Replacing p-trap- PVC connector problem
I am installing a new tub and need to replace the p-trap. To remove the p-trap, I had to cut the 2†PVC pipe connecting the p-trap to a 4†T-connector in-line with the 4†main drainage pipe. Only 3/8†to 1/2†(it was not a straight cut) of the 2†PVC pipe now extrude from the 4†T-connector.
How can I extend a 2†PVC pipe that extrudes only 3/8†from a connector?
Should I use a 2†coupler with glue and hope for the best? Should I use the 2†coupler with glue and straddle the joint with a rubber sleeve with hose clamps for extra holding strength? Should I use the coupler with glue and add a strip of marine silicone around the seam? Should I try to glue a smaller diameter pipe into the 2†pipe, effectively adding a step down from a 2†to 1.5†diameter pipe (although wouldn’t that greatly slow the draining of the tub and potentially cause back-ups and clogging in the future)?
Other ideas?
Replacing the 4†T-connection is not a good option as I would have to rip out part of the subfloor to do so and the inflexibility of the 4†pipe would make adding connectors and a new t-joint very difficult.
Your advice is greatly appreciated!
Thank you,
– Lyptus
Replies
You can get drills/remeemers/cutters that will cut out a male pipe stub in a female fitting.
Don't know now much that they cost.
William the Geezer, the sequel to Billy the Kid - Shoe
Those things are wrist breaker/knuckle beaters.
I used one on a 3" tee going straight down. I can't imagine how difficult it would be working over your head with one.
Even when I got the stub out, I didn't like the look of the hub. It was chewed up in a couple of spots.
I would cut the 4" pipe back far enough on each side of the tee and use repair couplings to rebuild it.
Clean it well, prime and glue it up. Although it is not a premium condition, you should be fine.
Always give the connection a twist when first assembling with glue.... 1/2 turn.
I refuse to accept that there are limitations to what we can accomplish. Pete Draganic
Take life as a test and shoot for a better score each day. Matt Garcia
Edited 2/9/2009 8:50 am ET by PeteDraganic
Clean it well, prime and glue it up. Although it is not a premium condition, you should be fine.
yep, it's not like the thing is under pressure and in a situ like this it should suffice.
Don't know about the 1/2 twist thing tho'. You talking about a 180degree twist? And DaveRichardson saying a 1/4 turn?
What's the manufacturer's take on degree of turning? I usually vary between 1l8 and 1/4 and never had a problem.
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you are probably right on a full connection... I don't recall ever getting a 1/2 twist because it will bind up sooner than that but with the limited surface contact here I figured a half twist might do more to work up a bond.
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I refuse to accept that there are limitations to what we can accomplish. Pete Draganic
Take life as a test and shoot for a better score each day. Matt Garcia
I see, makes sense.
and don't spare the glue.
from the sound of your problem you have a much larger issue to contend with , is this tub vented?
The 4" main drainage pipe is vented.- Lyptus
but is the tub vented
I guess I don't know what you mean?
I have never seen a tub that is not vented.You have about 30"x60" of open air space above it..
William the Geezer, the sequel to Billy the Kid - Shoe
tub drain not vented
>>You have about 30"x60" of open air space above it
That is the basin, not a vent.
The trap/drain pipe must be vented within 30" IIRCC.
I know. My comment was tounge in check because of the way the question was asked and after he did not accept the first answer. The way that I read it the trap empties directly into the main stack.The length of the trap leg is one of the big differences between IPC/IRC and NPC.And they vary by the fixture and/or size of the drain.IIRC tubs are 60", but don't hold me to that..
