My DW owns and rents a commercial building. The renter called last week for some minor maintenance…..since I’m on the service contract (marriage) to do such things, I go to the store front.
While there the renter shows me some 9X9 floor tiles that are coming loose, cracked, and in general need replacing. Although many are loose and others are still stuck tightly by the black cut-back adhesive.
I know a torch will help…but there will be some that are stubborn and may require a chisel or scraper.
And the renter and I know that old 1950’s tiles contain asbestos.
Unbroken they present no threat….but how do I safely remove the few tiles that are tenaciously glued to the concrete?
……………Iron Helix
Replies
Heat gun.
I have great success with one. I use an old 6" drywall knife to slide under them and lift them from the glue. No chipping or chiseling to create friable particals that way. Double bag the stuff and ask you local waste management how to dispose of it.
Wear a good quality dust mask as you work, just in case, and be sure knowone else is in the store at the time. Caution and patients are the key to not breaking the tiles up and getting friable particals in the air.
Dave
And if your gonna take that kinda of "risk", it would be a good idea to keep
everything wet
Napalm is the only way dude.
Call in an air strike.
From a safe distance!!!
Mr T
I can't afford to be affordable anymore
heat creates the kind of uplifting air currents to bring any fine particles up into the faced of the workers.
And I would not want to be the one fiorcing a scraper in to that gummy gumbo!
Find dry ice to slide around on it instead, making the stuff brittle enough to pop up. Use a fine mister spray to settle dust.
Wear an N-100 respirtator and change clothes before comning home.
use an air excahnge cleaner with extra filter to catch particles.
Don't worry too much - it takes a liftime of working with it and smokuing cigs at same time to cause trouble for most people.
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Piffin: Thanks for the last line about taking a lifetime! We are paranoid about one time exposures to these materials. For a simple job removing a few tiles, simple precautions are adequate. It is the pro's who get daily exposure who need the fancy, high level protection.
Back when I was a 5 yr old, my grandfather lived in a house w/ a coal-fired furnace for hot water heat. All the pipes and the furnace were asbestos coated. I remember poking my fingers in the asbestos and watching the fibriles float away. Lessee, now - that was over 60 yrs ago. I should be dead from mesothelioma now, right!!!???
DonThe GlassMasterworks - If it scratches, I etch it!
Right. I don't know how it happens but once the govt or somebody labels a substance dangerous, the general public suddenly begins to treat it as though it is ricin gass and one touch will do you in, make you babies be born naked, and empty your bank accounts all in one fell swoop.
And on the other side, once a substance is pronounced safe, like say, Viagra, the masses will knock you down in their attempt to knock someone up.
In neither case do many folks make any slight attempt to discover any facts or background information top qualify what they are told. Whatever happened to analytical thinking?
At least we still have breaktime for iron helix
;)
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I live in Pittsburgh ...
used to be a bit of a steel town they tell me.
started remodeling with my Dad when I was 8 years old ...
don't worry ..... it was a part time gig.
he has a friend that owned a coupla rowhouse rentals ...
right down the street from one of the steel mills ...
they were about 100 years old before we got to them ....
and one of my first jobs was demo and clean up.
I used to tear down an old plaster ceiling ... with 100 years of fine steel mill soot ...
come home covered ... all black clothes ... black snot when ya blew yer nose ...
god knows what was in all that I breathed in ...
at 12 I probably had the lungs of a 40 year old coal miner ...
and the Dr always tells me I have heathy lungs?
Dad's in his mid 70's now ... overweight.. etc.
Him .. healthy lungs too ...
it's Mom ... who never went much into the sun .... that's got skin cancer!
Dad ... worked outside all year round ... started every beach vacation with a good lobster burn on the first day ... then "cooked it in" for the rest of the week ...
Breathing all those fumes working along freight trains by day on the railroad and remodeling steel mill housing by nite ... and he's cancer free.
Cut him and he probably bleeds asbestos ... but no related health problems.
I think I'm immune ... after all ... I was innoculated on the job site way back when.
JeffBuck Construction, llc Pittsburgh,PA
Artistry in Carpentry
Thanks for all the considerations, BUT
I have to drop the other shoe........
DW says I should have mentioned that the renter is a federal agency!
Does this mean that we take off our "common sense" hat and put on a "CYA" hat?
The agency supervisor will not let me work after normal hours and insists on being present for security (?)reasons. I wonder what it would take to get a security clearance?
Secondly, I think this person is overly afraid of the tile situation...now has suggested ventilation enclosures, hazcom suits, and on site showers as a possibilty to keep the asbestos out of the environment. Won't even touch a tile that is already lying loose on the floor!
