Where do I start when I want to remove a load bearing wall?
I plan to do this right and get the legal permits. I wish to remove a wall between my kitchen and living room. In the basement below this wall, is a concrete foundation wall so I asume the wall I wish to remove must be load bearing. However there is no floor above the kitchen living room space.
My vision is to replace the wall with a beam and two pillars.
Is there a book or website I should look at first? One of the reasons I am thinking of doing the work myself is to learn more about construction.
Replies
ASENNAD,
To learn more about construction...especially how to identify a load bearing wall, and correctly remove such and then install new supports for such:
HIRE A COMPENTENT CONTRACTOR AND ASK IF HE WILL LET YOU WATCH!
Davo
ASENNAD,
I don't mean to sound harsh, but this is one area that a DIYer should not attempt!
Doing the wrong thing can jeopardize the entire structure causing the building to possibly collapse, and even worse..causing possible death to anyone inside at the time.
I cannot stress this enough...don't attempt something of this magnitude on your own.
Davo
Pay close attention to the last two comments. Hire an engineer at least.
I heartily concur with what others have said--not a good time to practice when a mistake could cost you your life. Learn about construction by watching a pro in this case and tackling something a little less dangerous for your learning--like putting in a partition wall, but not a load bearing wall.
How old is your house? Have you looked up in your attic to see if your roof is truss or rafters. Then get yourself a residential consultant who has done this to check out your situation and give you advice. Good luck
Don't listen to these other nay-sayers. If your IQ is reasonably high, you can do this first time correctly. It just takes some homework on your part. See there is this three dimensional curve that determines project success. The X-axis is experience (what most people here have), the Y-axis is drive and determination and the Z-axis is project success (project success = f(x,y)). The curve rises about the same up both the X-axis and Y-axis. So somebody with little experience can do a successful project on drive and determination alone (you just couldn't make money at it because you will exhaust uncountable hours on something simple), whereas somebody with lots of experience needs little drive or determination to get it done right. That is the definition of a professional. The really elite have experience+drive+determination (think professional athletete like MJ) and you nor I can compete with that.
At any rate, I did exactly what you want to do and it's not that hard. But you do need to do some homework.
An engineer, a good engineer, is worth the investment. You should come away with a drawing of the beam/post/footer detail, something you can file with your permits. Then you can decide if you want to go at it or not. A solid block wall will likely handle the point loads from roof load. The engineer will inspect the wall and hopefully the footing to sign off on it.
I put in a flush beam, meaning I cut a pocket in my ceiling joists and hung my ceiling joists using hangers. The beam was 3.5" x 14", one piece, called a glulam. It was a real monster and was grossly oversized for what it was doing.
If you dont' want a flush beam your life is much easier. Of course with a flush beam you then have to repair a 3.5" x 12-15' piece of drywal, which will almost never work.
Another interesting thing - I did this same work in MA and NC (on my own home). In MA, the inspector required an engineer to look over the installation because I had cut my ceiling joists which were my collar ties. The engineer recommended a continuous 3/4" ply be nailed to the bottom of the joists to span across the beam to tie the two sides together. Fortunatly my drywall ceiling was strapped so I had the height. In NC, the inspector didn't say a damn thing about me cutting my collar ties. So I installed a turnbuckle system in the attic to keep the house from falling apart. Again an engineer should cover this type of thing if the detail is required.
Don't touch anything until you get that engineering drawing.
MERC.
Good advice here. I would only add that what I typically do in installing flush beams is to remove a 48-1/4" band of drywall from the installation. Gives you plenty of room to install the beam from below and do all your fastening, and then all you have to do is install full sheets of wallboard for the length of the job. Much easier to finish than trying to piece in a little strip and make it disappear.
-Jonathan Ward
Yes, very good idea. That was basically what I did in MA, but when I tried it again in NC I decided to try to get away with less and didn't work out as well. Of course all that was torn out when I put a 2nd story on.
Also, to the original poster, you will need to build temporary stud walls to hold up the ceiling on each side of the existing temporary wall (back about 2' or so). Your floor joist can carry that load temporarily while you get the beam in, just don't do it while you have 6' of snow on the roof.
MERC.
Assenad,
Below is how I would build the temporary support structure.
View Image
First strip the finish of the bearing wall and temporarily fasten (wire?) the beam to the top of it. Build the Temp Walls with double Top Plate, studs 2'OC, Diagonal Braces 4' OC, attach the Joist ties, then set the beam on the Joist Ties next to a Temp Wall.