William the Geezer, the sequel to Billy the Kid - Shoe
After checking, I don't have enough clearance space to cut and chip out the old pipe. So I'm back to either cutting the 4" pipe or fitting a 2" coupling on the 3/8" protruding end of the 2" pipe. I checked to see if I could get a 2" Fernco rubber coupling over the 2.25" diameter female end of the T-connector and it would not fit. So unless you all have ideas of expanding the Fernco coupling, I thought of another option. What do you all think of gluing a 2" coupler to the protruding piece and then cutting 3" off the circumference of a 3" pipe and applying the piece like a cuff, with glue and hose clamps, over the joint. Wouldn't that hold it together and minimize any risk of leaks in the drain pipe?Or would applying silicone or some other adhesive be a better way of reinforcing the joint? The only other option is cutting the 4" pipe but I don't see how I would have room to install two 4" couplings and a new 4" T when the entire pipe run is pretty rigid.- Lyptus
Repair couplings are made for your fix. They don't have an inner stop, so they slide all the way onto the ends of the pipe.
Cut out the tee with about 8" of pipe on each side of it. Rebuild that section with new material exactly matching the cut out section. Slide your repair couplings on the adjacent pipe ends and then slip the repair coulping in place. dry fit everything first and mark for the crrect alignment. Now doing one end at a time slide back a coupling, slather on the cement and quickly slide the coupling back in place. Let set a few minutes and reat the procedure on the other side. Don't skimp on the glue or forget the 1/4 turn twist. It is easy to get a starved glue joint with repair coupling. If that happen, use a heat gun to heat up the coupling to very warm to touch. slather more glue on the ends and it will suck into the joint just like solder.
The repair couplings, or slip couplings are the trick for the 4" pipe.
You need to use regular weight PVC cement and use a lot of it so that you can get the repair coupling in place prior to it setting up.
they work great but you need to be used to them and be able to muscle them into place where you are working.
I would try the suggestion on honing out the 2" piece first and see if I can get it out, either with a dremel and gringer, solvents, small chisel and hammer, etc. I've done it before with mixed success (if I get rammy and hit too hard, the bell on the fitting breaks then replacing the fitting)
I dont know that I would risk trying to glue the existing stub and am certain that I would not try to rig a fitting or use a fernco.
I've pulled apart enough fittings that were not installed properly because of the level of difficulty to do it right and most of the time they were leaking.
Ditto on using the heavier glue and plenty of it. Tomorrow I have to go back and cut out a 3" one under a toilet that I put in Saturday. I had to rebuild the floor and had good access so I cut the line, managed to get it at a slant/slash cut so I used a repair coupler that had a sloppy fit. Compounded problem by using some older almost jelled glue. Thought I could rejuvenate it with a splash of pvc cleaner, NOT.
Will be putting a Fernco on after cutting above fitting and then surgically removing it (I hope) with the little Bosch multi-x, just hope it does not take over the 8 minutes everyone says it lasts (;-).For those who have fought for it Freedom has a flavor the protected will never know.
let me get this right, you are going to shave the sloppy leaking slip coupling out with a Bosch cordless Multi-Master wanna be?
First of all, I think the multi-master, if it had a curved cutting bit, would be awesome for cutting out fittings from the inside and the straight one will probably work if from the outside.
Second of all, I have learned that "maybe this jelled glue will work for this one fitting" lesson more than once.
I am done with that lesson!! I have at least 1 quart container on my trailer and 1 pint container at all times.
I also duct tape the container to the primer. It is amazing how infrequently I knock them over when taped together.
When separate I spill them every day.
Other thing I do is the pint container is usually taped to clear primer for gluing up under sinks and finish work and the purple primer is for rough work.
I always hated seeing a purple spot in the bottom of the sink base when walking houses with client at final inspection.
Not going to clean it out, cut above, probably cut down the side. Pry off the slip coupling. If not smooth able then just cut the section out and replace using a standard coupler and either a repair coupling or a Fernco. If Fernco is long enough may just cut at top and bottom.
Got a real multimaster but for cutting all this the Bosch will be fine. I used recip to cut , even put tape around and thought it was cutting square.