I would do this job with N-100 mask, and the dry ice (if I can find it locally) as has been suggested by the BT crew. Probably reserving the heat application if any tiles were still stubborn. Afterhours would really be best......without the supervisor perched on my shoulder.
The new 1/8"vinyl tiles would be set in a below grade/on grade latex based glue directly over the black cut back adhesive. No supplier (locally) seems to know if that would be a problem. Any thoughts?
I talked to a local custodian that does this type of thing by placing water soaked 1/2 sheet newspaper over the tile to be "popped up" and slides a sharp flat bar under the paper and smacks it with a hammer. Then he rolls the tile into the wet newspaper and tucks it into a plastic bag. He uses a torch on the stubborn ones!After that he makes sure the floor surface is smooth for the flooring people.
My father often spoke of his experiences on board a destroyer in the Pacific during WWII when they were bombarding with the large turret guns and how the asbestos powder litterally "snowed" all over everthing. Although he died from a lung disease (IPF) the tissue biopsies showed no asbestos crystals present.
So you have to wonder about the "scare of asbestos" and what really is an appropriate action or reaction to its presence.
........................Iron Helix
With a paranoid govt supre breathing down your neck - while you work no less - RUN for the hills! Try Ruby Ridge.
just joking....
sort of
OK, the right answer is to tell this fool that he has to allow you access properly to facilitate...
But he obviously alread knows better than you about anything...and he can possibly make your life miserable inspite of the fact that it is govt regs that are creating this catch 22
Here's my compromise suggestion -
Encapsulation is an a govt approved solution for asbestos treatment.
so research into epoxies. Call the teck folks at Abatron and others to discuss this. I know of a motel where they got an epoxy treatment on the floors t6hat went right over the tiles - this was about twenty years ago. it looked pretty good, had colour chips embedded in the epoxy.
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I'm supposed to meet monday with the agent.....
There is also a "deep concern" about "all those loose keys that maybe out there". And therefore we are talking about new locksets/masters & submasters etc. I've got this one covered, but it as a continuation of the "paranoid attitude" that doesn't belong in a rural town of 1100 people.
Thanks for all the ammunition/choices, at least I'm going in with some options for consideration.
I'll keep you posted...................Iron Helix
Sounds like you have as many 'political' problems as you do property problems. Good luck.
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Had the meeting yeasterday.....not too bad.
I asked the supervisor to contact the regional bigwig and see if I could get a security clearance to work inside without supervision!
The tile is still a concern.....and as I measured for Sq FT of replacement, I tapped out the loose tile areas and found that over half of the 1600 SF area is loose.
The idea of heat or supercold to remove tiles was okay, but the super still wanted the area vacated during the work.....hence the catch-22.....which could be solved with a security clearance. Stubborn tiles will be worked in a wet environment.
The supervisor is amenable to carpet.....but still needs a tight substrate for glue down. So the tile problem still exists. Tile replacement tile would be less expensive for the DW's checkbook.
As far as the update on the locksets for better "security", the agency will put in a voucher for the locks if I install....which takes a load off the wallet.
As with all other government sequences....lots of time waiting for the wheels to SLOWLY grind.
...................Iron Helix
I've been examining this problem at church where we have a basement covered in tile that contain asbestos. In our case, the adhesive also contains asbestos -- you may or may not have this additional problem. I've not found a good method described for removing adhesive. (Course, since I'm in Wisconsin, it's academic anyway since the state requires that properly trained and licensed asbestos abatement contractors remove floor tile. Most states don't have this requirement.)
Also remember to look into the disposal requirements for the tile and adhesive.
The articles I've found on the subject recommend the dry ice method but also mention that flooding the floor with water will also loosen the tile (given that this is why our tile was popping loose, I believe it works).
Found a latex based floor tile adhesive at one of the big boxes that has a specific listing for using directly over cut-back adhesive.......
Hence I not have to mess with the removal of the black gooooo!
good luck with your project.................Iron Helix
"deep concern" about "all those loose keys that maybe out there". And therefore we are talking about new locksets/masters
That one, at least, is generally covered under existing practice. The tennant (generally) is allowed to rekey to their heart's content, as long as the owner gets a key as needed for "owner's duties" under the lease. And (usually) the owner gets to charge for the rekeying--after the tennant leaves, and the tennant pays for "their" new keys (so the tenant "pays" twice).Occupational hazard of my occupation not being around (sorry Bubba)
simple removal - lots of water
let it soak
I think your answer has to be that tenents are not allowed in a facility while such remediation is going on. They must secure the facility and turn it over to you for the duration. I've been in Gummint owned bldgs when it happened & everyone not involved was excluded from the site.
