I am currently renovating a two family house built in 1927. It has beautiful trim and exposed beams in the dining room. This wood has a shellac finish which also contains the color (a dark reddish brown). I am fairly certain of this as de-natured alcohol applied thoroughly in a test area took both the finish and the color from the wood.<!—-> <!—->
The finish is quite uneven and rough in some places (alligatored). Wear has also caused some unevenness in the color. What is the best, least difficult way to even out the finish and color. The result does not need to be perfect, but I need an improvement. <!—->
Thanks, <!—->
Rossy <!—->
Replies
Since the finish has failed and you've already started, wipe off (essentially strip) everything you can with alcohol. Works better if you can put something on the finish that will let it stay wet awhile. Example - flat surfaces I put those blue shop paper towels on and let the alcohol sit there for 10-15 min. A card scraper will shave about 90% of the finish at this point. Wet towels will stick to a vertical surface once you hold them long enough for the shellac to get tacky. Wipe the rest off with rags, brass brushes in crannies - pretty much like any other strip job.
Garnet shellac sounds like what you have. If you're gentle with the scraper and dont shave the wood, you're in good shape. You can order it a variety of places, it mixes and applies easily.
You're going to go through a lot of alcohol, but it's less damaging to virtually everything else than, say, stripeze.
"If you pick up a starving dog and make him prosperous, he will not bite you. This is the principal difference between a dog and a man." - Mark Twain
Hey RW and Frenchy,<!----><!---->
Thanks for the info, this is a really vexing problem. I did try to soften the finish with alcohol and smooth it. However, I guess I was kind of clumsy. I couldn't get it to smooth out without marring the color. I think it is a Garnet shellac (really nice in some places). <!---->
I was considering sanding lightly with 220 grain sandpaper, doing a light rub with the denatured alcohol and perhaps finishing with a wax paste. How does that sound? Perhaps even a paste with some color? Granted, it's a lot of work but none of the steps requires much skill and I could break up the tasks among one or two other people.<!---->
Thanks again,
Rossy
I think both Frenchy and Gold have it right, in different scenarios. My read based on your description is that the finish was essentialy done, which, if that is the case, your proposal will do little to rectify. You'll still have a dead finish, but less of it, and you're simply aesthetically obscuring it with wax, which will not last. Not to mention its a boatload of work to apply wax. I really do think you're miles ahead of the game to just bite the bullet and strip it. The plus side is no finish comes off easier than this will for you. The down is you're going to be swimming in DNA for a day. Hope you don't smoke. Open a window."If you pick up a starving dog and make him prosperous, he will not bite you. This is the principal difference between a dog and a man." - Mark Twain
I agree with what you said, and once he applies wax, if the shellac alligators or for whatever reason he wants to fix it later, he has to remove the wax (and hope it doesn't have silicone in it) before new shellac will stick. Better to strip as much as possible now and recoat with garnet shellac.
I've heard shellac can be stripped with ammonia--but that would probably raise the grain in the wood, right? (Ammonia is supposedly good for rinsing out brushes.)
I've stripped some recently, so I feel vaguely qualified on this one. One drawback to completely removing the shellac is that you will lose a fair amount of the color if you simply apply new shellac, regardless of what color the shellac is. And it probably was orange shellac rather than garnett, as orange was the finish of choice from about 1880 to 1920 for much woodwork. Shellac ages (beautifully in my opinion) and new shellac will not have the same color. So if you strip you will probably want to strip all. And if you strip, it is worthwhile to get any wax and dirt off FIRST, then use denatured alcohol. Mineral spirits will remove wax and dirt. The denatured alcohol will work, but since it evaporates so fast it is better to use mineral spirits first.One trick I was taught but I didn't try is to re-amalgamate the shellac. Use about a 50-50 mix of denatured alcohol and turpentine, 0000 steel wool, and rub in a swirling motion just enough to soften the shellac. I use a small metal bucket to hold the solution regardless of the approach. I have also heard of using boiled linseed oil instead of turpentine, but as I said, I have not tried either of these methods. They might work if you only have problems in spots.Good luck!
If it is shellac the sand paper won't work, it will just clog immediately.
I refinished some oak ceiling beams that were as you described and all the other posters have it right on. Took a lot of alcohol and time but it came off. When you apply the new shellac, the more coats the darker it will get. But don't expect it to be the close to black color you have now. More of a rich deep color. You can also use ammonia but if you think the alcohol is bad.......... Just keep rubbing and you will be pleased with the results.
I suspect that the heat in the summer in these old homes caused the deterioration of the shellac over the years, Now that many of them are airconditioned I think it will help preserve the finish. It used to get to be 90+ inside in the summer and that can't be good for any finish.