An alternative is to use Beam Support at the crossing of the Diagonal Braces and slide the Beam in after the Bearing Wall is removed. Otherwise, omit the Beam Support.
Use 4 @ 16d, Shiners, not Vinyl coated (Shiners are 3 1/4" long) at each diagonal Brace and Joist tie. Bend the points over across the grain to provide superior pullout resistance.
Since there is access above the Joists, you can implace strapping across Lapped Joists to maintain Collar Tie integrity. After removing the Bearing Wall, add the Scaffold Subs to support a working platform.
Over built for safety, but remember, Advice is worth what you pay for it. Use this advice at your own risk
SamT
I bet your friendly part-timer at the glowing HD on the hill will be able to offer you volumes of technical assistance. In addition, maybe you can get a recording of the inpirational commercial soundtrack to their commercials to play on a loop while you are slowly, or possibly suddenly, altering the structural integrity of your investment.
Seriously, there is a reason professionals are for hire. This is one of them.
Maybe you can install a varnished particle board saddle to fill in the plate area you expose?
Good Luck rg
And to the naysayers.........
Why is it that an ambitious safety and legally conscious individual is sent packing and assumed to be incompetent to DIY?
If FHB is confident enough to publish how-to's regarding just this subject, the least we could do is point him toward those articles and suggest additional reading, studying before tackling a job he just might be able to accomplish.
I agree with consulting an engineer for the sizing, which will also include fastenings and bearing specs, too.
ASENNAD - Read FHB article "Removing a Bearing Wall", by John Michael Davis, issue #152, January 2003. Also, "All about Headers", by Clayton Dekorne, issue #162, May 2004 and "Framing an Opening in a Bearing Wall", by Mike Guertin, issue #137, March 2001.
"Why is it that an ambitious safety and legally conscious individual is sent packing and assumed to be incompetent to DIY? "
Thanks for the help.
It is certainly possible to learn enough about structures to design and build the kind of modification you want. I've done it myself. But if you value your time at minimum wage, and the only goal is to remodel the house, it'll be more cost effective to hire an engineer to visit the site and do the design. Many building departments will require an engineer's wet stamp before they give you a permit.
On the other hand, if you want the learning experience in addition to the finished job, start by measuring and drawing the existing structure. Then read some books and design your solution. Make an office appointment with an engineer to have your work checked. If your AHJ requires a wet stamp, your engineer may be able to make some corrections and put things in shape for submission. That's the way we did it on my remodel. You'll learn a lot that way, but the only money you'll save is the cost of the engineer's travel time for a site visit.
Where is this? Perhaps somebody here can recommend a local engineer for you.
-- J.S.
I have to but in here John. I often find your advice well balanced, but there is something missing in this where you suggest doing smething to avoid a site visit by an engineer.
I do agree that the average DIY with skill and motivation can do the job and I even suspect that this wall mauy not even be a load bearing wall, obviating the advise of some earlier respondents to totally avoid the job and give it to a pro.
But - When I have a situation that calls for an engineer, he will do the work based on my drawings and info I provide to him onluy because i am a pro in the field, knowing what to look for. And on top of that, he qulaifies his recommendations with an openning line, " Based on information you have provided..." with other interspersed disclaimerslaying some liability back on me should his design recommendations fail.
The point being, that it takes a pro to know what to look for to apply to the engineering design andf to cover all possible loads and load paths - which is why an ebngineer or a highly qualified carpenter should visit thwe site to analise the conditions. I would normally say that a framing carp can size things uop, But over the years, I have seen way too many failures on the part of supposedly reputable framing contractors.
Welcome to the Taunton University of Knowledge FHB Campus at Breaktime. where ... Excellence is its own reward!
This brings up another question.
Does a contractor doing the work have to consult an engineer to get the permit? Or can he draw up a plan and submit it to the building department without using an engineer?
How much ( ball park figure ) would an engineer's work cost? This is a straight forward job in my opinion. How do you find an engineer?
The wall in question is a load bearing wall. The rafters above it run perpendicular and is is located in the center of the house so I would be very surprised if it was not load bearing.
Depends on how fussy your BI is. In some areas they demand an engineer before you can paint (well, not quite that bad), while in other areas they are quite a bit more liberal. (For you Bushies, note that that's a small "l".)
In general it should be possible to "over-design" the beam and associated supports sufficiently that precise computations aren't needed, and most BIs are good at doing "back-of-the-envelope" calculations to see if the design appears sufficient. In this case, lacking any oddball structure in the attic, the wall/beam supports only half the weight of the two ceilings, plus any presumed load in the attic (which will vary depending on the configuration of the attic and local codes). Unless the presumed load in the attic is high, this will likely not require a particularly large or heavy beam, and an engineer isn't likely to be required (except maybe for the paint).
