My current project is a small apartment building gutted & renovated. It was built 1920 and balloon framed, good structurally. My experience is solely with platform construction, and I need to do some what would be minor changes for me on a platform framed house – move a couple windows, primarily. Building is 2 story with a hip roof. If it were platform framed I would cut out 1-2 joists for my new window, header it in, put my kings, jacks, and cripples in, and move on. I wouldn’t worry about the temporary structural load being distributed out from the cut studs while I framed it. If there was a floor joist bearing on the top plate at that spot, I would brace it off before starting.
But balloon has a whole lot more load being transferred directly down to the spot I want to make changes to – particularly the weight of the roof through the hips. I am going to reroof and can reduce the weight by stripping shingles off before doing this. I can also brace up floor and ceiling joists bearing on the point I want to make chagnes at. I can’t easily brace the roof off at that point, but I suppose I could if it will make a difference.
Is the detail for headering a balloon-framed envelope penetration the same as for a platform framed building? I have a number of penetrations to install as I am retrofitting it also for through-the-wall ac units.
thanks in advance,
remodeler
Replies
For the kind of work you are describing I don't think that the procedure is any different than platform.
You need to temp. support the loads above then header in your new support. Where you will run into problems though is finding support at floor level to place your jacks on.
I've cut off the studs at the top of the floor joist and run the jacks down to a double 2x spanning the floor joists.
I'm sure there are other ways and a least as many variables.
Eric
Edited 3/28/2004 11:04 am ET by firebird
Eric,
If I am reading you correctly, you are cutting the existing studs off at floor level and capping them with a doubled 2x4 like having a doubled bottom plate. This seems similar to how I use the doubled 2x6s only a lot simpler. I've been hesitant as far as the load carrying capability of doubled 2x4s on the flat. I know this is the typical arrangement in platform framing where a double top plate picks up the load from any joists not lined up directly over a stud below so obviously it can carry a load between wall studs. I would only be concerned about point loads I am not aware of. Have you ever found the need for anything beefier. It seems your method would be easier than mine which is why I am asking.
Richie
"I've been hesitant as far as the load carrying capability of doubled 2x4s on the flat. I know this is the typical arrangement in platform framing where a double top plate picks up the load from any joists not lined up directly over a stud below so obviously it can carry a load between wall studs. I would only be concerned about point loads I am not aware of. Have you ever found the need for anything beefier. It seems your method would be easier than mine which is why I am asking."
I may not be understanding your situation, but when placing a header in a balloon frame situation, I do not feel that doubled 2x4s or 2x6s on FLAT is going to be substantial enough in most cases. Perhaps if cutting out just one stud. What you want is a doubled 2x on edge of the appropriate depth for the span.
I stink at conveying a design in words. That said, I am not laying ANY bearing headers on the flat EVER. I was referring to a post where the existing wall studs were cut at the floor line and a doubled 2x4 was set in on the flat to act as a bottom plate where the jacks could bear. The header above would be normally sized. You mention that your jacks land on the sill. If you have a way of fishing jacks down 2 stories to the sill when working on the second or third floor of a balloon framed house please let me know. Otherwise I have always inserted framing low in the wall to rest the new jacks on which would then transfer the load to the existing framing below.
Richie
"You mention that your jacks land on the sill. If you have a way of fishing jacks down 2 stories to the sill when working on the second or third floor of a balloon framed house please let me know. Otherwise I have always inserted framing low in the wall to rest the new jacks on which would then transfer the load to the existing framing below."
Oh, I get it now. My mind was on the 1st floor. On upper floors, there is generally a rim joist to bear on. The rim joist is typically notched right into the balloon studs, in the structures I have seen. The floor joists generally rest on the rim joist, if they are running that way. Absent a rim joist, your double plate would help, though I wonder how much load really gets transferred to the center (cut) studs in this case.
I am currently working on a 3 story balloon framed house...
My observations:
The bottom plate will not have anything to sit on if the joists are running parallel to the wall where the window is being framed. This bottom plate would only serve as fire blocking and offer very little support to the jacks that are secured to the kingstuds.
Every window I can remember that was originally framed in a balloon framed house has had a 2x4 on the flat as the header without any jack studs and a cripple carrying the load of the rim joist to the window header. Never has this header been bowed or cracked, reflecting a significant load transfer. So I would assume, while it is good practice to frame these windows using platform framing techniques, no load that could not be handled by a 2x4 on the flat is ever transferred.
