Retiree needs advice on house foundation
I just retired and I need to put up a simple, inexpensive live-in workshop on some farmland in Pennsylvania. I don’t have a wife 🙂 so it does not need to be fancy.
My thought is to get a contractor to pour a 18×60 cement slab foundation, install a wet wall (kitchen on one side, bathroom on the other) and put up the frame of the house, including the roof frame. I would then finish the rest myself. The roof and siding would be metal roofing material – it goes up fast and lasts forever.
Is a cement slab the most cost-effective way, or should I specify a perimeter foundation and wooden floor with a crawl space?
Thanks!
Paul
Replies
There's no right/best - just competing factors.
I prefer a wood floor to concrete slab for comfort - a concrete slab is too tough on the feet legs for my money.
OTOH, I _think_ a hydronic heating system works better in a slab, and they are really comfortable.
What part of central PA?
I used to live in Herndon, near selinsgrove...
"Ask not what the world needs. Ask what makes you come alive... then go do it. Because what the world needs is people who have come alive."
Howard Thurman
http://rjw-progressive.blogspot.com/
My farm is near Hughsville, which is east of Williamsport. Sure, I'd prefer wood over concrete, but cost is the issue here, and I'm looking for the most inexpensive alternative.
Paul
you are asking a bunch of carpenters about concrete floor, what type answer you think you going get
What makes you think this place is all carpenters?There are builders, electricians, plumbers, painters, some concrete guys, a rocket scientist or two, at least one Librarian.....my answer to him is that which is best depends on soils types and ground water levels.But to fit his concerns, I think probably a monolithic FPSF, all steel building for the envelope, and build the living quarters into one end of it, with the plumbing wall between apartment and the shop, so no plumbing is on an outside wall, apt to freeze.
Welcome to the Taunton University of Knowledge FHB Campus at Breaktime. where ... Excellence is its own reward!
Just want to tell you about countryplans.com They are a bunch of great people over there doing just what you want to do, build your own little place without a big mortgage...There are people there from engineers,architects,concrete guys, master craftsmen, steel workers, you name it and the whole mantra is "No one knows more than all of us together".... Check out the forum - really helpful people and lots of pictures and info..
Good Luck, and hope to see ya over there
Edited 7/22/2009 9:20 pm ET by secordpd
I apologize if I've got you wrong, but you do just have three posts and that sounds a lot like an ad for a profit making site.
I don't have an opinion on whether he was spamming or not, but on first glance, that looks like a pretty decent site and forum.
Welcome to the Taunton University of Knowledge FHB Campus at Breaktime. where ... Excellence is its own reward!
The only reason I only have 3 posts is because I'm learning and come here for info from the guys who do it everyday. I don't have much first hand info, (only what I've read or researched), so not much to contribute. I have subscribed to FH for several years, thirsty for knowledge and ideas.I lost a good paying job a few years ago and now have decided to try and build as debt free as possible. I'm in the process of building a 12x18 screen porch on my home now and next year plan to build a 'post & beam' type great room.The reason I mentioned countryplans is because FH actually wrote an article in their magazine about a house built by the owner,"Building Our First House on a $125,000 Budget" (Featured in Fine Homebuilding)
Shawn & Jamies posts on County plans
http://countryplans.com/smf/index.php?topic=6626.0
Their posts on Fine Homebuilding
https://www.finehomebuilding.com/item/4436/from-washington-to-maine-building-a-house-for-the-first-timeA lot of the people at country plans are in the planning or beginning building stage, and so am I (but all stages of building are on forum). On country plans there are lots of plans for sale(reasonably priced & very adaptable) but you do not have to purchase them to get help on the forums from the all the laymen & craftsmen there.And they are very down to earth, and not almighty about lay people doing their own work.... I know I'll get slack about that comment, but you know as well as I that some of the guys here make fun of us 'grasshoppers' (from Kung Fu) lol :)Just check it out, John Raabe is the main guy, but lots of nice guys, like Glenn, Mountain Don, Scott, and peg88, a master craftman that builds Fine Homes on the San Juan Islands of Washington state. They are just like breaktime guys - in fact some of you probably know each other.....
