I just went to see a customer about new counter tops that she already ordered through a lumber yard.The house was built in 1980. The cabinets are custom sizes: length, width and toe kick are different from production cabs.The existing counters are laminate, as well as the new ones. The substrate is plywood. Here’s the question: when I removed the drawers I find no screws from a cab brace through the bottom side of the counter top. The counters are solidly fixed to the cabinets and are not going to give up easily. Since the corners are not miter cuts, I was wondering if they were done on site and the plywood was first screwed to the cabinet sides and then the laminate was applied. Also, I have only cut rectangular sinks into laminate counters not kidney shaped, which is what the customer bought.
Any advice on the removal of the old counters and cutting the new drop-in sink hole is appreciated.
Thanks,
Mark
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As for the removal -- you need to get on your back with a flashlight, and find out what the installer did. Then you need to undo it.
Note that the installer might have used some sort of adhesive, in which case you need to pray (Hard!) before attempting removal.
The sink -- whatever shape it is -- should have a paper template. If you have down-cut blades for your saber saw, tape the template to the top of the countertop. If not, turn the countertop AND THE TEMPLATE upside-down, and tape the template to the underside. Then just have at it.
Thanks for the info on the down-cut blades. Already got 'em.
While on-site I had the flashlight out and thought if it was glue that I would see some squeeze out somewhere in over 18ft of counter, but didn't.
Mark
You may be right --- counter tops fabricated on site with screws going down from the top.
I would slip a thin putty knife under the counter top and start sliding along until I found a fastener or glue.
If fastened from the top -- I would locate the fasteners with a magnet (probably piffin screws) - dig through the laminate with an old chisel and attempt to unscrew them. If unscrewing did not work -- chisel out a hole big enough to grip the heads with ViseGrips - turn them out that way.
I would not resort to brute force - "I gotta pretty good crack goin', gimme the big bar!" Bad things always happen......
Jim
.
Never underestimate the value of a sharp pencil or good light.
Thanks Jim. Good info on looking for the fasteners under the laminate and good advice on leaving the brute force at home!
Mark
I've never cared for the down tooth blades... relax a little, and the jig saw's all over the place. Fine toothed or metal blades from the top are what I like.http://www.tvwsolar.com
We'll have a kid
Or maybe we'll rent one
He's got to be straight
We don't want a bent one
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If things loosen up
One thing I found about the down toothers, set the orbit on the jiggy saw at zero, cuts a LOT better.Spheramid Enterprises Architectural Woodworks
Repairs, Remodeling, Restorations
"If Brains was lard, you couldn't grease much of a pan"Jed Clampitt
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If you're using any orbit on a laminate, aren't you kinda asking for it, anyhow?http://www.tvwsolar.com
We'll have a kid
Or maybe we'll rent one
He's got to be straight
We don't want a bent one
He'll drink his baby brew
From a big brass cup
Someday he may be president
If things loosen up
Hmmmm. I always taped and never looked if I had orbit on or not..LOL My barrel grip has 3 settings, I rarely move it. And have not cut out a sink in 6 yrs.Spheramid Enterprises Architectural Woodworks
Repairs, Remodeling, Restorations
"If Brains was lard, you couldn't grease much of a pan"Jed Clampitt
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How about a rare earth magnet to locate fasteners under the laminate or in the cabinet walls."Shawdow boxing the appoclipse and wandering the land"
Wier/Barlow
Good one, thanks!
Mark
Mark, Around here, most counters installed in the 80's were built as you described - plywood nailed and maybe even glued to the edges of the cabs.
I would try to find a corner or spot on the edge where you could gently insert a flat bar and start prying the old counters up. A sawzall with a metal cutting blade might help with the nails close to the edges. Tops may need to be cut into sections in order to remove. A circular saw with its depth set to the countertop thickness will take care of this.
As far as a kidney-shaped sink, it should come with a template, either inside the box, or printed on the box itself. If it doesn't, and the sink is a symetrical shape, just turn the sink upside down and trace it onto the top, moving your actual cut line inward the appropriate amount to allow for the flange. If it's not symetrical, you can trace the rim of the sink on the bottom of the countertop, move your layout lines inward and cut from the bottom.
