Being one o’clock in the morning, it goes without saying that this problem is keeping me up at night. <!—-><!—-> <!—->
My wife and I are nearing he end of a gut renovation of our home. You know the story; over-due, over-budget, over-tired. Our house is sided with a high quality red cedar shingle. Roughly 14 square of kiln dried, eighteen inch R&R’s, showing around 7 1/2 inches to the weather, each neatly secured with stainless ring shanks. Laced corners, each drilled and secured with a nail at the bottom corner. All in all that sounds like a top notch job. When the house (located in <!—-> <!—->Eastern Massachusetts<!—->) was being sided in February I asked the GC why he wasn’t gapping the shingles. He laughed and told me not to worry, “You don’t need to do that.”<!—-><!—->
That was February. It was dry.<!—-><!—->
There is no need to post a picture of what happens to Red Cedar shingles, which have been butted so tight they could pass for lap siding, once the <!—->New England<!—-> spring blesses them. The regional Cedar Bureau rep told me but I cannot recall how much expansion occurs over a foot of Red Cedar shingles. I can tell you all from experience that the amount of expansion is great enough to freeze the upper sash of several brand new, expen$ive double hung windows in their frames. <!—-><!—->
So I am here seeking advice from you all. This isn’t so much about finger pointing or being right. Its not an ego trip. I just want the problem fixed. The CG wants to selectively remove the shingles that have popped and replace only those. I am not convinced that will solve the window problem nor provide a long term solution to seasonal movement. The answer to me seems clear. The house should be resided. Anyone have any ideas on how to bring this to a resolution? If you would rather not post a reply to this, feel free to email me at [email protected]
Thanks in advance.
Parkinson’s Law: ‘Work expands so as to fill the time available for its completion.’
Replies
is this yur second thread on his subject????
expect cross over... you may want to contact the moderator and ask to have one killed...
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This is the only thread on this topic. I deleted a previous post and reposted under Red Cedar Blues. Thanks.Parkinson's Law: 'Work expands so as to fill the time available for its completion.'
We use a lot more white cedar in New England than red. White cedar shingles are green when new and they shrink. Red are dry and have to be spaced. Roofs require spacing of white as well as extra for the reds. Your installer probably didn't know the difference. Installing cedar shingles is very labor intensive. Chances of pulling off the existing and saving very much are not good. Do you intend to put a coating of some kind on the siding? This will limit the amount of water the shingles can absorb.
We have had some very wet weather this spring. I would wait until things dry out. Jammed windows isn't a good sign. The shingles around the perimeter of doors and windows can be removed and replaced with larger gaps. Using a coating when things are dry may help with future swelling. One of the most common culprits for windows jamming, is stuffing the side gaps too tightly with insulation. If you have long, uninterrupted, runs of siding, just doing the perimeter of the windows may not be sufficient. Removing a vertical strip and replacing with larger gaps may solve the issue without completely re-doing the siding. Eventually, the shingles will shrink but they may not shrink enough in your case.
Beat it to fit / Paint it to match
Hammer1 -
Your idea of removing the windows and then a few courses around the windows and gapping those areas might work, I think it would make the finished product look odd. Essentially, some areas of the house would be gaped and others not.
I had considered a coating early on prior to going with the reds. Maibek makes a nice diped shingle available in a variety of standard or even custom colors. I opted for the reds thinking that we would allow them to weather naturally.
I'm don't have high hopes for waiting to see how things dry out. After the flooding rains of a few weeks ago we had a spell of dry weather. Nothing moved back to its original shape/position.
Parkinson's Law: 'Work expands so as to fill the time available for its completion.'
I would check with an attorney NOW, just to find out exactly where you stand and what option you have.A number of states now require that you give the contractor first option to repair.And in MO they past a new law last year that has that and requires a lot of specific notices and requirements that you have to jump through before you can sue."I had considered a coating early on prior to going with the reds."BTW, No coating (at least any commonly available "paint") will stop the transfer of moisture.It will slow it down, but not stop it.