"The bottom plate will not have anything to sit on if the joists are running parallel to the wall where the window is being framed. This bottom plate would only serve as fire blocking and offer very little support to the jacks that are secured to the kingstuds."
Must depend upon local practice. It is very common around here for balloon frame structures to have a rim joist on all walls, whether supporting joists or not. Really just supporting the edge of the floor, in this case. Of course, if the joists are running parallel to your wall, there is probably much less load bearing on your opening.
The bottom plate will not have anything to sit on if the joists are running parallel to the wall where the window is being framed.
If the floor joists are parrallel to the subject wall, then said wall is NOT likely to be a bearing wall at all.
Much kinder animal that one.
Eric
Somewhere prior to this post but after my initial responce to you, some one mentioned using EXISTING STUDS as King studs and installing jack stud down to the sill plate, floor joists, or floor joist ledgers. That would be the right (est) way yet.
Whatever loads you are picking up, you should have enough knowledge to determine if your method is sufficient. If not then hire an engineer.
Eric
Eric,
I was referring to possible unseen load paths. For instance if we are working on a balloon framed home on the second of three stories, I can't often have no access to any framing on the above floor(s). I can guess and granted more times than not there are no odd framing situations above but I am one of those who likes to be "on the safe side" and plan for the worst. I liked your method of cutting the existing studs at the floor line and inserting a doubled 2x on the flat as a bottom plate allowing you to frame your openings as if the wall were platform framed. I was inquiring as to whether you felt a doubled 2x on the flat spanning most often 16in. would effectively transfer ANY load that may be landing on it. I have heard your method from others and feel it would be a lot easier than what I am accustomed to.
Richie
I was referring to possible unseen load paths.
You need to figure out what your doing and what loads are where. You need to walk aroound the house, under the house and over it and determine if you can, what is what and where the loads are.
Otherwise get an engineer. As I stated in my last post about the suggestion of jack studs bearing on the tops of the joists, sill or ledger. Are you familiar with these terms and the location of these componets in your dwelling? If not, then you shouldn't even be thinking about doing what you are about to attempt.
I didn't even know that you were working on a three story balloon framed structure until your most recent post. That alone is enough reason to be VERY careful.
What I suggested has been done, that is all I can say. Wether or not it was correct or applicable in your situation I can not say.
Eric
where are you?
Eric,
I'm in NY. I am not doing this job. I was just responding to replies to the original post. I have used the method I've mentioned before without a problem but thought your method seemed easier and was looking for further detail so that I might apply it in the future. And yes, I am very familiar with the terms joist, sill and ledger. On one job I did, we reframed opening on the second floor of a 2 1/2 story balloon framed gable wall. The new jacks could not be placed to reach the sill and there wer no joists nor a ledger (the joists were parallel to the gable wall). We used the method I said before. At the sill height we cut out the existing studs (including the ones we were going to use as our "king" studs. We wedged a double 2x6(oriented vertically like a header) into the space tightly between the uncut studs. The doubled 2x6 was toed into the wall studs at either end and the existing studs that would remain were toed into the 2x6s. We then set the new header and ran the jacks down onto the top of the 2x6s. The sheathing was nailed off to everything and we cut the opening in the sheathing and set the windows. After reading your post it seemed it would be easier to cut the studs at the floor line and insert the doubled 2x4 at the bottom rather than the doubled 2x6.
Richie
I lost track of who started the thread......I thought you were doing the work. Your method is identical to mine and others..header above and below.
Cheers
Eric
I use a temp jack and short beam nbet under the floor joists back just enough to be out of the way for working, and attach a 2x12 temp header to the wall above the new window using lag screws and spanning a couple studs either side of the new window cut out. depending on the situation, you probably need to to double the king studs ( you did mean studs and not joists right?) and add fire stop blocking while it is all openned up.
