I’ve had a customer request to replace some missing cedar sidewall shingles. seems pretty straight forward. Is there anything I should be thinking about?
I have a narrow crown stapler, which I would like to use. then I guess spots where I have to tuck under I would simply face nail the shingle that overlaps.
right?
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Replies
First you need to spend a frustrating couple of hours pulling the old ones out with a shingle ripper, a two pound hammer, flat pry bar, needle nose pliers, channelocks, long recip saw blade and a large stock of patience.
And have fun with it!
Ron
I havn't lookd at the job yet, but if the they are missing, why do I gotta pull them out?
seriously though, I guess you're saying some will be broken and I will have to pull some out. View Image View Image
There's a little trick to nailing the last shingles so you don't have to face nail them.
Fit the shingle, but let it hang 1/2" to 1" below the course line. Nail it right below the course butts above it. You should just miss the shingles above. Toe the nails in on a bit of an angle.
Then use a block of wood to drive the shingle up the rest of the way.
Viola- no exposed fasteners.
Shep.....that is CooOL!!!!
send that into tips and tricks. View Image View Image
My dad showed me that trick 30+ years ago.
I think its already been in tips and tricks, but I don't remember.
I see a lot of tips there that I think everyone knows- I could have contributed a number of times, but I guess I think that if I know something, it can't be too much of a secret.
Wrong.
Narrow crown is the worst fastener you can use for cedar. Be VERY careful about depth settings so it does not crease or damage the wood fiber.
And when you get to sliding up under, use a 3d fine nail. Drive the shingle to about 1/4" below where it will end up, then drive the nail immediately below the covering course, upward at an angle 'till it is set, then tap the but until your shingle is where it needs to be. The small nail will bend up and the head will be hidden like magic.
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I've heard some guys use staplers on sidewall shingles.
I've never used an air tool yet for side wall shingles. I've only worked on shingles once years ago, and hand nailed it all. But I've got air, and lots of guns now. Stick nailers, coil nailer, 7/16 th sheathing stapler, 23g 18g 16g and 15g brad/pin nailers,and the 1/4" crown stapler. figured something out of the lot should work. and I've heard some guys use the crown stapler? But what do I know, I've never tried it.
what would you use for an airtool? I'm not looking for an excuse to buy another airtool - so I don't want to buy one.
would you just stick to hand nailing? View Image View Image
Narrow crown staples work great for sidewall shingles. We do it all the time. If you're concerned about overdriving you can depth adjust and finish them by hand, but even that is usually not necessary.
We use galvanized staples with WRC but of course, stainless would be "better". Me? I'll save the stainless for the exposed fasteners and stick with galvys for blind nailing applications. Torn off tons of 100 year old shingles nailed with galvys - no problem with the fasteners in my opinion. Huck said it first. I just agreed with him.
Thanks jim, Piffin had me worried. I think he is right in his concern, but it is based on over driven staples. I will give it a try. View Image View Image
Piffin and Mike Smith also expressed concerns in the past that repairs to stapled sidewall shingles are very difficult compared to nailed ones.
I could see that View Image View Image
gonna be pretty hard to use your new nailing trick on a crown staple, narrow or wide. :)
Since this is a repair/patch job I'd go with the traditional method, like Jim B. said, he's pulled off lots of 100 yr. old shingles that had the fasteners still in good shape!
and as someone else pointed out, doing any repairs to crown fastened shingles could be a royal pain in the azz!!
I happen to think the crown fastener is more likely to create splitting problems than you might think. The proper/recommended technique for fastening sidewall shingles is max. 2 nails per shingle, spaced about 1"- 2" from each edge, depending on the width of the shingle (2" from edge on wider shingles). I think a crown creates 4 points of potential splitting rather than the 2 the traditional method creates.