Probably too late now, but did the lumberyard catch that the cabinets were not standard sizes? I've went to install tops several times and the countertop depths didn't jive with the cabinets.
Mike
Thanks Mike. Yes the lumberyard did catch the over-sized cabs. I was thinking the same thing. Glad to know that tops were made as I described in the first post and that gives me a little more to go on. There is a manufacturer's sink template, I was concerned about chip out from the skill saw. The last one I did, I went from the top, used blue making tape, down-tooth blades and in one area the chip out was close to being visible!
Thanks for taking the time to reply.
Mark
You can transfer the manufacturer's template to 1/4-inch mdf, to make a router template.
The hole in the mdf is easy to clean up with a bit of sand paper, and you can check it against the sink to be sure the cutout is the right size, and you won't have problems.
You then attach the template with double sided carpet tape, and make the cut out with a down shear straight bit with a top bearing added. Absolutely no chips.
You do have to be carefull of the cutout falling down in at the end. I usually just screw some 1x2, over 1/4-inch mdf scraps, into the cutout from above as I finish the cut on each side, to support it, when the final side is cut. Taping, a bit of the scrap 1/4-inch mdf to the base plate of the router helps keep it from tipping during the cut.
Jigs,
Thanks. Great idea with making a pattern!
And a big thanks to ALL for the brainstorming and good suggestions!
Mark
It's an even money bet that the countertops are glued down to the cabinets. The cabs might also be veneered particle board. Very common in the 80's and a gin-u-wine SOB to get apart!!!
I have glued down tops, I have also screwed them down from the top. I have wrestled some tops big time just to get them off and damaged the cabs in the process.I cringe to think of the person who has to deal with the tops I glued and screwed down.I do my tops differently now.I use Simpson angle brackets from below. On most of the tops I have done this way, the next guy will be able to unscrew and then slide the top out, resurface if wanted or use as template.The Woodshed Tavern Backroom
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Thanks Ken. By the looks of the counters I have I'm thinking you were in Vermont in the early 80s! I like your new method.
Mark
Thanks Dave.Solid pine, no particle board. S-O-B DEFINITELY!
If site vuilt, you might be right. They could be glued down with const adhesive too.
I'd start with a 12" metal cutting sawsall blade and shims. Once you get started and start driving a shim a little more as you cut, it gets easier to see what you are doing. Another option is the universal offset blade on the multimaster. It will cut nails and screws.
The sink should have come with a template. Position, trace, and cut from the backside with a jigsaw blade. Drill a 3/8" hole first to fit the blade in. Support the cuttout so it does not fall to the floor and chip out the surface as you are almost finished with the cut.
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Thanks for the info. I think the start will be the hardest & then as you suggested put in shims between the cab & counter.
Yup, there is a template. My latent dyslexia always kicks in when trying to imagine the counter/sink/template upside down! Probably more worried about screwing up than anything else.
Mark
i used to glue and nail countertops on like crazy,i don't think you could get one off without tearing up something. still probably nail to much,but no glue.
any chance you could cut the overhang off and lay the new top over it?it would be 3/4"higher ?a little trim pc on the front edge.
for the sink cutout i use the downcut blades,but if your worried about tearout could you make a wood template and then use a router bit?
the older i get ,
the more people tick me off
Thanks. Keeping the existing counter and laying the new one on top could work. Hmmm.....I need to sleep on that!
Down cut blades from the top of the counter?
Mark
i use down cut sabre saw blades,from the top. usally a stainless or cast iron drop in sink so it covers everything.
i have overlayed several tops,the difference being was i was also appling formica on site.
i lay a 1/2 mdf or particle board over the old top,screw it down,fill the screw holes with a little bondo and i'm ready to go. the front edge band ends up 1/2 wider but who cares.the older i get ,
the more people tick me off
FYI. . . Lacquer thinner will melt cured contact cement. Turns it back into goop.
In case that's your situation.