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I think that as long as the education establishment wants to define shop classes as the apprenticeship for industry they will fail. Schools will never have the money to keep up with how fast the machinery and technology change.
They can teach good work and thought habits, discipline, “sticktoitiveness”, and basics, like drafting, shop math, and science applicable to shops. If a graduate has good work habits, most employers would be happy to supply the specific craft knowledge.
Unfortunately, the education establishment has embraced “computer literacy” rather than any sensible definition of literacy, so shop graduates may not be able to read a ruler, or a book, or a plan, or the instruction manual, or anything else. Prospective employers don’t want to be involved in basic literacy training–they don’t know how and don’t have the time.
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I've been reading and thinking about the revival of traditional wood shops in middle and public high schools. We all know about the lack of 'good help', and now it seems that some players in the furniture and tool industries are finally looking to lend a hand.
I'll be working on a professional paper for my masters in Wood Construction and Design on bringing back woodworking and trade education as a required course in middle and high schools. This post is the first of several and I just wanted to get any and all feedback from the knowledgeable folks at this site. Please sound off, both positive and negative, to help me brainstorm this idea. Thanks.
Pounding Nails Until the Bell Rings:
Sather Ekblad
*Sather; (nice to hear from you again). I'll tell you what you are up against (speaking as an ex-instructor): overheads who think it's okay to teach people woodworking skills (like ripping a board), by computer simulation, and then send them off to the wars. One example of the kind of thinking proposed by the people who make the decisions. that was an American program I'm desribing, BTW, and not an exaggeration. I can't remember which college program it was, but there were many more climbing aboard.
*Bringing back shop would certainly get my vote. When I went to school shop was manditory from grade 6 through grade 9 and optional after that ('course, it was also boys-only, the girls took home-ec; which wasn't fair then and wouldn't be tolerated now). We were all trained in the basics of woodworking, machining, and drafting.
*Hello Sather,Jim Blodgett and I were discussing this recently. I was amazed that they had even been taken out of the schools...any wonder you aren't getting much interest in young people taking up the trade. If they don't get a taste for it at school, then there isn't a lot of opportunity outside of school for it. Is the lack of interest due to the push for a College education? This was something I really noticed in my recent sojourn. An almost expected right, of going on to a higher education. ( I'm not against that, just trying to fathom the lack of interest in the trades by young people )
*Sather, It needs to be brought back into the schools, and it needs to be taught by people who have been in the trades many years.I think the biggest problem in reinstateing this type of program would be in getting the schoolboards,and alumni to understand that it's not a downgrade for students to choose this type of career over high tech curriculums, and that there is a good future, and demand for those that should choose it.
*At the elementry and even secondary education levels wood shop is not about learning a trade. It is about the self esteem that comes from making something yourself and perhaps identifying an aptitude for working with your hands. How can you know what you want to be when you have no measure of what you can really do?
*Long before school shop classes I had hands on experience in woodworking and construction because carpentry was my grandfather's profession and my father's avocation.My high school was well known as a college prep school but we still had woodshop, metalshop, drafting and mandatory PE and swimming.Now it seems the almighty dollar dictates what will and will not be offered, not what would allow a well rounded approach to future career choices. Or maybe it's a PC thing.I don't really know who decides which class offerings go by the wayside but I can't see it being because shop would take up time needed for more important classes.I eventually went to college and I know that most of my classmates, who were in my shop, drafting, PE classes and on the varsity sports teams with me also went on to college and to rewarding careers. I also know that some of my college classmates are now contractors, too. I wonder where they got the idea.Just a thought for you tool-poor craftsmen.When they stopped offering the various shop classes they didn't just get rid of the tools. They all went into the school boards' storage facilities. I know someone who bought a cabinet saw for $100, replaced a $30 bearing and is as happy as can be with the deal. He says there are more tools gathering dust and rust with no plans to put them back into the classroom. Our tax dollars at work.Are they any educators out there with a different or collateral view?
*I think the problem you'll run into, at least in the US, is liability. Let's face it, some people are not meant to be around tools. By making it mandatory, you are forcing some of those people into a risk that is just begging for an accident. With class sizes of 30-40 in many school districts, it is impossible to keep an eye on everybody. Plus we all know that teenagers are deaf when you start talking about danger. The alternative is a demonstration where the students observe - but they can get that from watching PBS, and it doesn't teach their hands how to do it. I think the best approach is to make any technical class mandatory - be it home-ec, woodworking, metal shop, auto shop. As long as a student picks one of these and tries it, then they get hooked, if that is their destiny.