I build my house on a $49,000 budget and that included land and septic tank
ah jeez young grasshopper...don't let "fingersandtoes" set ya back on yer heels. His number of posts and his birthyear differ by less than 10, as it is!
"I'm a work in progress; still learning every day!"
I know what I'm having for dinner.
http://www.crowbusters.com/recipes.htm
Edited 7/24/2009 5:41 pm ET by fingersandtoes
"no worries" as my Kiwi and Aussie mates would say...
TGIF!
"I'm a work in progress; still learning every day!"
No worries indeed. The Pacific Northwest crows are small and tender!
I apologize unreservedly. I'm a bit touchy as I have seen sites inundated by posters flogging their products under the guise of being forum participants. Good luck with your project and I will certainly check out the Countryplans.
No problem fingersandtoes, I'm just as leary as you about spammers & junk sites, in fact I went to a site the other day on the request of someone, it was a diy solar panel site, and it was a pain trying to get out of it.... Damn they are tricky...
If crawl spaces aren't done right they can be troublesome. If you don't need the height, then I'd go with a slab. Build footings and frost walls first, then a slab within with 1" foam or so around the perimeter as a thermal break between the foundation wall and the slab.
I built a 20 x 30 foot shop attached to my house some years ago. It had radiant floor heat, which was great for the shop. I even installed dust collection duct below the slab to the table saw location so I didn't have to run it overhead or trip over it. (Power for the saw, too.)
I think the myth about wood floors being better than concrete is bogus. Unless undersized joists are used there is no springiness in a wood floor, and both wood and concrete are both so much harder than the insole of a shoe that there would be no difference in cushioning. I think the problem that many people seem to have with concrete is more with the high friction that grabs the shoe as one moves around on the floor, compared with the smooth starting and stopping the feet have on a wooden floor.
By the way, may I recommend the ceiling in the shop be higher than 8 feet. It's nice to be able to flip over a board without whacking the lights. And a comfortably wide door to the shop.
"Is a cement slab the most cost-effective way?"
If that is your only question the answer is 'yes' - by far. It will be much less expensive to do a turned-down slab than it will be to do footings, a foundation wall and floor framing.
<eta> - I would suggest more like 20 x 54 (same SF) - personally I think the 18 is a little narrow for an efficient shop.
Jeff
Edited 7/23/2009 1:10 am ET by Jeff_Clarke
18 is narrow for a lot of things, living quarters included.
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What Jeff Clark said. I did a monolithic slab for my small shop building. Makes for a single pour, which saves money because you only have one delivery day. I think you spend a bit more on concrete volume, but you achieve savings in forming labor and delivery costs.
With care, you can insulate these slabs for hydronic heating.
Good luck,
Scott.
As Piffin said, do some research on Frost Protected Shallow Footing slabs. You can Google that. The idea is that money is saved on the foundation as the concrete or masonry doesn't have to extend all the way down to the frost line. Rather the concrete slab is floating on a well drained bed of gravel, etc. In order for these to work the building has to be heated.
Also, for the most efficient construction think in multiples of 4' - like 20x48 or 24x40 etc.
Also, as mentioned above concrete floors can be hard on old feet and legs - like mine :-). One of the things my company does is build unassisted senior living buildings. My boss has told me that "the senior residents" who live on the first floor (concrete) complain about the hard floors and it's effect on their bodies. Therefore we put thicker carpet/pad on first floors to mitigate this a little. Of course the accessible units still get the very thin carpet.
My thought was that eventually I would cover the concrete floor with a grid of 1"x"2" wood strips, fill the spaces with rigid urethane, then lay tounge and groove plywood over that for a floor. That gives me a warm wood floor in the future, with immediate livability right now.