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Thanks for the input. The temp header is an idea I'll follow, Piffin. thanks.
remodeler
did lot of window modifications to balloon frames, important to remember old ledgers and fasteners are critical on balloon, so don't want to stress them .... better to reinforce structure as part of the remodel.... couple of tricks... can't place a new king stud in multi-story as single stick due to long length & obstruction of upper floor deck(s)..... create new king studs with jacks & mini-header system..... mark new window rough opening on sheathing inside of house..... go to next full stud cavities outboard of both sides of r.o. .... in each cavity, cut stud to longest length you can slide up into that bay, going past second floor deck if possible, and lower onto sill board on foundation or exposed floor joist for best support.... fasten to existing stud... slide in another stick of same length, support at same height and fasten to opposing existing stud .... lock up these new jacks with fireblocking near top and bottom.... go to second floor where jacks are near deck height and apply header on top of them ..... install two jacks from header to second floor plates, compression fit, fasten and lock w/fireblock. (if there's another floor, repeat the jacks with header system through successive floor decks)... jacks can be notched to accomodate ledger boards.... notch may have to be longer to allow installation of jack, fill notch in w/ block ... this is stronger than cutting old ledger.... i use a dremel w/ fiber mesh cutting wheel to clear fasteners coming through sheathing into cavity ...need to do this to fit jacks in on angle and flush them up to sheathing .... now brace in the basement and on each floor up to where new window is going ....easy to brace with 2x6 or 8 on floor and ceiling w/ several studs fitted between as temp jacks....... cut existing studs in r.o. to cripple height ... clear fasteners in way and install beefy header w/ double jacks ea. side... apply sill boards to cripples .... install 2x from sillboard to header to establish width of r.o. ... install jacks on top of both ends of new header up to top floor and compression fit against plates supporting rafters.... cut sheathing from r.o. w/ sawzall ... install window..... good idea to shoot rinkshanks through sheathing into new framing ...inside, pad out new framing to same depth of old studs which are probably native cut lumber so sheetrock will be flat....... your building is gutted so not a bad idea to add joist or two under bath tubs, toilets and weak spots in floor, support them both ends w/ new studs and blocking in walls..... now it's miller time
Done plenty of these. Just did similar project last weekend. Not the easiest subject ot get info on out of construction manuals.
If you have the head room (most balloon houses have high ceilings), run a temporary ledger board of appropriate depth (depending upon span) up against ceiling or bare joists (as the case may be). This supports and shares some of the load with the rim joist, which is generally notched into the balloon studs.
Lag ledger board into studs you intend to cut (I generally use 3/8 lags, 2 per stud) as well as studs that will become king studs. For a larger span or heavier situation, you could extend ledger to next set of studs on either end for extra support. Ledger should be dead level so that you can use it for reference later.
Screw on a straight edge, and cut studs as deep as you can with a circular saw. finish cut with recip saw. I find this gives straigher cuts than using a recip saw for the whole cut.
Place permanent header and prop it up. You may need to jack it up slightly to take out any sagging if the temporary ledger deflected or settled a bit. Install jack studs on each end, and tack everything into place. Double jack studs for bigger loads.
Best of luck.
I've done it exactly the way you do but was curious, where do you terminate your new jacks? I've cut the studs off low on the wall up to and including the existing studs which are becoming the new king studs. Then I fit a doubled 2x6 vertically between the existing studs which remain uncut (one stud to the left and right of my new king studs). The 2x6 get toe nailed at either and the studs which were cut but are remaining get toenailed into the 2x6s. Now the new jacks under the new header land on the 2x6. Sometimes I put the doubled 2x6 at the height I need for the rough sill to avoid extra framing.
Richie
"I've done it exactly the way you do but was curious, where do you terminate your new jacks? I've cut the studs off low on the wall up to and including the existing studs which are becoming the new king studs. Then I fit a doubled 2x6 vertically between the existing studs which remain uncut (one stud to the left and right of my new king studs). The 2x6 get toe nailed at either and the studs which were cut but are remaining get toenailed into the 2x6s. Now the new jacks under the new header land on the 2x6. Sometimes I put the doubled 2x6 at the height I need for the rough sill to avoid extra framing."
I'm not sure I understand your question.
The existing studs beyond the span become the king studs. The jack studs are sistered onto the king stud to support the end of the header. The jack studs run all the way to the sill. Can't find a picture of a balloon wall, but here is a platform one.
View Image
On the middle floor of a three story building I had the same problem . What I did was basically put a header above AND below the new opening. that way the loads are transfered back to where they were in the first place.
...................Rik..............
That is what I was trying to describe.
Richie