*Part of the demise here was technical high-schools. They used to screen kids into 3 streams: accedemic, commercial, and technical. Unfortunately, the tech schools became the repository for the lowest 25 percentile, so no parent would willingly permit their child to go to a tech school unless they had to. Later this became viewed as ghettoizing; so, in the spirit of political correctness, the lower 25 now sit in accademic classrooms dragging the entire education process to a crawl. Another major problem in Ontario comes from conflicts among the teachers' unions and the trade unions. There's a myth that shop was killed by costs and fear of litigation; but, local industry, I think including the Toronto Homebuilders' Association and the Ontario Manufacturers' Association had offered to sponsor the return of shop as the only way to offset labour shortages. The odd thing was that it all crashed to halt while the only 'labour' government in Ontario history were in power - go figure.
*Sather:Interesting subject -- here are some of my opinions.It is my understanding that only about 30% of all high school graduates go on to higher ed (university or community colleges) but high school academic programs are almost entirely now directed towards college prep. Not only are there few shop (vocational education) programs there are also few business courses (unless you consider economics, business).If there were to be any mandatory technical education course, I would opt for drafting. At least at the end of a year the students would understand how to read a ruler. From my experience and conversations with business owners seeking entry level employees find that most of these people do not know how to read a tape measure.I do not favor vocational education being taught by someone with only a degree in vocational education; but likewise I do not favor the instructors being old-timers with years of trade experience. Technology is changing so rapidly that years of experience do not necessarily prepare those with trade experience to address the complexity of the new technologies. The last thing that we need is students learning antiquated practices.I whole heartedly agree with Steve regarding the satisfaction of makings something and developing an aptitude. However satisfaction and aptitude do not necessarily help develop the theoretical base necessary to enter the many and multiple technologies involving wood utilization.The best program I have heard of exists at Fox Valley Technical College (Community) in Osh Kosh WI. I believe that somewhere around 95% of the graduates find immediate employment in industry. I think rather than investing in a generalist education at the high school level, we should encourage the expansion of similar programs. It would be nice if local wood industries would sponsor and support such programs but they generally don't. Uneducated workers generally work for less money and the way manufacturing is evolving -- industry does not want skilled worker with a comprehensive knowledge but instead opts for replaceable machine operators or assemblers.Education is now controlled by educators -- primarily those than were educated as teachers. Their comprehension of technical, trade, manual skills is generally nil. And what they don't understand, they cannot realistically develop or initiate. Hell most consumers cannot appreciate the skills needed to actually complete sophisticated woodworking -- whether it be roof framing or furniture making. Just look at Norm Abrams -- he can make a piece of furniture in less than 1/2 an hour. And it only takes a few 1/2 hour segments on This Old House to create a dream home from a wreck.I recently applied for a high school shop teaching position and was turned down. Thankfully. After an interview that dealt mostly with philosophy of education, they gave me a tour of the shop. All the tools were 40 - 50 years old and looked very wore out. I opened a tool chest labeled carving tools and found lots of antique, poorly sharpened carpenters' gouges. There were also no desks, no blackboard and no computers in the shop. The people who interviewed me were very concerned about how I would maintain discipline -- I guess it was reasonable because without proper tools and equipment, I would have found it very difficult to teach them anything applicable to current industry practices.This is a very complex issue and the problems are very diverse. There is no simple solution; I think that different solutions should be develop and could possible encompass work-study, formal apprenticeships, community college programs as well as private trade schools. Otherwise it will be strictly OTJ. But with regard to apprenticeships, I think that the "students" should pay for the first year of the apprenticeship because teaching time is not necessarily production time.
