I was looking for a little information in “Wood -Flooring Problems, and their Solutions” article in January 2009 issue of Fine Homebuilding. I would like a little more information on the tradeoffs of oil based and water based polyurethane finishes. What about wearability, how do they compare? How many coats should be applied for each method. What about ambering? Secondly, has anyone had experience with the 4 head sanders. How do you like it. Does it do the job?
Thank you
Replies
I can't answer your question precisely so I'm adding this post to bump the thread back up to the top where it may be seen by others who are better able to do so.
My most recent experience with water based polyurethane on oak floors has proved to be better than expected. I applied it with a roller on a six foot long handle. Easy and quick with very little odor and simple tool clean up.
From what I've read here, the newer type of floor sanders are easier to operate and don't take as much material off in the process. I've used the older drum sanders a half dozen times over the years. I had to be careful, particular when beginning a pass, in order to avoid gouging the floor.
I'm looking forward to trying one of the new ones soon.
Edited 12/19/2008 11:36 am by Hudson Valley Carpenter
pestocat, I've used both and refinished many floors. Here's the deal; If your floors are VERY rough, deep scratches dents and other floor damage then the four head sander will not be satisfactory. The four head will remove the old finish but will not "level" the floor. All those deep scratches and dents will still be there with old finish in/on them. But if the floor is in good shape, then the four head is GREAT! Easy to use, will not gouge the floor , just removes the finish. On the other hand, if the floor is badly damaged then it's time for the drum. But I would not recommend the drum sander to the inexperienced. They will ruin a floor in a second if you're not very careful and patient. They remove wood FAST, easy to create low spots and very uneven floor. But with proper use will turn an ugly damaged floor into a thing of beauty. As far as finish I'm old school and use oil base. No real reason just have always used them and like the finish and durability. And no less than 2 coats, 3 or more in high traffic areas.So..how bad is your floor?? Hope this helps. Bill D. Quality Wood Chips since 1986.
without experience a drum sander can totally ruin a floor. The 4 head does take a lot longer and isn't really the piece if the floors are deeply gouged or need major leveling.. However it's perfect for a new or novice floor finisher to work with. there is one other type it's a square pad sander..(about 20x24) it's sort of a cross between the four head finisher and the grind of a drum sander... works faster BUT STILL IS PERFECT FOR new or those with little experience..
Finish.. I use shellac because it's a great finish, safe, fast, easy and pretty much fool proof .
Let's deal with myths first
shellac is really tough.. Yes I know it's used on the finest antiques but just because it brings out the real beauty of wood doesn't mean that it's fragile or delicate in any way.. In fact my 150 pound New Fundland who doesn't trim his claws hasn't damaged my floor. that's over 3 years he's run jumped and skidded on it without damage.
When he finally succeeds in damaging the finish all I need to do is take a rag soaked in denatured alcohol and rub it briskly back and forth for a moment.. (if small children are watching be sure to say Abra Cadabra and they will gasp as the scratch disappear.)
Water won't harm shellac if it's wiped up in a few hours.. you can even spill beer wine and booze on it if you promptly wipe it up.
Shellac is safe you've been eating shellac all of your life. It's on pills and a lot of candy.
It's insane easy to apply and even easier to repair should that ever become needed.
Plus it's cheap!
You can start shellacking tomorrow morning and by tomorrow at lunch time be putting furniture back in place. an hour or so later there won't be any fumes at all to smell..
It smells like a doctors office when going down but quickly dissipates. The last half hour there is this gentle soft sweet smell as the shellac hardens..
Shellac is renewable, biodegradable, and environmentally friendly. Ask and I'll give you step by step instructions which makes it fast and easy to apply to a fool proof finish.
I used 1 coat shellac to pop the color and 2 coats catalytic water base. Looks great and wearing well.
A new house up the street was almost finished when it caught fire and burned. I figured it was the oil based poly because every part of the house was evenly charred. They had to tear down the remains and rebuild.
It went up faster the second time.
I'm not sure given the way you wrote it, but in terms of speed and aggressiveness from most to least:Drum sander
4 head sander
orbital pad sanderIt has to do with how much time is spend changing direction, when for a split second it stops. And the pad sander spends a lot of time (relatively speaking) stopped.
I recently had a chance to use a 4 pad sander and with the same grit I found the square pad sander much faster than the 4 pad sander.
My floors were all done with square pad sanders and operating them really was easy. Simply tip it in the direction I wanted it to go and it glided that direction.. the floors started out pretty rough. I milled my own flooring and well, I wasn't as carefull as I should have been about the thickness. Once down sanding was my only option and since we're talking about as much as 1/8th of an inch differance between planks that's a lot of sanding in 500 sq.ft. (x2) It took me about 6 hours of sanding to get everything baby butt smooth.