Paul
note: my floor are concrete slab, I,m within twenty miles of gulf of mexico. my slab get cold in winter
>eventually I would cover the concrete floor with a grid of 1"x"2" wood strips, fill the spaces with rigid urethane, then lay tounge and groove plywood over that for a floor. That gives me a warm wood floor in the future, with immediate livability right now.
There's a big decision there - that would pretty much wipe out the radiant concrete floor idea, although I suppose you could then put radiant tubing under the plywood & switch the connections from the concrete to the new tubing.
If you insulate under the slab (which you should do regardless, IMHO), then you probably wouldn't need to insulate on top of the slab when putting a wood floor on it.
It has been awhile since I priced out subfloor and your dimensions are not great (if you made it 20x60 you'd be using the same amount of subfloor), but I'd think it would be worth the $500 or so now to have the floor you are planning on. You will spend more than that on rugs, rubber pads, and heat with a concrete floor in the winter.
I'm missing CloudHidden right now - he could tell you why a dome house is the best thing for your situation :)
Hi workalone,
18' x 60'........is that what fits your lot, your work needs etc.......what brought you to those dimensions in particular?
If those are general dimensions then I have one suggestion, if they're fixed I have another.
Any particular views you'd enjoy taking advanatage of for the next multi-years? Would the importance of those views be from the shop during good weather or from a small eating area within the efficiency area?
Do you need to drive straight into the shop or could the entry roll up door be on the side or rear? Can the shop sit sideways on the land, etc.?
I think one of the things to do here is get the design laid out before you go too far but you may already have that lined up.....as far as floor material choice for a live in shop....I'd use an insulated concrete slab.....go ahead and run hydronic heating tubes in the floor even if it's not in the immediate budget. You can later hook it to a gas fired boiler or outdoor wood heated boiler....oughta be some good firewood somewhere on the farm for free. For the shop area I'd simply seal it, maybe a nice multi fleck epoxy floor before it gets dirty or greasy. For the living area I'd do the same floor coating.....just carry it right on through and get carpet remnants, cut them to fit general walk areas, have them bound and 8 lb foam adhered on the back. That'll keep them from slipping and make for very nice cushion to the feet. After they've aged a few years, do new ones all over again and move the old ones to the shop in front of work benches.
One idea is to frame the whole ceiling in as a cathedral, then box in the living area with a flat ceiling....use the area above the living quarters to store lumber & "stuff" which will be accessible directly from the shop.
Pedro the Mule - Ready to help where I can
Edited 7/23/2009 10:03 am ET by PedroTheMule
Pedo,
Thanks for your thoughts. I've worked out the details pretty much. The grand plan is to have a live-in workshop, then eventually move the workshop offsite and convert the space to live-in.
Paul
18' seems a little narrow.
"Put your creed in your deed." Emerson
"When asked if you can do something, tell'em "Why certainly I can", then get busy and find a way to do it." T. Roosevelt
Someone asked why my house is only 18 feet wide.
Long, narrow homes have the advantage of creating separate private environments. A bedroom at one end is isolated from the living area at the other. Frank Lyod Wright's smaller Usonian houses were designed that way.
Lots of good advice here already. I agree that a turned down slab is the most economical way to build, as long as the soil and water table allow it. Even those problems can be mitigated by proper site preparation.
I also agree that walking/standing on concrete is more tiring to the legs than a typical wooden floor so if it was me, I might put a wooden floor on top of a concrete slab, in the shop area.
I'd also consider using rubber pads over concrete in the high traffic areas. Such pads are commonly found in shops and other places where workers stand on concrete all day. Supermarket cashiers come to mind.
Hi Paul, I find slabs are a bit hard on the back for general living conditions. Wood frames floors have more give and therefore less impact is transferred to the back while walking. Good luck, Jay
Paul, 18'-0x60-0' is an unusual dimension for a shop or a home. The length I can see but 18'-0 wide is very narrow,especially for the shop.Have you ever been in a metal roof building when it rains? Noisy as hell. I don't know what you're requirements are but I suggest you do a temporary layout with dry lines for the 18-0 width,you may want to widen it to at least 22'-0.