*I got a degree in Industrial Arts and Tech plus a teaching certificate after a few years of owning a woodworking business and was primed to turn raw recruits into empowered, three-dimensional thinkers! Wanted especially to encourage HS girls to take these classes; when i did my student teaching in '84, only 2 of 150 students were female, a long time after Title IX, yet both were in the top 5% of ability. The programs in my area were being shut down left and right, and rightly so, as at least 75% of the teachers were of the "If you can't do, teach" variety. They'd slouched into teaching as a fallback position. Class sizes were laughable, with 4-5 students having to sit on the floor because there were not enough desks; the shared texts were falling apart too. The kids were required to pass written safety tests with 100% proficiency to cover the instructor's butt if there were an accident. Fully 25% of my freshman students were functionally illiterate (the worst ratio of four grades), which created an interesting problem of riding herd on the ones who remained in the classroom while also supervising the students who graduated to the shop itself.When i interviewed for one job, i was asked about my knowledge of robotics, although there was no robotics lab available or planned. It seemed they were seduced by technology--if it couldn't be taught by or involve a computer somehow, what possible future could there be for it? I asked the panel how many of them had toilets compared to how many owned a robot and if they knew what plumbers got per hour. I suggested field trips to job sites and was told it couldn't be done. Have guest architects, builders, hardware store owners come in to talk, videotape it. Nope. I suggested giving the students a "punch list" of maintenance items on the school buildings, real-world work. They said the Unions would scream. I suggested involving the unions as mentors. No takers. I think Shop class existed primarily for storing students who were unable to adjust. Most of the assignments my master teacher ordered me to have the kids do was garbage work, ugly book racks and junk. I substituted for years and saw no improvement in the quality of teachers nor willingness to think outside the box. The adult ed. courses in the shops have been shut down here because of liability issues, though to my knowledge no one has actually been hurt. The exception to this was a HS shop opened up to adults of all ages who built the first hand-carved carousel in decades in the US (Missoula, MT), but that had city support behind it and a charismatic wacko carver/carousel nut way out in front.(Now in city park and knock-you-on-your-fanny wunnerful!)There's a series of national minimums tests one must take to get a certificate. They measure language, science skills, knowledge in one's area. In the specific skills category were questions such as name recognition of John Makepeace, at the expense of more pertinent questions. The test looked like somebody got hold of an old magazine and made it up out of that.My suggestions for reviving shop in the public schools would be to fire the bad teachers and get some GOOD ones, not just green ones for cheap, and not just old fogies with too many stories to tell; involve girls in the process; bring in outside sources to lecture; give them real work to do, projects involving ordering material, scheduling, manufacture, and sales; don't TALK safety, SHOW it; use the apprenticeship idea and school-to-work; and show what good use can be made of what is at hand, not just what can be dreamed up in computer-land. Even if they don't go on to be professional contractors or technologists, they'll surely have a better appreciation for the work of those who do and be perhaps more able to discuss a project and more willing to pay for it.Wow! Haven't thought about this for ages! Thanks!
*Okay, so who's John Makepeace ?
*Prominent English furniture designer; runs his own school. What a stupid question to have on a test.
*But it fits in with typical "educator" thinking these days. Quick story: several years ago one of my staff was attending a parent-teacher interview concerning his 7-year old in grade 2. They got down the report card as far as "numeracy" when he asked "well, what exactly is included in numeracy ?". The teacher stamered for a bit, then stated that this would be too complicated for them to understand. Now, it's funny enough when a teacher thinks that grade 2 subject material is too complicated for an adult to figure out; but, my staffer had a PhD in mathematics and his wife was a chartered accountant with an MBA.
*Wow Phill, you must have some smart woodwrights up there in Unionville.
*Perhaps, but this was a reference to my corporate career.
*I think that as long as the education establishment wants to define shop classes as the apprenticeship for industry they will fail. Schools will never have the money to keep up with how fast the machinery and technology change.They can teach good work and thought habits, discipline, "sticktoitiveness", and basics, like drafting, shop math, and science applicable to shops. If a graduate has good work habits, most employers would be happy to supply the specific craft knowledge.Unfortunately, the education establishment has embraced "computer literacy" rather than any sensible definition of literacy, so shop graduates may not be able to read a ruler, or a book, or a plan, or the instruction manual, or anything else. Prospective employers don't want to be involved in basic literacy training--they don't know how and don't have the time.