Great idea on having the primer/cleaner taped to the glue. I would never buy a quart, my problem was with a (actually two) small cans that were not all that old. I keep telling myself that I am going to get a fresh can for every job no matter how small. Maybe I will listen.
Some inspectors like to see the purple to prove you primed. I hate the look too.
When we built our addition one of the guys failed to glue a cpvc joint in the wall. Moved in April, around Nov heard water running on the way to bed. About a 10 ft radius of water on the cherry floor. Shut it off, removed the laundry sink, cut into the wall. One joint had no trace of primer or glue, printing was undisturbed. All went back down ok. I used a hole saw and cut a few holes on subfloor and used shopvac to suck a lot of water out.For those who have fought for it Freedom has a flavor the protected will never know.
Rascon
amazing that that cpvc held for that long.
I've always used the one step glue for cpvc and no primer. Never had a problem but I dont do a ton of cpvc
Mostly either copper or Pex
I have not had any problems with glued CPVC joints, just the non-glued. I did my thing today with the 3" pvc. The little Bosch did it's thing fine. I cut it off at the top of the coupling, then cut down the side. Used a screw driver to loosen it up, then cut about half through vert and opened it like a lobster tail. Cleaned it up with the sander on the Bosch. Slipped the Fernco on.
Would have cleaned up easier if I had not tried to fix it with some of that plumber/marine glue #### the other day.For those who have fought for it Freedom has a flavor the protected will never know.
I've learned the gelled glue lesson too, but not on a repair coupling.
I have had repair couplings leak because I didn't get enough cement slather on. or wasn't quick enough when sliding them in place. That fix is fairly simple with a heat gun and more glue.
Kind of like sweating a copper joint. You heat the coupling with the heat gun until it is to warm to touch, the run a thick dauper uf glue around each end of the coupling. It will suck into the joint just like solder on copper fitting and seal up tight.
I was skeptical that the trick would work when the guys at my supply house told me about it, but with only a 50% success rate with repair couplings I figured why not? I have used it several time since then with great results, and not all the time on my own work.
Thanks for the tip! Will try to remember it (;-).For those who have fought for it Freedom has a flavor the protected will never know.
Good for you.
re. fernco's I avoid them if at all possible.
Guys use them a lot but eventually the rubber will break down if the clamp doesnt loosen.
I use them but very sparingly.
This is in a 100+ yr old building. It is in a basement and easily accessable and visable. Even if a little dribble were to occur it is probably no issue when compared to the rest of the place.
The sad thing is I had a regular coupling, a stub, and a new toilet flange with me. Should have used them after getting a new can of glue like I should have. I have never had any problems with Ferncos though.
To sort of unhijack I was thinking about the original problem:
In OP's case I would glue to to a 3/8-1/2 stub rather than hoping for a Fernco to grip. Also he is doing a tub, not a shower, why can't he get heavy glue and glue a 1 1/2 stub into the 2". Then if worried put a 1 1/2 to 2" fernco over it . I would lose no sleep with that.
Bob, just hacking at it and sniffing glue.For those who have fought for it Freedom has a flavor the protected will never know.
Your way might work but I really like doing it the way it is supposed to be done.
Rarely leaks that way. Other ways, you just dont know.
If a basement ceiling, unfin, I would not loose any sleep either way
Guys use them a lot but eventually the rubber will break down if the clamp doesnt loosen
I work in a building where literally ever piece of CI is jointed with Mitchlen bands. They are the same principle as a fernco but have a full metal sleave around the rubber. I can tell you from personal experience I have never replaced one beause of the clamps comming loose or the rubber sleave failing in the past 25 years. For some reason the rubber tends to weld itself to the pipe over the years and is less likely to leak. They also become a real PITA to remove, as we often do, to get a drain snake into a line.
We have used Fernco fitting in some places where it was impossible to get the CI back together with the other type. Again, no leaks or problems with those repairs either.
Dave:
I've experienced the rubber welded to the CI and agree it is a bugger.
