, I become a trusted employee, and you recognize my value by giving raises. That is te type of commitment both of us should bring to the job each day.
What about the guy that just can't get certin things? How is he treated? You have given him a list of things that he may never completly master, yet from you post, you may keep him on a broom. Does he furnish the broom or the shovel?
I have worked for people that pigon holed different guys, because they weren't the sharpest knife in the drawer.I have also had the pleasure of working with those same guys one on one, and finding a way to teach them my trade. One fellow in particular became a superintendent for the very guy that told me he was just a big dummy.
I'll bet you have more than one hammer, and a few cloth nail aprons laying around. Not many kids that come out of high school these days are interested enough in construction to even come on a job and ask for employment. Why run off the few that do by giving them a list of tools they must have? If it were me, I would be thinking...d*mn, it will be months before I do anything but spend my paycheck on tools!
I am one that just happens to think that the master has an obligation to the apprentice.
Dave
I have a commitment to and a responsibility to the apprentice. This is true.
However, I also believe that this is a two-way obligation. Luke didn't come to Yoda and have an attitude problem, no light saber and want to leave early after showing up 15 minutes late.
If there is the least bit of interest in learning the craft, I'm more than willing to sacrifice productivity in the interest of providing a lesson or two. Training pays off something like five-fold. Notice I said interest, rather than potential. I am not the one do determine potential skill level; further, I can say that someone who isn't wizard-level can be a very effective contributor to the team effort. If I take the time to work with them and teach them, and hopefully mold them into an employable carpenter.
We have a moral obligation to find willing apprentices and help them to learn.
I know this, and it was not in the spirit of degradation that I started this conversation. My intent here is to poll the field to get some input on what an apprentice should have. I'll help and help a kid try to get a grip on a task if he is willing. The ones who don't care are less reachable.
But the fact of the matter is, if an apprentice is to learn, he must have some sort of basic kit. Sure I have a hammer or 5 in the truck. Sure I have 3 or 4 tape measures. That's not the point when a kid shows up on my job after the office says he's a carpenter helper with 3 years of experience.
What has he accumulated after 3 years?
My sense of the situation is that in some cases, the hypothetical apprentice has accumulated the same year of experience 3 times.
Anyhow, I don't hire or fire, they don't work for me, so much as work on my job. I'm an employee of a firm, no real control over anything but the day to day stuff on my job. But I do try to get these kids straightened out into employable, productive carpenters that you don't have to be afraid to work around.
I think as part of their commitment to the trade they have chosen, they need to furnish a workable tool kit. No, they don't have to bring every tool under the sun, most power tools are company furnished.
Thanks for your input on the discussion.
DC
My apologies. I worked for a company much like you are working for. It was tough, because I wasn't given all of the management tools to do my job. I wasn't even given a spread sheet of the job cost. My help was sent too, much as you desribe, and I had to make do as best I could. I went from that superindendent job to a crew foreman job for another company. I became part of the management team of that company and was totaly ammazed at how much more I could accomplish with basically the same type of crew I had at the first company. Later, when the first company ask me to return, I was better prepared to negotiate how much control I could exercise over and on the job.
I agree that some one who shows up with three years experience should have your basic list of tools and a good attitude. I cualed the whinners, slackers, and goof-offs by sending them home a few times. If the front office questioned my decision on personel management, I said fine... you run the job and I'll go home! Sounds a little cocky, but it worked. I really hope you can reach some understanding with the people you work for, to let you have the management tools you need to do your job.
Thae best of luck to you.
Dave
I agree. No way do I think an employee should be required to furnish power tools.
The world's full of apathy, but I don't care