Replies

1. 
   Mad_Dog | Sep 26, 1999 07:54pm | #1

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   Here in Wisconsin, lake associations and local ordinances
   are starting to frown upon and ban treated lumber in contact
   or sometimes above water. I don't know if there is any
   statewide discussion on this or not, but locally, creosote
   for example is illegal.

   You may want to put yourself ethically into the picture if
   you care at all about the watershed-treated wood may not be
   a good idea.

   My experiences so far are mostly with take-out docks. I did
   install a pier in N. Wisconsin with driven posts. This has
   weathered well, even though it was not really meant to be a
   permanent structure.

   Some questions: Does the water freeze solid where you are
   located? How big a dock will it be? Will it be used to
   moor a lot of large boats? What is the lake/river/ocean
   whataever bottom composed of, ie is it muck, sand, marl,
   rocky, etc. Is there current? How deep is the water, and
   how deep to get a good footing? Is it located in a
   protected area or no wake zone or will it be exposed to a
   lot of wind on occasion? (Dock next to ours flipped this
   spring, taking a 22 foot boat over with it).

   How much wear and tear do you expect from foot/other
   traffic? This will have something to do with the decking
   more than the pilings. I would expect cypress to do pretty
   well without an inordinate amount of heavy traffic but I
   have very little experience with cypress. Others would know
   better.

   I prefer the look and feel of wood, feel it is worth
   replacing now and then. Your client(s) may or may not want
   to consider other decking.

   Good luck whatever you do here, will try to help more if you
   can provide more info. I'm guessing you're down south if
   looking int

1. 
   david_ingle | Sep 26, 1999 10:40pm | #2

   *Thanks for your input........the dock is in East Tennessee on a lake that stays pretty much at a constant level (+ or- a couple of feet or so). Normally the water doesn't freeze at all except maybe a little around the shore, but far from freezing solid. The dock + an elevated deck is approx.600-700sq ft......the dock is mainly for swimming access and an occasional visting boat....the owners have a boathouse for their boats during non-use times.The dock is located at the mouth of a cove but would experiece wind, waves and anything else mother nature can muster up........little to no current however. The lake bottom, I would suspect is muck for a bit...then whatever....water depth would vary from 2-3 ft near the bank to maybe 10-12 ft.......how deep in the muck to solid bearing?... I don't know that yet, but PT wooden pilings have been driven before, so apparently there's enough of something down there for those to work. Pilings and PT decking seem to be what most everyone has used in the area, but like I mentioned before,I'm seeking an upscale look, value, and quality finished product. If I can reasonably do better, that's what I want. Pollution of the lake from posts would be insignificate I would suspect on a large lake such as this.......but I will check with TVA who has jurisdiction on any structure along the shore. Another consideration is access for equiptment of any size.....access would have to be from a barge or something due to the terrain.I apologize for my spelling......I'm still a hillbilly even if I went to college.

2. 
   Guest_ | Sep 26, 1999 11:56pm | #3

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   David,

   Only old growth cypress will hold up, I am in La. where we use alot of cypress sinker for exterior. How about teak or similar tropicals, or Trex.

   kk

3. 
   david_ingle | Sep 27, 1999 01:18am | #4

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   kk,
   Trex idea got the axe already by owners and I think I still prefer wood myself. The other woods like teak are a consideration also, I just haven't located a source yet for it or cypress and I have no idea of the costs involved. How does the cypress hold up as compared to pressure treated yellow pine and any idea of the cost for 2x6x16 old growth cypress?......Do you not recommend cypress or is it not a practical choice?

4. 
   Guest_ | Sep 27, 1999 02:41am | #5

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   David,

   Down here old growth cypress runs $3 B.F. and up. New cypress (growback) is .35-.90 B.F. Old will last if painted or treated with water repellant. I like Woodlife or CWF .

   I can't spell or type either, degree also but still a coonass.