As far as the foundation goes ,the cheapest would be a crawl space and wood frame floors. This would be fine ,in my opinion better than a slab but not as nice as a full basement. Personally I would have a full basement under the house portion and a crawl space under the shop. You could have a slab under the shop if you do not object to walking on concrete floors as you work.
mike
"the cheapest would be a crawl space and wood frame floors."I don't know how you can make that statement without knowing local prices of materials, climate, and soils types as well as ground water conditions for his site.For instance, price of a placed stem wall can vary wildly from one region of the country to another.
his climate might require digging deeply for the footer of a stemwall vs. a slab might require extensive soil replacement to support a monolithic slab.
If he has groundwater close to the surface, it would keep a crawlspace flooded unless he does extensive drainage work.
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Edited 7/24/2009 10:09 am ET by Piffin
Thanks for taking that one on, Paul.
That's a healthy reminder to me, not to let #### pass as though it were good advice.
here a slab on grade for typical house runs about $2500, my house on stem wall ran $5000
That's gotta be crete work only, not site work, right?
Welcome to the Taunton University of Knowledge FHB Campus at Breaktime. where ... Excellence is its own reward!
crete, site, building, electircal, drywall, metal roof, everything to move in
I was replying to your earlier post of 2500 and 5000 for the foundation
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oh, yes, eveything concrete site labor
but think about it, we live on sand
I did a fairly in-depth cost analysis of building on crawl vs slab for a neighborhood I was building in. The houses were mostly ~1700 sq ft 2 story with a 2 car garage so the building foot prints were around 1100 sq ft. What I found was that the price difference between mono-slabs and crawl spaces was that the CS was ~$6000 more expensive. That was allowing $1k to build a compacted dirt pad for the monoslab. The $1k would cover the pad construction for a fairly flat lot. The more topology the lot has, that $1k price goes up fast. So, the closer I got to the the extra $6k the less feasible the mono slab was. This is also climate dependant.
My numbers agree with other builders as I have seen a $6k or 6.5k premimum for CS on their price lists.
So, for our climate where footer depth are only 12" meaning that the slab edge is a total of 20", monolsabs are cheaper than CS - for fairly flat lots. Two keys to successful monoslab construction is proper pad construction (soil compaction) & lot grading and getting the house up above grade. Really, for monoslabs, the best way here is just to trench your footings ~12" and place your 4" gravel and 4" concrete on the compacted ground. That gets you up 8" above grade which satisfies code requirements.
Grading of single lots can get more expensive as you get hiw tith mobilization fees for heavy equipment.
For deeper frostlines and slopeed lots, at some point making slab edges thicker than 20", say 24" or 30" start to make stacking up block more cost effective. Stemwall slabs fall in the middle of CS and mono-slab houses price wise. Stemwall slabs are good for lots with some slope or where deeper footers are required, but at some point FPSF gets more cost effective.
Around here we don't do FPSF because the frost line just isn't very deep - if at all.
Here, monoslabs rule for starter homes as the buyers don't seem to value the wood floor CS so much and for the $6k premium they would much rather get some extra sq footage. Personally I hate slab houses but I have to build what people will buy and pay for.
CS rules for mid to upper priced homes with a few basements here and there. Of course up north basements are gonna rule because the footers are so deep anyway.
Edited 7/26/2009 8:01 am ET by Matt
So much of what you said is good explanation of what I keep repeating on this subject - that it depends...Only way to know is to run the hard numbers for his site, his builder and his area
Welcome to the Taunton University of Knowledge FHB Campus at Breaktime. where ... Excellence is its own reward!
Hey Matt, how are you insulating your monoslabs? More people over here are wanting walkout basements... which is good because there's no more flat lots<G>Turned down slabs also work nicely for garage fronts... no center piers to get whacked LOLhttp://www.tvwsolar.com
We'll have a kid
Or maybe we'll rent one
He's got to be straight
We don't want a bent one
He'll drink his baby brew
From a big brass cup
Someday he may be president
If things loosen up
>> how are you insulating your monoslabs << Have you seen the new code book on that? In full force as 7/1/09. There is a detail back in the appendixes that changes everything. They want 24" of R-10 (I think) insulation to go down the outside perimeter and out. It has to be covered with some kind of parge or hard coat stucco.