When I recently used a 4 pad sander I found it took me over 4 hours to remove just the finish from about 350 sq.ft. and I think it would have required massively more to have leveled the even boards I had to do for the bridge or billard room..
Not to mention with the square pad sander I didn't have any trouble getting into corners completely!
From thjat - it sounds like you are copmparing finishing raw wod with square pad to re-finishing a film finished with pad sander - let's try apples to apples. A four pad does more work any day of the week. The pad is best for minor refinish surfacing.
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I've used the pad sander on raw wood new floors. Great for a home owner. Takes more time then a drum sander but much more forgiving. I would like to have used the four pad sander, but no my area has one for rent. I also used a pad sander to redo my deck. Did a great job and gave my arms a work out.
Thank you everyone with all your comments and experience. I have experience with the drum sander as I installed about 1500 sq. feet of oak and then sanded using the sander and had good success. From all your comments I will go with the drum sander and then finish with the oil base poly and go with 3 coats this time.
pestocat
Take a look at Basic Coatings' "Street Shoe" product. It's a water based catalyzed finish that is incredibly durable -- in fact it is used for basketball court floors. It is expensive, at around $95 canadian / gallon, but it's only necessary for the top coat. Sealing coats should be Basic's Emulsion or Hydroline product, both comparable in pricing to Polyurethane.Emulsion will give you the beauty of amber colour that comes from an oil based coating without the stink or hassle. Hydroline or Commercial Catalized sealer will give you a very neutral colour, if that's the look you're going for.All in all, an excellent product line. I wouldn't use anything else.http://www.basiccoatings.com
Edited 12/27/2008 10:12 pm ET by jamiep
to underline what others have said about the drum sanders and inexperienced folks, there are lots of stories around but one that sticks in my mind is a guy who managed to trip the breaker when using a borrowed one. He went into the basement to re-set it, but forgot that he still had the switch on at the machine.
When he flipped the breaker, he heard the noise upstairs, but his reaction was too slow. The machine catapulted itself across the room and ran out through the slidi8ng glass doors - without stopping to open one first.
I like the ease and lack of odor with the water based finishes, but you can't beat the way the oil brings out the beauty of the wood. it adds a deep rich amber tone as well, but is you have something like Maple and want to keep it as light coloured as possible, use the water base.
You can do the water based with 2-4 coats
Oil - rarely more than three coats, and be absolutely sure that each is cured before doing the next or it will not harden off properly because the oil pol is oxygen cured. If you recaot before the curing one is done, not more O2 gets to it to cure it so it stays jellied and soft.
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Taunton University of Knowledge FHB Campus at Breaktime.
where ...
Excellence is its own reward!
NO WAY!!!...out THRU the slider???? No doubt those things got some gription. Is that a true story or one of them made-up ones. Come on no one would really do that ...would they?? Bill D.
I believe I read it right here at BT, so it must be true;)
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Pesto-
I refinished the oak floors in my folks' house with a 4 head U-sand I rented from Home Depot. Everyone else is correct - they are slow, but they do a really nice job without any major risk. Do not be afraid to start with a course grit sandpaper. The first time I used one, I didn't buy any disks less than 60 grit because the floors were in pretty good shape. Well, that took a long time just to get the old finish off. You really have to start course (I think the next disk down is a 40) to make good progress. I also used a little 1/4 sheet hand sander with the same grit paper to get into the corners of the room. Pull the shoe molding off the baseboards before you sand the floor - that way you won't have to do any finish sanding around the perimeter (put them back after the floor is completely finished). If you leave the shoe on the baseboard, you will have to do some touch up sanding around the perimeter of the room, as the U-sand will not sand the area where the floor meets the shoe perfectly. Sand the floor with progressively finer grits. I believe I stopped at 150, becuase the floors were nice and smooth with no visible scratches. Some folks feel you should go up to 220. As for the finish, I used Minwax water-based base coat and water-based satin poly. Base coat (also called sanding sealer) is really just diluted poly - put a coat on, wait for it to dry, and then nock down the raised grain. I used a sanding block with some 150 or 220 paper (can't remember), vacuumed up the dust, and then put down two more coats. I did not sand the finish between coats, only after sealer. If you forgo sealer, just put down three coats of poly and sand after the first. In my opinion, there is no need to use the machine once the finishing process begins. Knocking down the raised grain is very easy to do by hand. Rent the machine for a day or two, do all the sanding you need to do, then return it. Easier and cheaper that way. My parents' floors came out great and are nice and clear with no ambering in the two years since I refinished them. Hope this helps. -BK
Edited 12/21/2008 2:37 pm ET by bk24