1. 
   Guest_ | Sep 27, 1999 04:01am | #6

   *Yellow pine ain't so good with moisture but it seems to be the only thing available (these days)with pressure treatment. By, far, the most commonly used underwater pier material historically was hemlock, followed by white cedar (north of the 49th parallel, anyway). Black locust also stands up well underwater according to some. Full round, de-barked piers will stand up better than milled timbers. Instead of the now banned cresote, concrete foundation, driveway and roofing waterproofing coatings often used ... several coats allowed to absorb under the direct heat of the sun. This may not be environmentally sound, though.The most vulnerable areas of decay of underwater piers are the in-bottom section and the waterline section... where ever oxygen aids organic decay. I prefer non-presure treated piles and piers because the heat and pressure of the treatment process drives out the natural preseratives of the wood and tends to make the fibers brittle. Unlike above ground applications, underwater applications saturate the wood. Pressure treatment does not penetrate the full depth of the lumber or piles. Wood last longer in salt water than fresh water. You will notice on inspection, that pressure treatments involve a mechanical dimpling step, putting thousands of small surface indentations to aid the penetration of the anti-fungal salts. This is counterproductive since it increases the surface area dramatically, exposing more of the wood to the very elements you want to protect it from.If you don't have a freeze-thaw cycle at your latitude, concrete may last as long as wooden piers. But in the north, concrete rarely lasts as long as wood does for dock foundations. That why even the most expensive commercial warfs and docks are usually built with full-round wooden piles. Piles are driven into the bottom, tree-top down to an engineered depth based on load and bottom conditions. Concrete piers cannot be driven, they must be placed on a solid anchor point. This makes the cost of concrete much higher since excavation and caisons are required to get down to bedrock.We don't have cyprus but hemlock, white cedar (swamp cedar), black spruce (swamp spruce) contain heavy amounts of natural pitch and thrive alive in wet ground, frequent flooding. Pine is not one of the woods known for its ability to work in water.

5. 
   robbwilson | Sep 27, 1999 10:04am | #7

   *
   I was down in Culebra (off of Puerto Rico) several years
   ago, and the owner of a dock there had build out into the
   bay using 8" or 10" plastic sewer pipes that were then
   filled with concrete. I thougth it was pretty slick, and it
   looked great. Drilling through the plastic tubing was easy
   and allowed him to put in galvanized thru bolts to catch his
   diagonal bracing and dock flooring stringers.

   I looked into it in NJ, but nobody had heard of doing it
   this way. They still use either creosote coated pilings or
   copper / arsenic treated pilings. Apparently, the creosote
   will "bleed" hyrdrocarbon residues into the water for at
   least 6 months, but then slows down and eventually stops.
   The "treated" pilings are soaked in a copper / arsenic
   mixture (giving them their trademark green look), and
   unfortunately, they bleed small amounts of copper and
   aresnic indefinitely from what I had read. Both copper and
   arsenic (naturally) are extremely toxic to marine / aquatic
   life. I believe the marine ecologists don't like either -
   but the creosote coated pilings are less environmentally
   damaging than the copper / aresenic.

   You may want to seriously research the plastic pipe cement
   route. Those pilings in Culebra were built to withstand
   hurricanes, and like I said, it looked very clean and sharp.

   When I talked to the owner, he said he had built it himself.
   First he would install the pipe into a hole in the bay mud,
   he had blown out with a water jet pump. Then he would bore
   and install the bolts and wooden stringers. THen he said he
   built the decking to the first pair of pilings, and used
   that to wheelbarrow out the concrete to fill the pilings
   with. When the first two piling cores had solidified, he
   built out to the next two - etc, until he had the dock

6. 
   Guest_ | Sep 27, 1999 11:48am | #8

   *
   Hey kkearney - when I was in the service I used to hear that expression "coonass". Can you tell me what it represents? Is it a certain bloodline? Is it where you might be from? Whassup? Thanks - jb

1. 
   Guest_ | Sep 27, 1999 07:16pm | #9

   *david I am in an area with fresh, brackish, and salt water. There is very little variance. Creosote has been outlawed for a while. Pressure treated is the wat to go. Dipping in any solution doesn't permeate the material like pressure treating. Go with that and let detailing and Your craftsmanship give it the upscale look. How about a floating area and dress the piles with some copper caps with some distinct flair good luck. Skip

1. 
   Guest_ | Sep 28, 1999 04:07am | #11

   *jb,Coonass is cajun with an attitude! How did the marble come out?kk

7. 
   david_ingle | Sep 28, 1999 04:07am | #10

   *
   I'm to replace a dock built on wooden pilings several years ago and, I am debating on whether to reuse the existing pilings, have new ones driven, or possibly try a cast in place concrete piers using sonotubes. Does anyone have experiece or advice one way or another? I'm expecting the concrete piers wouldn't be worth the trouble compared to driven pressure teated poles....... Also considering using cypress decking instead of pressure teated pine....the existing pressure teated decking looks terrible and hasn't faired well.....does cypress decking do well?....Cost is not a real issue if the cypress is better since this is an upper end project. Any comments will be welcomed.