BTW - How far are you from Pittsboro? I'm starting a project in a neighborhood called Powell Place and I'll be there for at least 4 months.
I've seen the new code... the foundation we've got is under the old code, but we're going to insulate per new. I just haven't seen a really nice way to finish one off.We're working about 15 min north of Pittsboro, off Lamont Norwood. When are you starting? I'll be there for at least 6 months<G>http://www.tvwsolar.com
We'll have a kid
Or maybe we'll rent one
He's got to be straight
We don't want a bent one
He'll drink his baby brew
From a big brass cup
Someday he may be president
If things loosen up
I've already started but I'm not there every day yet. The other day I saw a barbucue place on 15-501 maybe someplace a little south of Farrington. Looked like it might be a good lunch place. Know which one I'm talking about?
That's Allen & Sons... it is good. The hush puppies will fall out of the bottom of the bag before you get to the car<G>There's a Mexican place in Cole Park (farther north on 15-501) that's good and cheap, if you get to roaming.Let me know, be nice to finally meet you LOLhttp://www.tvwsolar.com
We'll have a kid
Or maybe we'll rent one
He's got to be straight
We don't want a bent one
He'll drink his baby brew
From a big brass cup
Someday he may be president
If things loosen up
Your answer "It depends" really is the only sensible one. I have done semi-detached units where changing slope and soils within the site made one side slab and the other crawlspace.
This is very like the debate over the cost of one vs. two storey buildings. Too many variables. It depends.
so,Do you prefer redheads or blondes?
Welcome to the Taunton University of Knowledge FHB Campus at Breaktime. where ... Excellence is its own reward!
"What I found was that the price difference between mono-slabs and crawl spaces was that the CS was ~$6000 more expensive."
That sounds about right to me Matt.
Jeff
Edited 7/27/2009 7:52 am ET by Jeff_Clarke
I'm retired as you are and have a basement workshop. I'd guess that you, like me, will spend very little time in your shop in the summer. Therefore I'm thinking you should build a full and insulated basement, easy for your woodstove to heat in winter, and use that as the workshop. So now you can make it considerably shorter and use the ground level as living quarters. You no longer need the building to be so long so maybe 35 or 40' is now more than enough. You might bite the bullet and have the basement work done and still be able to complete the rest of the work alone.
I find that I never get in the shop except for emergency repair jobs in the summer because there's too much going on outside. Your farm will no doubt keep you busy in the summers too. Maybe you can even have a walkout basement, if not possible at least an outside entrance to get the big stuff in.
There are other advantages too such as easier plumbing, electric and all utilities. Not to mention lasting value.
I can attest to the satisfaction in my own shop when the weather nears 20º below and I can poke around with a t-shirt and realize that with the shop that warm the furnace can take it a little easier.
Waiting for winter with a grin, Mesic
Regarding efficient construction, I don't know if this has been covered, but think about this:
A 18'x60' building gives 1080 sq ft and has 156' of exterior wall.
A 24'x45' building gives 1080 sq ft and has 138' of exterior wall.
So, the second scenario has 18 less lin feet of wall to side, sheath and insulate, and 18 less ft of heat loss wall. Also possibly 18 less feet of gutters and 18 less feet of exterior cladding to maintain.
To be fair, when framing the 24' wide building if you are stick framing the roof, you may need an interior load bearing wall. If it is trussed, it doesn't matter. Also sq footages of roof change as the wider buildings require higher roofs for the same size pitch (roof slope).
To take it one step further, a 32'x36' building has 1152 sq ft and 136' of exterior wall - the least amount - and gives you some extra sq ft. Further it uses the 4' modular dimension meaning less sheathing, sheetrock, and potentially siding wasted. So the 32x36 gives you your least cost per sq ft. - again assuming a trussed roof.
