Retrofitting a roof with an extended rake/gable overhang
I wanted to get some input on retrofitting a roof with an extended rake/gable overhang.
A little background: I’m about the replace the roof and want to upgrade the trim/fascia, gutters, soffit, etc. The existing rake trim appears to be 1x wrapped in white coil stock and nailed to a spacer to form a receiver for the vinyl. The fascia is the same white coil stock nailed directly to the sub-fascia, and bent under to provide a lip to support the vinyl soffit panels, where J-channel has been nailed into the side wall to support the other side of it. I don’t need to tell you what these machinations look like.
The house basically has 3 roof planes, 2 formed by the gabled roof on the main house, and the 3rd is a shed roof on the first floor family room. The main house is a 4:12 pitch, and the family room is an unfortunate 2.6:12 pitch. Two of the three planes are vaulted ceilings below.
So I was all ready with the idea I was going to notch the gable end rafter 1.5×3.5 for my 2×4 lookouts. But as I started to confirm my assumptions about the actual framing I’ve come to find out there technically is no rafter there. What they’ve done is brought the 2×4 studs all the way up to the roof deck and capped them with a 2×4 plate. The first rafter actually sits just inside, and looks to be toe-nailed to, the studs. I’ve also noticed they weren’t consistent about it. Of the 5 out of 6 rakes I’ve been able to inspect, the end rafter sits on top of the studs is 3 cases, but along side in the other 2. Those two are both on vaulted ceilings, but one of the other 3 is too. That kind of explains why my wall to ceiling joint tape keeps tearing – but I digress.
So I guess the first question is if this really is a problem? And if not, would I just cut 1.5” off the 2×4 studs and drop the plate? Then notch the rafter and tie my lookouts back to the 2nd rafter? The house has a 12” soffit so I’m looking to do an 8” overhang on the rake, so the lookouts don’t really need to be that long. I didn’t mind the idea of notching the rafter when I assumed the wall studs were supporting it, but in these two cases it’s only nailed to the side – and technically I can’t even confirm that’s consistently true. I’m wondering if there are other techniques that can be used here.
Thanks,
-Ted-
Replies
Retrofitting roof gables overhangs - in the middle of it.
I'm in the middle of renovating a 1960 brick rambler to look like a cedar sided cottage in the woods. When we bought it, the windows and trim on the gable ends had been badly damaged by the rain, but the ones under the 18" overhangs were in great shape. We decided to add 18" overhangs to the garage gable ends as well, and then to the 34' breezeway connecting them. Each had its own challenges.
The main house has regular rafters with collar ties. We cantilevered a 2x10 notched out under the existing 2x6 ridge board an added 2x10 supports attached to the top plates (snugged up under the rafter tails but just above the soffits), giving us two solid supports for each of two 2x4 "ladders" we built on the ground, and then hoisted to lay on top of the cantelevered 2x10s. The house side of the ladder was, of course, attached to the original rake.
The breezeway was a breeze, as we simply removed the soffit/ceiling and nailed an additional 2x4 rafter to to each existing 2x4 rafter, only 18" longer. As you may have figured out by now, the breezeway did not have gable ends.
The garage's challenge was the trusses. We made a notch to accommodate a flat 2x4 every 24" and butted the cantelevered 2x4 up against the next 24" oc truss, nailing into the end of the 2x4 from the back side of the truss. We the braced the exterior end of each flat 2x4 with another 2x4 on edge, more for visual heft than for support. The new 1x6 cedar fascia ties in the corners of the overhang.
It is all looking pretty good. We are just doing this on weekends, but are almost ready for the new roof and the soffits. I could send photos, but its night time.
If you had more than an 8"
If you had more than an 8" soffit I'd say it would require something more, but in your case I'd not cut in lookouts at all, but rather build a "ladder" for the framing of the overhang and make sure it's butted tight to the wall framing when putting on the plywood on top. It's important that everything is butted up tight and I wouldn't do this with green material since any shrinkage of the ladder will allow it to droop a bit. Of course it also depends on having everything attached securely so it's one of the instances that I'll glue with polyurethane construction adhesive and use 2" deck screws on the ply to minimize any movement over time. Screwing the ladder to the wall framing also minimizes any small gaps between the two - of course you'll have to nail in addition to the screws to pass most framing inspections since most deck screws aren't load rated.
Thanks for the input. I've actually considered this approach but I'm afraid that I'd be gambeling on it not becoming another headache in years to come. I know this techique is not uncommon, though with varying degrees of success depending on how appropriate it was for the given set of specifications and how well its done. Not that it woulden't work but I'm leaning twards methods that are most likely to yield the best long term stability, even if that comes at a higher cost in T&M.
Many building inspectors would not allow a top plate to be cut without the normal simpson strap over the cut to keep the plate from spreading, not that it would do that with a ply layer over it, but nontheless you'd have a butchered up single top plate with large plates you can't hardly nail through - that's not a great situation since any uneven pressures from the bottom plate will telegraph through the roof without something to spread out the pressures, which would normally not be a problem with a normal plate and rafter over it.
If it were my house I'd use ladders as I suggested - they are only as good as you make them, but done well they will last indefinitely on a short soffit such as yours. However if it was a project for a client as part of a remodel I'd not hesitate to chop the wall down to where it should have been in the first place along with a double top plate and rafter over that. Less than a days work for one person.
The drywall cracks you are speaking of are fairly common on vaults, although your oddball framing is probably no more odd than how the rafter was attached to the wall - not so good.
Whitout pictures I should watch the words I use. The "cracks" at the rake wall/celing joint aren't really a crack. What it is, is evidence that the celing panel is moving independently of the wall panel. You can see by how the tape was embeded, and then torn out. Basically the wall has moved outward by about 0.25 - 0.325" with respect to the celing panel, and the wall panel has moved down the roof slope by about the same amount. Of course its debatable which one really moved, but that's the relitive distance. Its only happening on the one side where the rake studs would be face nailed to the rafter. The other side where the rafter is on top of a single top plate there is no movement at all.
Thanks for the input. This would be the simpelest appraoch in terms of time and complexity, but it makes me very uncomfortable.
I'd have to fault myself for not really going into my concerns and priorities. Many corners were cut when this house was built just 20 years ago. I've been in a constant battle with things failing prematurely so one big priority it to un-cut the corners as I repair damage.
One problem that I'm having with the vaulted ceilings is movement at the ceiling to rake wall joint. I've had to retape these three times in ten years, and right now it looks like I never did it. So, I know that I already have movement there and what I don't want to do is cut out anything that's going to just further weaken it. I'm really most interested in strengthening this area even if it means doing a lot more work as long as the finished product is a much more stable and I can have that much less to have to worry about.
Also, related to this, in this photo, on the left the rafter sits atop a plate, on the right the studs are nailed to the rafter face. Can anyone tell me why one particular method is used over the other. I'm sure its obvious to those that know, but I don't currently count myself as one of them.
The one is a 2.6:12 shed roof with a vaulted ceiling from outside wall all the way up to the ledger.
The other is a 4:12 gable with a structural ridge using 3 verticle center supports and one at each end, with no collar ties... plus 1 notched, verticle, 2x4, 24" in from one end where they "spliced" the ridge board. The 2nd floor vault end at a knee wall a few feet short of the ridge.
The movement is in the celing panels relitive to the rake wall panels. The wall would apprear to be moing outward and down the roof slope, or another way to look at it, since wall and ceiling form a 90 degree angle (never mind the roof pitch), the wall moved out and to the right... or the ceiling moved in and to the left. It does not appear seasonal.