I don't know if it would work, but here's something to try. Score each shingle 1/8" to 1/4" on one of its side. Insert a chisel at the bottom of the score to split the shingle. Get a rod to push up under the above shingle to continue the split. Pick the side of the shingle that has a grain most parallel to the side.
Man! A) a lot of work
B) could end up looking like a pile of .... with an 1/8 inche gap here and a gap there and another over there. You could end up HAVING to rip it all off.
What do you guys think, should I let the original contractor perform the work to resolve the problem?Parkinson's Law: 'Work expands so as to fill the time available for its completion.'
If he did a nice clean job of installing the shingles--aside from the gaps--I would say probably so, unless there's already a lot of acrimony and you don't want him around your house. Are you able to assess the quality of the flashing details around doors and windows? Also, what were the shingles installed over?
The installation problem is very easy to document. Go to the cedarbureau.org website and download the wall manual. All work should be done to those specs.
I would pursue the state licensing avenue but I would retain a lawyer on this one, right away. You need the contractor put on notice immediately that he will be paying to fix this. Does he have insurance or a bond? I would be looking to put a letter from a lawyer in front of him within a few days, and also ask the lawyer about the bond.
I'm really sorry to hear of this problem. There are so many of us in this industry that strive to do quality work, and then there are the few who blunder along like your installer. Even cedar shingles come with instructions.
tree.. i feel your contractor's pain.. i feel your pain
red cedars .. i assume these are R&R ? is that right ?
first.. single coursing.. with an 18" shingle , the max exposure should be 1/3 (-).. in this case... something between 5 1/2 to 6"..
you have 7 1/2 " this is true for both reds & whites
2d... my first job with reds was about '64.. and i was working with an old timer who taught me how to plane shingles with a hatchet .. i learned two things on that job... 1) never hang a razor sharp hatchet in you hammer holster... your forearm will pay the price
2).. you can fit a dry red cedar TOO tight.. after the first rain.. the north side was buckled.... our boss was displeased.. had to be ripped and redone.. but not the whole house
in your instance.. if you guys are good with the 7 1/2" exposure, you could thief the buckled shingles out and replace them in the field
the windows: lemme guess .. they were shingled right up to the vinyl jambs...hmmmm we always trim our windows with casing and a false sill.. so we don't have the hour-glass problem.. we also make sure the windows are operating before we case them .. in and out..
the hour glass could very well be related to how they were insulated and cased.. as pointed out previously
if the shingles are in fact squeezing the jambs, the shingles around the window should be stripped and thiefed.. leaving a gap all the way around
shingling... as with anything.. the devil is in the detailsMike Smith Rhode Island : Design / Build / Repair / Restore
If the guy made a mistake and is otherwise easy to work with, let him fix the problem. Naturally you need to agree exactly how the work is to be done. If he wants to do it half-way, then you have a problem. To go with another contractor likely means going to court to get teh first guy to pay for another contractor.
Work with the guy, if possible.
Wow.... you have a solid lawsuit if I ever heard of one. That's a completely defective installation. I would not settle for anything less than a complete replacement. You could try to cut relief between the shingles where exposed, but what about under the laps? Your builder is going to eat the big one.
davidmeiland
Yeah, it seems to be heading that way. I arrived at the house today and the dumpster was gone without any warning. It feels like hes taking a position not to seek a resolution without some sort of outside intervention. Over the course of the job I walked away from a few other screwups but I am not willing to walk away from this one.
I had hoped that other breaktimers might have suggestions about how to mediate this. I certainly didnt want to have to hire a lawyer. Nobody (but the lawyer) wins in that situation. I am investigation options throught the state board but they seem to be an understaffed operation. Parkinson's Law: 'Work expands so as to fill the time available for its completion.'
It's a long process, but it's there just for this reason.
http://www.mass.gov/bbrs/hic.htm
If insulation is not the problem, my suggestion is similar to Mike Smith's. Provide an expansion gap around window and / or doors with trim pieces to allow expansion, but conceal the gap.....as found in vinyl siding applications.