Conversely a 8'x135' building has 286' of exterior wall for the same 1080 sq ft.
The point being that building square buildings can be more efficient - not discounting various methods of construction and other considerations.
Of course site conditions,lot shape and aesthetics often dictate building shape.
BTW - regarding a basement, IMO - if unfinished, it just ends up being a poorly lit area that ends up holding a bunch of stuff you don't need anyway and is potentially damp. So, although the cost per sq ft is less, the quality of the living space is less too.
Edited 7/27/2009 8:11 am ET by Matt
The point being that building square buildings can be more efficient - not discounting various methods of construction and other considerations.
True, but I like the design of my house. Ultimately, I want the living room to have an entire wall of glass - about 22 feet. The south and west walls of the living room will have slots cut into the walls in various places. Into each slot I'll place glass prisms and bottles filled with colored water. As the sun hits the slots, the living room will be filled with a rainbow of colors that move and change as the sun moves across the sky.
Paul
true enough, light plays a big part in the way a house "feels".
Even the big track builders install larger windows than minimum to let more light in. From a builder or RE agent's perspective, the saying is "light sells".
I just noticed that Powell Place is across from Lowe's... man, you are one lucky doode<G>http://www.tvwsolar.com
We'll have a kid
Or maybe we'll rent one
He's got to be straight
We don't want a bent one
He'll drink his baby brew
From a big brass cup
Someday he may be president
If things loosen up
Yea - it will be sweeeeeet! Often I hit Lowes on the way home or on the way to work but this site I can go almost anytime. I got a co credit card. This time I can almost see it from my work site - actually I could see it if there weren't some trees in the way...
Some time ago Imerc said something similar to "if it ain't on the truck we don't need it" I don't remember if that meant tools or materials or either/both, but I was a little shocked. Us "city guys" are spoiled.... People in rural areas often just have to make due... or is it "make do"??? :-)
I'd have to have a semi to have everything I "need"... but talking about location, you've got a brewery right across the street, too!http://www.tvwsolar.com
We'll have a kid
Or maybe we'll rent one
He's got to be straight
We don't want a bent one
He'll drink his baby brew
From a big brass cup
Someday he may be president
If things loosen up
I sent you an E-mail.
"The south and west walls of the living room will have slots cut into the walls in various places. Into each slot I'll place glass prisms and bottles filled with colored water. As the sun hits the slots, the living room will be filled with a rainbow of colors that move and change as the sun moves across the sky."
Thanks. That is the first description of any project here in a long time that made me want to spend time in the space.
I built "Morton Building Kits" a 40 x 40 two story "polebarn" in Ohio with "turned down slab and ten years later I built a similar building 30 ft x 60 ft with turned down slab. First floor to bottom of trusses needs to be 12 ft with a 12 x 12 roll up door on one end. Increments of 12 ft seem to work best for purlins and steel. I insulated both of these buildings and was / am happy with both, but the 30 ft x 60 ft is more efficient for a wood working shop ( with a drafting area/kitchen and toilet in the end where all of the hand work and assembly tables are. Machines are in the 1st half where the large door facilitates unloading. I also work alone. Conduit s are run under slab to machines and at each "pole" post Ii have a "quad 115/20 box and beneath it a single 220v/20amp box. I keep all machines on slab and installed 18 two tube flourescent light fixtures on the bottom of the trusses with a bank of six separate switches so that I only light what i need to. In both cases I installed heat pump/ air handler above trusses and ran duct to blow down into shop. Comfortable and doesn't cost an arm and leg to operate. ( In Ohio I also had a small wood stove in the office/kitchen area). One of my buddies in Ohio built similar building with a steel frame, but I didn't have help to handle those pieces. Costs turned out similar though, but I can make modifications as needed with wood by myself.
Good luck
good point on the conduit for power placement with slab on grade shop
Welcome to the Taunton University of Knowledge FHB Campus at Breaktime. where ... Excellence is its own reward!