For your own peace of mind, though, you should ask the contractor to explain to you what load calculations were used. If he can't explain them or just waves you off then be worried. The BI office might catch any error, but it isn't guaranteed.
> In some areas they demand an engineer before you can paint (well, not quite that bad), ....
On TV transmission towers you really do need to figure the weight of a coat of paint. On a structure that's 2049 ft. high by 15 ft. on a side, the paint can be a significant load.
-- J.S.
I'd expect about 3hours of work including a site vist to look at the stucture. So at $100/hr, that would be $300.
You can sometimes find engineers at your town hall. Sometimes they moonlight on the side doing this kind of thing. Some towns don't like it, others do. When I did my beam in MA, I called the town next to mine and found an engineer.
If you can get an engineer who works for your town, it will be sure that the permit process will go smoothly, at least as far as the engineering specs are concerned.
MERC
> Does a contractor doing the work have to consult an engineer to get the permit? Or can he draw up a plan and submit it to the building department without using an engineer?
It varies from place to place, and depending on how big the job is. Here in LA, you need an engineer's wet stamp for structural work.
> How much ( ball park figure ) would an engineer's work cost?
Figure two to four hours, at maybe $100 - $200 per hour depending where you are.
> How do you find an engineer?
Let us know where you live, maybe somebody here can recommend a local engineer. If not, look for local colleges that teach engineering. Ask some of their faculty if they do side jobs. My engineer also teaches, which is the ideal combination if you want not just the engineering work done, but also to learn something about it.
-- J.S.
What is required locally varies as much as the colour of the sky from one end of the calender to the other.
I work and have worked most of my life where no structural imspections are extant. I do my own and w2hen I know I am in over my head, I call on an engineer. I have a good guy who I have used after meeting when an archy brought him in on a job. We understand each other so I stick with him. Normal bill for a single structural componenet lioke this is about $250-300 without a site visit. A site visit to the island here would defintiely add a couple bills.
I know of two other structural engineers in the area who are associated with surveyors offices.
In CO, I knew one who had his own ofice in town advertised and listed under engineering and design.
Welcome to the Taunton University of Knowledge FHB Campus at Breaktime. where ... Excellence is its own reward!
For the project I showed the pictures of, it was in the country and no permit of any kind was required. But I used licensed plumbers and electricians, and got an engineer to design the beam ... I sleep better at night that way.
The glulam beam was approc 3" x 18" x 24 ft clear span. It supports a concrete tile roof. The engineer made two visits and charged $750, which I thought was a little high. He lives across the highway, about a mile away, and made both visits on the way to the office, so that's why I thought it was high. I asked a friend who is an architect (oh! dare I say that?) and he recommended this guy.
Whenever you are asked if you can do a job, tell'em "Certainly, I can!" Then get busy and find out how to do it. T. Roosevelt
I hope I didn't imply that there's some huge savings to be had by going to the engineer's office instead of having him/her come out to the site. In my case, my engineer was confident enough in my drawings, but all it saved was his time for a seven mile round trip -- that savings is no big deal is what I was getting at. Certainly nothing compared to the effort it takes to learn enough to measure and draw the structure adequately.
My main suggestion to those who want to try doing this themselves is to start by measuring and drawing. It's pretty difficult to do much damage or hurt yourself doing that, and it gives you a little feel for whether you'd want to do more. You can then take the results of that work to an engineer for a reality check. It's up to your engineer to either work based on your drawings, or say "Gee, I'd better look at this in person." In the majority of cases, I'd expect the engineer to want to take a first hand look.
-- J.S.
Drawing and analysis is an excellent educational tol, even if it might be redundant when calling on an engineer. The thing to be careful of is expecting one to rely on a novices drawing and analysis of the situation at hand.
In this case, whether it is a structural wall depends primarily, IMO, on whether the roof is rtruss framed or stick framed.
Welcome to the Taunton University of Knowledge FHB Campus at Breaktime. where ... Excellence is its own reward!
Why is it that an ambitious safety and legally conscious individual is sent packing and assumed to be incompetent to DIY?
Because 99.99% of the time ...
they are!
maybe FHb remembered that it used to be a trade mag when it printed that article?
JeffBuck Construction, llc Pittsburgh,PA
Artistry in Carpentry
Given there's no floor above the wall, it's not necessarily load-bearing. The pier below may just be there to support the floor joists.