Geoff
"gonna be pretty hard to use your new nailing trick on a crown staple, narrow or wide. :)"
sorta figured to use nails for the " nailing" trick :) View Image View Image
Well, besides being a smart azz :).... I was just thinking if you're dragging hose around you probably wouldn't be dragging an extra pouch of hand nails around, you know....one or the other , not both.
Geoff
actually, my belt has more than one pouch. they made it that way so's that I could carry more than one kind of fastener.
My turn to be a smart azz ;)
seriously though, I totally see your point. I also agree that stapled shingles would be harder to replace, as nailed shingles you can split off whereas stapled, the crown will always be left to hold a piece of the shingle.
as far as the split point, I would say that the 18g staple, even though you have twice as many points as the nail, it is a thinner gauge than the nail so the 4 points may be less likely to split than the 2 points of a thicker gauge nail. I think the problem with staples would be if they get over driven.
sounds like you havn't tried using staples, and are going by theory. And I think you talk about some valid points. I've only used nails in the past, never tried staples, so I am going by theroretical assumtions as well. I wouldn't mind forming an opinion based on experience, now that I've confirmed that there are guys who have success with it.
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Edited 7/1/2007 11:04 am by alrightythen
I have tried staples, and I have seen a ot of stapled jobs with the staples breaking right through the grain.To be fair, I think a job CAN be done well either way, but more copmmonly, the guys I see using the staples are less disccerning and conscientious - more greedy for production speeed, and the jobs in my experience have been more the apt complexes and condos where the GC is looking more for the cheapest bid and fast production scchedule, while more of the custom jobs using craftsmen are either hand nailed or placed carefully adjusted staples.Mike smith has a gun or two he recommends for nails in ext trim with adjustable tip tha works for him. Can't recal if it is a bostich or an hitachi
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I could totally see that being the case, with guys just plugging staples in and not caring how they are set.
any idea what type of gun? I have the Hitachi 15g finish nailer. the nails for that gun are different then say the bostitch nails that are square and have a small head. The Hitachi nails are round with a clipped nail head that is a bit bigger. would he be using something like that? or would it be something more along the lines of like a roofing nailer? View Image View Image
Coil nailer I think, definitely not a finish gun.I hate to speak too much more on this, ccuase I could be wrong, but my memory is for a bostich n66 or n66c
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galv. staples are a bad idea with red cedar, at least where I am , on L I,
they rust out in a few years easy.
I've seen roofs, its a real shame, somtimes close to the (salt) water,
or a few miles away
(lotta money for good shingles right? )
They just end up on the lawn after every wind storm.
The oils in the cedar wreak havoc on that thin cheap electro-plated
junk.
Even have to be careful not to use the mech. galv. "shingle nails"
We use SS medium crown staples or "Maze" hot dipped only, and
small headed 1 3/4" shake nails for those spots you must face nail.
thnks for the info...good to know
View Image View Image
we use sidewall coilnailers... N63, N64 or our N66 (bostich )
for WC we use 3.5 or 4d HD , & SS for the face nails
for RC we use 5d or 6d HD, & SS for the face nail.. if we can't get true HD we use SS for everythingMike Smith Rhode Island : Design / Build / Repair / Restore
I'm pretty sure Mike Guertin uses plastic nails for sidewall shingles. At least he recommends them at the JLCLive! shows. Haven't tried those yet, has anyone else?Huck said it first. I just agreed with him.
I admit to being a dinosaur.Hand nailing for me.
I let one of my subs use a wide crown
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I can see where a guy using a stapler and is over driving would create a big problem of creating a break point for the shingle.
as mentioned, I have heard before about guys using the crown stapler with good results. And it sounds like from what Jim describes, like anything, there is a technique.
my thinking is that staples have a thin gauge compared to a nail, and are less likely to split the shingle with the actual leg of the staple. where you would get a problem would be with the crown of the staple being over driven.
my wide crown stapler is way to powerful to be worth trying, I have much better depth control with the narrow crown.
I think it will be worth a try.
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Edited 6/30/2007 7:31 pm by alrightythen