I would make sure that them windows were`nt shimmed to tight to begin with or do the tracks need a little silicone spray.Have you looked at the trim around the windows and is it buckling there and at the doors also or is it mid span on the wall and have you had strong winds that could have worked those shingles loose from a nails that may not have been placed well perhaps in a seem in the sheathing . Its a process of elimination focus on the whole picture,because there may be something else that has been over looked.Good luck with your problem i hope it gets corrected soon .
gud got tree... dat's da biggest pic of the smallest thing i've ever seen
(Version 2 of earlier post with smaller image)
Mike - Good thoughts. However dont you think it would appear odd if one were to look at the house and see either the shingles around the windows gapped or a gap between the siding and the window casing around the windows? In fact leaving a gap between the siding and the casing around the window would provide a entry point for water/weather would it not?
Attached is a picture of an average offender. Yes by the way, they are R&Rs and I correct the exposure, its 5 3/4 to 6 1/4 inches.
Hope your arm healed ok. Dont put the hatchet there anymore.Parkinson's Law: 'Work expands so as to fill the time available for its completion.'
tree... those are still too large by a factor of 10
here's some R&R.. typical...
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Mike Smith Rhode Island : Design / Build / Repair / Restore
Edited 6/7/2006 9:18 pm ET by MikeSmith
Edited 6/7/2006 9:21 pm ET by MikeSmith
Nice pictures. I remember when mine looked like that.Parkinson's Law: 'Work expands so as to fill the time available for its completion.'
tree.. if this widow is typical....
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then i don't think the Red Cedars are squeezing the jambs.. the casing would prevent thatMike Smith Rhode Island : Design / Build / Repair / Restore
It depends entirely on how well the casing is nailed to the wall. If all he did was shoot a couple of finish nails in, then the cedar will easily push it.
Dave - The windows are pre-hung from a national manufacturer from M----n. As I said previously, its the uppers that are frozen on three of the windows. The longer the run of shingles between the window the greater the expansion of shingles. I cant see how there would not be a relationship between the length of the run and the amount of expansion.
TreeParkinson's Law: 'Work expands so as to fill the time available for its completion.'
My expectation, with deference to Mike Smith (who knows more than I do), is that the shingles could easily expand enough to force the trim over. I have cedar shingles on my own house and basically there are three layers of wood totalling about 7/8" thickness at any given point. Now, the under layers won't get as wet from rain as the outer, but humidity is a different story, and if all 7/8" of that cedar expands it's going to exert a lot of force. I read a story once about a stone house with an oak floor abandoned somewhere... the roof leaked, the floor got wet... and the crossgrain expansion of the oak forced the walls out a bit.
Now, I can't see your windows from here, but if I could I'd get a level or straightedge and carefully check the trim around the windows to see if it's consistently bowed inward. I'd also check the windows in general to see what the hell is going on.
Hopefully you are on your way to getting some sort of settlement out of the original guy, and getting a new/better guy to strip and replace, and tune up the windows.
FWIW I put the shingles on my house soaking wet. They have since shrunk a tad bit and the gaps are perfect. They went on with 1/8" gaps everywhere
dave.. i'm glad you posted that..
BTW.. i've often seen guys laying R&R's with a block plane.. ( one of my fastidious workers loves to do that too )
but my personal experience is that R & R's can be installed dry right out of the box..
standard practise is to snap a line for the butts of the course, then TACK a furring strip to that line, set your R&R on the furring strip & just nudge them until the touch the previous one.. don't let them stair-step
and don't try to improve on the fit better than they came out of the mill.. you can.. but the result is the disaster shown in Tree's pics
the small imperfections in the squaring and rebutting gives just enough spacing so they will be no bulging.. yet the installation still looks very crisp and formal.. like a red cedar sidewall is supposed to
Mike Smith Rhode Island : Design / Build / Repair / Restore
I have installed lots of #1 and #2 bundled shingles, which are usually wet or soaking wet depending on the season (stored outdoors at my lumber yard) and a fair number of boxed prefinished R&R shingles from Teal Cedar.
On the bundled shingles I find myself planing damn near every one, on at least one edge. Usually just 1-2 swipes. Once I get in the groove I can straighten them up really, really quickly. My eye wants to see parallel gaps, just like it wants to see the butt lines really straight.