I've also renovated residential stuff with ferncos on PVC and removed the drywall that had mold all over it from the drip from the fitting.
I never diagnosed the "Why" but it was at the fitting.
I know the metal banded stuff is used with CI everywhere and when I have to use a fernco, I go with the banded ones but prefer a glued joint whenever possible.
I've also never been back on a service call when I installed a fernco but i've seen the leaks.
The question of a vent seems to have gotten lost in the conversations. I would certainly try to locate where the nearest one is in order to have to job come out right-not just figure if it didn't have one before it doesn't need one now. I believe the length of the trap arm for 2" is five feet. Also, with a 4" main line, it might be working as a 'wet' vent.
I was wondering if the vent question was going to enter into the situation as well.
People for the most part don't concern themselves with vents when doing repair work.
Odd, being that is one of the most efficient times to correct a bad situation.
But we all live and roll on.
If you can see the vertical vent connection from the tub then you are probably okay. You are taking the 2" line from the p trap to a 4" tee; for that distance the 4" line to the vent stack will work fine as a 'wet' vent. As far as the soldering goes, just make sure your fittings and pipe are cleaned well and you use a good paste flux. I use a tin roofing flashing- 90 degree- to put behind my pipes for soldering and keep a bucket with water and a rag or a spray bottle of water. I also now use a product from Kimball Midwest that I can spray on the middle of ball valves and solder them in with no damage to the plastic parts. You can spray it on a piece of cardboard and try to light it with a torch and it won't burn. Pretty nifty. Have fun.
You can glue it and hope for the best, or you might have enough for a Fernco coupling to catch. Me, I would cut the inside of the 2" with a hacksaw blade and chip it out, (if there is room to get to it). Just be careful with the 4" fitting. Too much smacking and you in worse shape.
If you can get a hacksaw blade in the 2 inch pipe and cut two slits in it lengthwise then keep wiping it with pvc cleaner or primer that will break the glue bond, just keep wiggling the 2 inch with a pair of pliers. I've had to do this quite a few times, I glue faster than I can think.
could you just cap the 2" pipe extending from the 4" tee route the tub drain to a easy acess area cut a new 4 by 2 in and be done with it ?
Not really, that would cause alignment problems and cause me to cut up more of the subfloor. I guess you guys don't like my 3" cuff idea? Why would that not work?- Lyptus
You can get 3x2" FERNCO fittings.
It might work.
Try the fit on a tee hub in the store before you buy.
Or,
Instead of my repair couplings, just use two FERNCO fittings in thier place. Simplifies the fix somewhat, but you will need to support the pipe/tee between the two fittings.It may want to sag a little since you are just holding it together and up with big old rubber bans.
You could use Mitchelin bands, which are like Fernco but have a full metal sleave around them. They do not slide all the way onto a pipe because they have an internal stop. The trick to getting them in place as a repair coupling is to slide the band and clamps off the rubber sleave and then roll the sleave back on itself like folding down a pair of socks. The internal stop means that the pipe needs to be about 1/8-3/16" shorter than the original on each end to get it back in place. It might take an extra set of hands to hold things in place while you roll the sleave back over the pipe. Then just slide the bands and clamps back over the sleave and tighten everything up. The metal wrap will be stiff enough to keep the pipe with the tee from sagging.
We use them all the time with CI and CI/PVC repairs.