DonThe GlassMasterworks - If it scratches, I etch it!
The problem here is not with your one time exposure, although that is not the best thing for you. The problem is with the asbestos fibers that get left behind. This turns into long term (potential) exposure for the tenants.
The correct methods for removing asbestos are designed to reduce/eliminate the contamination of the site. The same methodology is used for removing waste products that contain radioactive contamination. Some of the extreme steps they require may not make sense in a particular situation, however, there is fairly low tolerance for errors in this situation.
If the government owned the building I would make them pay for the whole lot. do it all out. Since DW owns the building, you need a more economical solution.
You can encapsulate with whatever resin you have available, and then put a raised subfloor on whatever framing lumber will work (I am a chemist, not a carpenter). You could put down plywood on that. Voila. Carpet over and forget about it.
Last year I didn't know what any of this stuff meant.
Most interesting.....................tell me more about the prescribed abatement SOP for floor tile?........if you have that knowledge or resource at hand.
Most of the tile that has popped off the current ground level concrete floor is due to water infiltration from an assortment of plumbing leaks that were not reported in a timely fashionover the last 50 years.
Most of the areas that I want to re-tile are quite loose with the exception of the few stubborn ones.
Is picking up the loose tiles and bagging them for disposal... "okay" or is there need of the stricker abatement rigor?
................Iron Helix
PS....in a past life (1972), I taught high school chem & physics. Still remenber some of it!
I am a chemist and I have had some exposure in the field of occupational health and safety. I am an amateur carpenter (at least I like to pretent), and am not a toxic waste remover. I just wanted to clarify my knowledge and make sure no one thinks I am an expert on something I am not.
I ran across asbestos personally about five years ago when I almost bought a house with asbestos insulation wrapped around the water pipes. This is fine as long as it is not disturbed. If it needs to be disturbed to repair a pipe; then it should probably be removed. I got a quote to have it removed and asked a log of questions to the contractor who specialized in this job (this was about $5000 canadian to remove asbestos from about 25' of pipe - take 70% of that for US$).
This is what I was told. They would seal the basement off from the rest of the house with plastic and tape (the common insulation products I believe) and enter and exit the basement only through the windows. The idea is to contain the fibers that will be released when the product is disturbed. They would wet down the area with mist and remove, bag, and specially dispose of all fibers. Everyone working in the area is masked and wears special clothing that is removed and specially treated (laundered or disposed of depending on what you have) at the end of each day. I didn't buy that house. Too much cost to repair a leaky pipe.
Here is a link to a website from the government of Nova Scotia (a province in Canada) which gives its regulations for the workers who remove asbestos. (which was your question)
http://www.gov.ns.ca/enla/ohs/Asbest01.htm
That is why the preferred method of treatment is encapsulation. The least dangerous asbestos products would be the cementatious ones (like tiles...) that are essentially asbestos mixed with something else. They do not release fibers easily compared to the dry stuff (link insulation). You should probably check the regulations in your area to make sure you don't unintentionally break a law.
Here is a link to the EPA's website on the issue
http://www.epa.gov/asbestos/
Based upon what I know and what has been said about this I would do the following. I would carefully remove and dispose of loose broken pieces of tile providing there is only a little bit of loose tile - you won't keel over dead. Use the same sorts of precautions recommended for handling fiberglass insulation but follow them really carefully. Then seal any broken edges with something. Someone recommended an epoxy resin - probably would work. Put a subfloor over it, carpet, and try to forget about it.
Good luckLast year I didn't know what any of this stuff meant.
Thanks for the links...I spent a bit of time there...too much!!!
I am due back at the building today to talk to the agent.
The suggestion about adding plywood and carpet may be the most feasible, provided it is acceptable to the tenants and feasible for the buildings use and configuration.
A single layer of 5/8 ply would have to be screwed to the concrete.....but that means drilling through the tiles......that's worse than removing the tiles interms of dust production.
After that the plywood coverup generates some elevation...say a minimum of 1-1/2" to 4+, which creates door problems, trip hazards, and street elevation access discrepencies.
Could remove all the agencies stuff, half at a time, and pour two inches of small aggregate concrete and taper to the exits/door.
Then again the epoxy solution must be reconsidered.
Sure wish it was someone elses building.................Iron Helix
Ooops...had a cancel/no show...it will be next week now!
...............Iron Helix
I'm glad it is not my building either.
I am not a lawyer (and I live in a different country), however...
It seems to me that the tenant has very little say in the matter. If your building/EPA regulations say protect it and cover it up and you follow the regulations then you are doing your duty as far as your contract (lease) goes.