An inspection of the ceiling joists (usually from the attic) is required to determine "loadbearingness". It's not rocket science, but requires a little thought and understanding. The simplest case is if the ceiling joists run parallel to the wall and nothing else (eg, support for a false dormer) is resting on the wall. In such a case the wall is pretty definitely not load-bearing.
In any event, if it's a load-bearing wall, it probably isn't bearing much, and a relatively simple beam will probably handle it.
Get up in the attic and make some drawings and measurements, then post what you find here. If ceiling joists appear to be resting on the wall, measure the length of the joists from wall to each far end, along with size of the joists, how far they are spaced apart, and how wide the wall is you're removing. If the roof is constructed with trusses, a crude drawing of the truss would be a good idea.
With such measurements there are folks here who can give you at least a first cut at the size of beam (if any) you'll need to put in place of the wall.
Note that there are two options for placing the beam. One is to place it below the ceiling joists, so you have a visible beam in the area where the wall was removed. The other option is to set the beam into the ceiling and attach the joists to it with hangers. This second option is more difficult but give you an essentially flat ceiling.
Once you've got the beam sized and decided how it will be placed, you need to work out how it will be supported so that the beam load is properly transferred to the foundation. That's for another day.
Take your time, don't get in a rush, hire an engineer. You can do it. But you have to watch the details. Fer instance, I did a very similar project, and my engineer did all the calcs and spec'd the glulam and the bearing points, but specifically excluded himself from the temporary shoring and other items. He did include a visit to the house during renovation.
It will be a lot of hard work, and lots of sleepless nights ("will that shoring hold the roof tomorrow?") but the results are satisfying.
Before & after ...
Whenever you are asked if you can do a job, tell'em "Certainly, I can!" Then get busy and find out how to do it. T. Roosevelt
that looks nice, is that 2 dishwashers?
Wow, a compliment from an archy! I feel honored.
Yes, 2 dishwashers on the right, two ovens in the island, 5 burner gas cooktop, ice maker, wine cooler, large micro, glass front subzero fridge-only (freezer in the garage). And she doesn't cook. I kid you not. This is the ranch house, the main house is in the city, and they eat out, or carry-in, every meal. More than once I have gone to the city house to meet with her about something, meet about 930 or 10, and she asks if I want to meet at her favorite taco house for breakfast. She has no concept of time ... except when the project was runniong a little late.
Whenever you are asked if you can do a job, tell'em "Certainly, I can!" Then get busy and find out how to do it. T. Roosevelt
If you can afford a pro, hire one. If you can't, hire an engineer to analyze the structure for you and design a solution. Then you can implement it in safety.
Get yourself a good book. I have "Carpentry and Building Construction" by William H Spence, and it's pretty thorough. This will help you understand what you're undertaking. If you still think you're up for it, then analyze the structure yourself, draw something up, and run it past somebody who knows what they're doing- again, a good job for a structural engineer. This may be cheaper than having an engineer hold your hand through the whole process. A building permit and inspections in this case would benefit you a great deal, because to get a permit someone will have to look at your plans and the final installation to make sure you've done the job right.
Now I'll share one of my DIY load-bearing wall removal stories, so you know that it's not all fear and loathing:
I wanted to remove the wall between the narrow kitchen and the dining room in my 1.5 storey house- it was plain as day that the wall had to go, even when I walked through the house for the first time with the owner's slimy real estate agent. So it became the first structural task we had to take on once we bought the place.
Basement framing was exposed and there was no problem to get the load from my new header beam and posts securely to the foundation. And I knew from measurements in the stairwell that the floor above was framed with full dimension unplaned 2x8s, running over the top of the wall, and with an 18' span I knew that the wall would be bearing at least some load from these joists.
So, I cut a 1' strip of drywall off the ceiling on either side of the wall I wanted to remove, so I could see exactly how the joists above the wall were run. To my surprise and horror, it was immediately apparent that the wall had already been moved by someone far stupider than I, in an attempt to make the narrow galley kitchen at least a little more liveable. The joists were not continuous- they overlapped near the wall, and the wall should have been underneath the overlap to support both pieces- but it wasn't! Only two or so of the ~ 8 joists over the kitchen (fortunately, the shorter of the two spans) were actually bearing on the wall at all- and those by an inch at most. The others were just flapping in the breeze. The floor (and a knee wall bearing some of the roof load) above the kitchen was being supported by nails from joist to joist where they overlapped. The flooring, and some solid bridging, were spreading some of the load from the unsupported joists to the (barely) supported ones.