I can't thank everyone enough for the well considered advice on this topic. I've decided to get a small sampler pack of various shellacs, verify the current finish and try to touch it up, removing where necessary. (I will avoid the sandpaper.) If after a few sections it's apparent that I cannot match closely enough, I’ll bite the bullet and remove all the old and bring in the new.<!----><!---->
Ordinarily, I'd go straight for the most thorough solution. But I have two dining rooms to do and not nearly enough time to do them. Thanks again to everyone; I look forward to the time when I have enough experience to be so generous.<!---->
Regards,<!---->
Rossy<!---->
The old shellac was probably tinted, almost all old shellac jobs I have ever worked on were. You can get alc-based dyes to match, with a little tweaking.
Naturally, stripping the old finish is the best way to get a smooth surface, but you can do some toning with tinted shellac(de-waxed), then top coat with a water-clear finish, either lacquer or water-based polyurethane.
Cleaning with mineral spirits is ok, but do not use linseed oil for any reason.
The Homestead site was a great suggestion, there's a lot of great info there, and spraying will definitely give better results. You can rent a sprayer and do some practice on scrap before you shoot the big Kahunna. A little touch-up gun will be the best choice for 'tuning up the toning', you can add 'age' where you need it.Shellac is a non-toxic finish. Guess what makes it "melt in your mouth, not in your hand?"
try this, you'll be surprised at how well it works.. take the worst spots and get a rag damp with alcohol. Denatured alcohol, keep it damp and rub it back and forth untill everything feels smooth.. Don't try to rub everything clear just try to rub it untill it smooths out..
The shellac can "fix" itself with the use of alcohol..
Tough call to make from a distance.
Depending upon how alligatored the finish is, you may (or may not) be able to reconstitute it and smooth things out to a degree by applying denatured alcohol to the surface. I'm thinking doing this with a brush would be a viable approach as it would allow you to blend the surface while you are re-disssolving the shellac. Once redistributed, you would then apply more shellac over the surface. To prevent altering the color, that shellac would be blonde or super-blonde. Zinnser's SealCoat wouldn't be a bad selection. Ready to go out of the can.
Note that I am not encouraging the above approach because it's likely that the current shellac is on its last legs and has lost it elasticity. That's why it's alligatored. The wood moves and the shellac is no longer able to stay in sync with that. Cracking or alligatoring results. You could end up with the same result within a short period of time by trying to rejuvenate what's there even though you apply some fresh shellac over the top.
Stripping all the existing finish and reapplying would be best. Shellac is easy to remove. From your description of color, this could be garnet shellac. You won't likely find that on the shelf anywhere near you, so you'd have to order it in. But…..it may not be garnet at all. Shellac naturally darkens with the passage of time and exposure to the atmosphere. Eventually it would turn very dark. If you want to return to something close to the color you have now, garnet might be your best choice. Blonde and super-blonde will impart little, if any color at all.
If you intend or might desire to put a more durable finish over the top of the shellac after the color is re-established, then make sure you use a dewaxed product. (The SealCoat is a dewaxed product, but imparts little if any color.)
Here's one source for various shellacs. http://www.shellac.net/ShellacPricing800.html
Another place to look for supplies would be Homestead Finishing. There you will also find flattening agents for shellac if you wish to reduce the gloss, as well as additives to reduce "fat edge" which can easily occur when brushing shellac.
"Another place to look for supplies would be Homestead Finishing. There you will also find flattening agents for shellac if you wish to reduce the gloss, as well as additives to reduce "fat edge" which can easily occur when brushing shellac."And dyes if they want to make it darker or other other color.
In situations like that I have rubbed de-natured alcohol with OOOO steal wool. My intent was not to strip it of but to re-apply it.
Then I would go back over it with a couple more coats of shellac.
On antiques where I did that I paste waxed over that.
Doug
Rossy,
In addition to the advice others have shared, I'll offer this: I use scotchbrite pads dipped in denatured alcohol to remove old shellac. Choosing the right texture is key: too rough, and you're likely to go down to bare wood unexpectedly; too smooth and you'll use more elbow grease than necessary. Experiment.
FWIW, I've had very good results with Moser's shellac flakes available through Woodworker's Supply of New Mexico. Remember to store unused shellac flakes in a cool, dry, place.
I grind my shellac flakes in a coffee grinder (used only for that purpose) before mixing with alcohol, and it seems to help the mixing go faster. When mixing, stir constantly or the undissolved shellac flakes can stick to the mixing container. When dissolved completely, I pour through a filter into either my spray gun or, if I'll be wiping on, my favorite shellac container - an old Grolsch beer bottle.
When it's time to reapply, you might want to consider HVLP; it's a lot quicker, and you get more consistent results than ragging or brushing, especially with seedlac, ruby, garnet etc. Make sure you filter your shellac before applying irrespective of the application method you chooses: it's essential when spraying, and helpful in keeping solids and contaminants out of your applied finish even when wiping or brushing.
Good luck,
-Jazzdogg-
Whether you think you can, or you think you can't, you're right.