I agree that the R&R are mostly ready to go up, but I probably plane the edge of every 3rd or 4th one to make the gaps parallel. Out here they are almost always set 1/8" to 1/4" apart. Maybe that's just the regional thing.
A buddy of mine did his house and for lack of experience he set them quite wide, and without ledgeboards, so the butts are not gnats-#### straight... it looks a lot more rustic and pretty cool actually, and I'm sure it's just as good mechanically.
Dave - These are Teal R&Rs unfinished.Parkinson's Law: 'Work expands so as to fill the time available for its completion.'
I don't think the finishing makes much difference at all as far as the expansion goes. If they are installed in the dry season they will get bigger during the wet season. The teal shingles I've put up were crispy dry.
For reference, I put my shingles up January thru March, and this is Washington state. They were very wet and I got wet too. They shrunk down just right by July. If I were putting on KD shingles in the summer I'd space them out quite a bit.
In what moonth are you laying them "dry right out of the box?" And with a block plane, no less, as are mine.Parkinson's Law: 'Work expands so as to fill the time available for its completion.'
we lay them dry ,right out of the box , every month
we do not use block planes , or anything else to resquare them..
they are resquared at the mill.. any variation of out of square will allow them just enough room to expand when they get wet in the rain
if someone is resquaring them with a plane and then tightly fitting them , they have no expansion room and they bulge like yours
dave says he resquares them .. but then he leaves a gap..
if you lay them right out of the box, and don't force them.. you don't need a gap.. the minute out-of-squareness will auto-gap them
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also.... in your first description.. you talked about laced corners.. and you mentioned that the corners were all nailed.. i take it to mean , thye used a fine nail thru the face and into the butt edge to close the corner
that's a bad technique.. it's how i was taught, and it's fairly common.. but it's wrong
the shingle corners should be lapped and scribed and layed, but you don not need a nail to close the corner..
if you come back and look at corners that were nailed that way , you will find a lot of splits and pieces of corners missing
Mike Smith Rhode Island : Design / Build / Repair / Restore
Edited 6/8/2006 6:21 pm ET by MikeSmith
Edited 6/8/2006 6:26 pm ET by MikeSmith
Mike - Absolutely on the money about the laced corners. It lokks like a small penny galvinized box nail. But they are splitting at the nail leaving little triangles haning around. To trim the corners the crew used a laminate trimmer to scribe the edge and a block plane to clean it up.Parkinson's Law: 'Work expands so as to fill the time available for its completion.'
I am told by the Cedar Bureau rep that it is in the building code that red cedar shinlges must be gapped when installed. Is anyone familiar with this? How is that regulation interpreted in the field?Parkinson's Law: 'Work expands so as to fill the time available for its completion.'
without looking at the code.. i would doubt that it says that
frankly... i think the cedar bureau does a poor job of getting the correct information out to the end users
if i recall correctly.. they still have it in their spec that you can apply cedar roofs on felt paper right on the roof sheathing
if i have a question about cedar.. i don't call the cedar bureau.. i call Liberty Cedar .. there is usually someone there that can correctly answer the technical questionsMike Smith Rhode Island : Design / Build / Repair / Restore
Mike, it is interesting that you don't like or don't think it a good idea to install cedar shingles or shakes over sheathing. I can understand that air would be a good thing to have under the shakes, but the reality is that millions of homes have had their shakes installed over plywod decks. My house was. It lasted 35 years. Perhaps over step shealthing they would have lasted longer, don't know. but compared to most asphalt installed at teh time my original shingles were installed, it did pretty good. ??????????????
depends on your climate...drying cycle... pitch of roof ... and exposure
low pitch roofs in our climate are toast in 15 years...
Mike Smith Rhode Island : Design / Build / Repair / Restore
Its also possible that the shingles were nailed to high to begin with however i do agree that they do look to be applied to tightly
Well said. I deleted that and reposted. ThxParkinson's Law: 'Work expands so as to fill the time available for its completion.'