In fact this made my job easier. No need to build temporary supporting walls to allow me to remove the existing one- there was plenty of room to put up the new header and its trimmer studs right beside the existing wall, underneath the centre of the overlapped joists. There was surprisingly little jacking to do to get the bottoms of the kitchen ceiling joists back flat again- it wasn't bellied more than an inch over the ~ten foot span, despite the bad placement of the wall. And there were no sleepless nights- I KNEW that the house was more stable after I was done than before I started, because at least my header was actually supporting ALL the joists on both sides and bearing their load properly down to the foundation!
This is not intended to tell you that you don't need to worry about how the house is supported, just because a previous owner of my house was an cocky idiot who moved a wall without knowing what he was doing and yet got away with it. Instead, what I'm trying to tell you is that if you study a bit, are careful, and collect the information you need, it's possible to do a job like this yourself.
This should not be so difficult. Look in attic. If you have conventional roof framing (non-truss, otherwise you would not have interior bearing wall), the bearing wall will be carrying a ceiling load, estimate at 8-15 psf. Unfortunately, wood is a very weak material, so you will want to know the size of the opening that is realistic before starting. See below for calcs required.
The ceiling joists will overlap over the wall, so constructing a temporary bearing wall against the old should "catch" (be under) the old ceiling joists (verify). In this procedure (1) you will be exposing old studs and (2) constructing temporary bearing wall so you can replace bearing wall with header.
First, remove the gypbd/plaster from both sides of the wall at the planned opening. On one side this should be floor to ceiling (bm installation side), on the other, floor to anticipated top of opening (usually 6'-8") or door height. I am assumming this because it is easiest to use a drop beam below the ceiling joists. The old top plate stays in place.
Lay a 2x4 flat against the wall (opposite bm install side) tight to ceiling. Get it tight to ceiling by setting 2x4 vertically with narrow edge against wall (about 1/4" longer than distance from b.o. 2x4 edge and floor) (you may want to set 2x4 flat on floor to protect any finish to be retained) at ea end... needs to go in in @ diagonial (due to 1/4") and very lightly tap bottom or top at each end. Screw (2-2/2") the 2x4 flat through the drywall @ 8" OC opposite the bm install side into the existing 2-2x4 wall plate. Fasten a second 2x4 flat to this. You only need a few screws since it needs only to support it's own weight. Use mallett to drive 2nd 2x4 against first... loosen vertical 2x4's if necessary.
Next, tap end vertical 2x4's until plumb. Add additional vertical 2x4 under temporary plate at same spacing as the studs in orig. wall, but offset about 4" so you can get in recipricating saw blade to cut out old studs. You now have temp. new bearing wall. The old studs can be cut out, usually easiest by cutting about mid ht and then using leght to get leverage...just twist and yank.
Calculate beam size. I assume you don't have a wood design manual, so you will have to determine depth by long method.
1. Determine load per lineal foot on beam (w). Since 1/2 of load is supported by 2 exterior walls, take width of house (perpendicualr to bearing wall), divide by 2 and multiply by psf load. Example: if 30 wide, and 15 psf, w=30'/2 x 15 psf = 225 #/ft.
2. Determine Bending Moment (strength design) beam must resist due to loads. For a simple span beam M=(w x LxL) /8 or w L squared over 8 where L is the clear span or length of the beam. Example: M = 225 (10')(10') / 8 = 2813 #-ft. The top edge is in compression, bottom in tension, with a distance between, forming an internal moment or lever action within the beam. As long as the tension/compression forces in the beam do not exceed the strength of the material, it all stays up. As the beam gets deeper, the lever arm increases, hence the reason deeper beams can carry more load.
3. Determine Sx or Section Modulus (a measure of the distribution of material and stresses as a function of beam shape). Sx = M/Fb, where Fb is the strength in bending of the material. If you get Southern Pine # 2 or better, use Fb = 1100 psi. Example: Sx=2813#-ft (12in/ft) / 1100 #/inxin= 30.69 in cubed (note conversion units).
4. For a rectangualar beam, Sx is also Sx = bh(sq) / 6 where b is beam width and h is beam depth. Solving for h(sq) we get: h(sq)=6Sx/b. Say our bearing wall is 2x4 @ 3-1/2" or 3-5/8" wide. We opt to use 1/2" or 5/8" plywd between the 2x bm members (glue and screw). Example: h(sq) = 6 x 30.69 / 3.5" =52.6 or h=7.25" Use 2-2x8 w/ 1/2" plywd spacer.
Hope this helps. Now, for the engineering fee...