In this case the inertia and red tape of the government works in your favour. The local people in the office may have nothing to do with even deciding whether to renew the lease or not.
Just my two cents worth.
You do need to get your legal issues cleared up. You may be able to take care of this by 1. talking to your lawyer 2. talking with someone from the regulatory body in question
Since you are a professional it may just be a matter of documenting the issue, your work, and having a special EPA? inspector in to look at it. In that way, it may be similar to regular building work with a municipal permit. I hope this works out for you. It would be much simpler if they owned the building.
Good luck with the legal aspects of this. All I have here is common sense; sometimes the law has nothing to do with that.
What I do feel comfortable advising on is that regulatory bodies in Canada and the US all strongly feel that removing asbestos should be a last resort special case. You should have no problem finding authoritative information to settle down the tenant's fears.
Now, my two cents worth on the building part - even though I am an amateur. If you cover it up you are stuck with a slight height different. I don't really know what the safety/legal/building consequences of this are. However, couldn't you pour self leveling concrete over the whole floor area. That could be fairly thin on top of the tile that is already there. You may be able to use that as a subfloor all by itself. If not, I heard of a product from some tiling contractors. I am told that I need a 1" plywood subfloor to put down ceramic tile but that most tile contractors in the area won't go near it with less than 1 1/4". Fine. I can accept good advice. There is a subfloor product available (that I forget the name of) that will accomplish these requirements and is only 1/8" thick. Welcome to the world of modern composite materials. I have no idea how much this costs but a tile specialist would know. If you cannot find it please ask me and I will call the store I talked to.
As far as fastening down a subfloor (if the concrete won't work by itself. You could just use construction adhesive??? (if it were me I would ask a few people first, but you probably know whether that is stupid or not up front) I guess you know better than me whether you can get away with no screws or not.
I am sure that the only value my building advice has is that occasionally not having a box to put my ideas into makes me creative. I always check my creative ideas with professionals since I like my work to stay up and not mess up my house. However, what I said about removal vs. encapsulation/protection is good advice. This is the preferred method everywhere.
Good luck.Last year I didn't know what any of this stuff meant.
Edited 9/30/2004 9:03 am ET by DgH
The meeting on Monday at the local agency revealed that there was a report on file concerning the presence of the asbestos tile. This report had been generated by an invistigating crew that was to document all asbestos hazards in the the offices used by the agency.
The local supervisor has concerns, the district supervisor knows not waht to do. So now we are moving up to the next rung in the ladder of the bureacracy.
I am basically asking for the method of removal that the agency will approve and how will they particpate in the expense of removal.
I have advised my lawyer of the situation and we are in the "wait and see mode" as we watch this thing unfold.
The district supervisor okayed the overtime for a lower ranking agency emplyee to sit and monitor any afterhours work that might be needed.
I've pulled from the US DEP some PDF notes on the SOP of removing 9x9 tiles.
If they come out whole or in less than five pieces....not powdered or crushed or chipped out they may be worked wet, double bagged and disposed of in a landfill that accepts asbestos waste. Proper paperwork required.
In public buildings, anything after that requires a licensed abatement with all the attached sequences, precautions and EXPENSES $$$$$.
This may take a while to accomplish..............meanwhile the workers in the office consider the tiles a trip hazard and as one comes loose it disappears into the daily trashbag of office waste.
I also found out that the cut back adhesive is more asbestos ladened than the the tile. It's removal would be another problem if it were not for the currently available tile adhesuive that will work over the black cutback.
Looks as if I should go shopping for a new pair of knee pads.
No matter how this goes down....it looks like I'll be bent over!
...............Iron Helix
I was called by the local agent. I went to the office and there was this 3"ring binder full of "SOP" which I was free to read, but could not take from the building.
It rated the asbestos hazards in the building...floor tile and adhesive, cove base and adhesive, and caulking.....all below a #3 hazard level on a scale of 7. Maybe the roofing...listed not confirmed/tested, but none the less a liability.
The three hazard items for the office were evaluated in 2000 as in "Good Condition", but that has obviously has changed with the water leak.
The other SOP items mandate reports/permits for the removal and disposal of said items as per Federal and State laws/rules. Which will probably translate to "a licensed abatement professional when there is a reply to that question. That means big $$$$, cause I will not be allowed to do it!
That begs the next question that has not been answered... Who bears the cost of abatement? That one is still unanswered.
More to follow....................Iron Helix
probably cheaper to let them break the lease.
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Or maybe I should void the lease!
At least the local office agent pointed out exactly the situation you pointed out.