Thank you all for your help. Following up on the last suggestion, I found on Fernco's website a specific coupling that joins sockets to pipes, e.g., it transitions from a 2.25" inner diameter to a 1.9" inner diameter. I'll order one of those and use it to straddle the joint.Since the pipe will not be under pressure, I'm going to give this a try.Thanks again,
Lyptus
i have not read any other answers BUT my plumber just started using this new (to us) tool that cuts pipe out of a fitting..self centering and just drills the pipe out of the fitting..think it cost like $15 for each one you have to buy one for each size pipe... looks kinda like a paint mixer that fits on a drill but it has a cutter...
very cool tool
p
Any ideas of what that type of tool might be called or where it is sold?- Lyptus
i know they have them at ferguson (sp) which is our local plumbing supply house...
have no idea what they are called but i'll check into it for u
p
Here is one:
http://www.plumbingsupply.com/pvcsaver.html
Thanks for the link. The RamBit for $25.00 would probably due the trick. Has anyone used these economy bits with success?I'm still waffling, however, as to whether I really need to ream out the old pipe. While I agree that a 3/8" to 1/2" nub is not much glue surface, I'm guessing that it is probably sufficient- especially with a fernco fitting keeping the joint snug and tight. The joint will not be under pressure. From what you all have said, every fix option introduces potential problems such as those discussed with the repair couplings. As for the vent issue, I'm almost positive that the 4" pipe is vented through the roof. I see a 4" vertical spur going to the roof- so I'm guessing that is a vent. If it is, then is there anything additional needed?Lastly, it seems I'll also need to put together a copper "L" shaped connection to link my tub faucet to the new mixing valve. I've never done any soldering but it doesn't appear that difficult. I was looking at the BernzOmatic torch kits at the local home supply center. They have a propane kit and a MAPP gas kit. I don't plan on doing a lot of soldering in the future but I also don't want to waste money on a low quality tool. Any recommendations? Most of the soldering I can do in the garage but the final joint will have to be soldered in place, about 1" from the drywall in my bathroom. Do I need to put some fire resistant material between the joint and the drywall or just be cautious? If a fire resistant material is needed, what is it and where can I get it? Thanks,
Lyptushas its drawbacks, including the repair couplings. inch
The bigger question is what will get damaged if your 3/8 to 1/2" nub glue joint fails? PVC sockets seem to have a slight taper... dry fit a fitting to pipe. It goes on easy at first, then progressively gets more difficult to jam the two pieces together dry.
There's no pressure in your pipe, but it still has water in it.
I belive Fernco couplings are never supposed to be sealed away in a wall- there must be an access panel. Those couplings with the SS bands are rated to be buried in a wall without access panels.
Nothing wrong with the Bernz O Matic stuff, but I don't like the new Fat Boy line (bigger diameter tanks)... spark ignition is nice. Plain old propane will do the job if your jobs are limited to 1" and smaller. Cheaper torch bodies will not work well out of the vertical position.
If you use a valve with 1/2" NPT inlets, always solder a piece of pipe to the adapter, then screw it in. Never solder on the valve- you will damage it.
Drywall is flameproof- studs arent. A ceramic cloth is available at the big box, and it will last longer if you wet it. A sheet metal deflector also works. The typical 1/2 to 1/2 copper pipe solder joint should not take more than about 10 seconds to make and maybe an inch of solder. If you take longer and burn the flux off (green flame) you will have a leak as none of the solder will stick.
Silver bearing plumbers solder (not to be confused with brazing alloy) costs a little more, but it has better melting properties and a plastic phase that non-silver bearing solder lacks. The joints are stronger and it is much less prone to pinhole leaks. It also requires a little more heat, but still doable with propane.
$.02 please :)
Thanks for the advice. The Fernco fitting is just for added precaution, I plan to glue the joint first using lots of glue. Also- I plan to cut about a quarter inch off the end of the coupling to make for a snugger fit to the 3/8” nub. I’m still considering reaming out the old pipe but I worry about damaging the inside of the 4” to 2” connector in the process, resulting in a glue joint that is potentially less strong than gluing to the 3/8” nub.- Lyptus
Those socket savers at the top of the page look good.
I bought an economy model like the one at the bottom of the page. Tried it on a 3" hub and almost broke my wrist when I got a little out of square to the hub, and did bend the shaft on it. Could be just me, but I wouldn't want to use that thing overhead going horizontal into a pipe.
The models at the top look like they could do it though.