My question to the agent was...Where do you want him to sit and watch me while I pop these puppies off the floor? Got a smile from it, too!.....a little common sense on the local level at least.
The office must be open from 6 am till 6 pm for employees, 8:30-4:30 to the public for 5-1/2 days/week. That leaves nights and 1/2 a weekend.
Set up camp each evening after six with the vulture on my shoulder, work a few hours, fold up the plastic tents, HEPA vac the whole area, double bag and remove all, put the vulture back in his cage and go home to take a shower.
Great work conditions, short hours, wonderful working companions!
More as it happens....scheduled to go to the bureaucratic library at the first of the week.
.....................Iron Helix
I can remember hours like that one winter when I had a lot of restaurant work
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Back today to read some more in the SOP book.
Floor tile removal SOP is clearly spell out....when you find those three pages in amongst the 3-400 pages.
The tile removal requires a Class II Asbestos Abatement License ( minimum 5-day training course)
Agency must issue a "Work Authorization" in order to do the work.
Agency requires formal notification prior to start of removal.
State of Illinois requires formal notification.
The licensed contractor must keep a "Waste Tracking" log, which includes the name of the asbestos approved dump site. Number of bags collected must match the records of the dump site as to the number of bags buried.
The process listed includes mini-enclosures, negative pressure masks, HEPA vacuums, disposable worksuits, 6 mil double bags, amended water sprays, encapsulating solutions, dusting and sampling.
The local agent suggested that we submit a request for the agency to absorb the financial burden of removal. Meantime I'm going out for abatement quotes, anyway.
At least I can lay the new tiles........maybe!?
The agency did voucher for three new commercial locksets, rekeying, and an interior door replacement to augment their security for the building. I am to install.
Here We Go!..............Iron Helix
Update!
Here it is .... November 18. and a month has passed since officially writing the USPS about how they wished to handle the 9x9 asbestos tile problem and who was really financially responsible.
Still, no answer.
I've completed all the other work........but the biggy sits, waiting.
More as it happens.......................Iron Helix
thanks for the update
Almost seven month later and the official reply comes!
One of the agencies maintenance man happened through on a routine checklist visit and noted the numerous missing tiles from the floor.
He wrote it up and the request went to the head of the maintenance office who filed for an asbestos abatement program to be put in place.
After some internal debate on up the agencies ladder of bureacracy it was determined that from a past class action suit of owners against the agency the result was that the government specs were for the use of the asbestos tile and therefore the problem belonged to the agency.
Thank goodness for us because the estimated floor tile abatement and replacement is close to $50k.
Thanks again for everyones input............Iron Helix
WHEW!
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I was just thinking that another ironic oart of this scenario is that the agent head wants it removed because it might be a health hazard to his people, but can get overtime pay for one of his people to sit and be exposed to the removal process where that employee will be more in danger during those several hours than in alifetime of working over it. LOL
Love the conundrums of bearucrats!
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As we work on this project we find out more and more...
DW and I have read & discussed these postings and have dredged up some more data on the building.
DW's father(Melvin), in the early 1960's constructed seven offices in seven local rural communites as per agency specs and then leased those buildings to that government agency for its use.
Any lawyers on this forum?
If the building was constructed as per agency specs (1960's)then would not the government agency be responsible for the floor tile removal, since they specified the now hazardous floor covering?
Or at least some good IMHO's!!!
......................Iron Helix
After that e-mail you sent me I wouldn't be so sure about the immunity thing!!!
Hope your feeling better Boss Buck!!!
Mr T
I can't afford to be affordable anymore
>>Lessee, now - that was over 60 yrs ago. I should be dead from mesothelioma now, right!!!???
Not necessarily, but it is likely that you are at some degree of higher risk of having it.
Since there is a degree of risk, I'll bet the person who lost to those odds has a different outlook.
I'm not trying to exaggerate the risk, I suspect that casual exposure is very low risk, but we need to use statistics and odds properly.
I just flipped a penny and it came up heads. Odds of heads was 50-50.
Next time I flip it, it isn't guaranteed to come up tails.God never gives us small ideas.
Sojourners: Christians for Justice and Peace
Heat gun...
Life is not a journey to the grave with the intention of arriving safely in a pretty and well preserved body, but rather to skid in broadside, thoroughly used up, totally worn out, and loudly proclaiming
WOW!!! What a Ride!
DW? Seen this a lot. Still haven't figured it out.
Dish Washer? DryWall? Designated Woman?
Hmm?
At least for this conversation....."Dear Wife"!
It's all in the context of the conversation.....sometimes!
....................Iron Helix
Depemdiong on attitude at the moment, Dear Wife, Dumb wife, or Damned wife
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