*Some problems,Woodshop has a bad rep. It'll take a long time to overcome.Kids in high school may not be ready for the concept of quality in work.Until the work is valued more by today's society (and I believe it finally is) scarcity of qualified workers can only HELP the industry.The industry in general needs to understand that the scarcity of qualified workers is an excellent time to adjust prices UPWARD.Every cloud has a silver lining. Make people pay for your time. The money is certainly out there.Bill
*i Kids in high school may not be ready for the concept of quality in work.I respectfully disagree. Teachers had to stay for an hour after the kids were let out, dunno why, but i used the time to work on my own projects. As time went by, many students came to work after-hours, because the atmosphere was not full of the BS like taking attendance, testing. Eventually, i had a "class" after the final period as large as any during the regular hours, from all the grades. Some of these kids were ornery as hell in regular class, but after-hours was a privilege and they treated it as such. My gut feeling is they ache to be expected to be better, and be respected.i Until the work is valued more by today's society (and I believe it finally is) scarcity of qualified workers can only HELP the industry. i The industry in general needs to understand that the scarcity of qualified workers is an excellent time to adjust prices UPWARD.I think they'll go to WalMart/Home Depot. Not everyone wants an expensive remedy for a common product. As far as a definition of "qualified workers" goes, i submit that a person who, for whatever reason, is shorted in the math/language skills dept. can still earn his/her keep with manual skills. I think shop classes are absolutely the ideal formative ground for teaching abstract reasoning, quality, ambition, and passion for creating. I'd like a person to work for me who can figure the volume of a sphere and discuss Kant, but more than anything i want that person on time and willing. Illiteracy doesn't make a person useless or dumb, although they may operate just fine at a lower level. What is so great about high prices for stuff? The end of that argument is that hardly anyone will be able to afford anything because there will be so little of it to go around, but a lot of people will be idle. I prefer a model where everyone's working, and we can all afford our goodies because our taxes aren't supporting someone who'd rather be making sawdust if she only had a chance...
*SG, YOU STUPID ****,I am kidding, but I thought I should start my response to your respectful disagreement in the customary way.I refer to not being able to understand the concept of quality based on myself at that age. I was not ready. I wanted to drink beer, get la*d, and have a good time (still want the last 2, but not every 3 seconds). Obviously there are kids in school that are ready. I shouldn't have generalized.The rest of the stuff we'll have to respectfully disagree on, because I am obviously right and you are wrong. As the matter of fact I am shocked by your wrongitude. What are you, a stinking pinko? Again, I jest. But really, what are you, a stinking pinko?The product I'm talking about can't be purchased at walmart or home depot and the market for the product to which I refer would not seek it there. I think there is a HUGE demand for handmade cabinetry and furniture out there. The buyers are not the normal Joe though. They are execs that generally have money to burn (maybe your market is different though). A lot of them DON'T EVEN KNOW THEY CAN BUY HAND MADE FURNITURE LOCALLY! By the way, what do you make that can be purchased at Walmart?As far as Kant is concerned, I prefer a person that can discuss the Simpsons. I also don't care if they get to work on time as long as they get the job done. There is no right or wrong here, just different personality types. High prices aren't great (did I say high prices are great? you should run for office making statements like that..), but have you seen the price of a pickup recently? I have found I much prefer high prices charged by ME rather than someone else. That means I make the same money for working less. That isn't being lazy, or a robber baron, but it gives me choices.For instance, if you are saying you want to have lower prices so you can do good for the huddled masses, fine. Charge the execs big bucks, then charge the average needy person less than you normally would. That's called selective gougeing (sp?). It's the American Way as long as you don't discriminate.This makes no one idle. It has to do with the strength of the economy. It might even allow the average small business person a little nest egg for the next recession or worse. If you make too much money, donate it to your favorite charity!As far as taxes are concerned, there really is not much magic to be worked any more. They just are. Regardless of taxes, the more the profit, the more you make after taxes.Go back to Russia where ya belong, I'm gettin my handgun out dad burn it, ya got my feathers ruffled puttin down the US of A the way ya did mutter mumble mumble GOD BLESS AMERICA! AND LEAVE MY MOM'S ARMY BOOTS OUT OF IT!Wishing you the first of an endless number of wonderful weekends, Bill
*Wow.... Great replies and here I sit even more confused and dismayed than ever. Sometimes I think I have the right idea to stick it our in building when I hear the political horror stories of the education profession. Thanks for all the replies...may have to change the focus of my paper, a little naive in my ideals and belief in common sense. Need some time think. Thanks and keep it coming. drinking beer on the porch....SE
*Selective gouging...as long as you do it with HUMANITY...and yes, it did make for a wonderful weekend...but i digress.I recently went to someone's home to look over a built-in project. I began talking full-extension slides and dovetails ("No, really, i have a router, it's not that hard!") at which point the dollar signs began flipping through their eyes and they pushed my design books back across the table. I was speaking with a couple, DINKS, and yet their minds were still on getting something THIS BIG made at the lowest price, leaving money over for the boat payment. For every $3000 bed i make when price is not the driving force, there are tens of offers to duplicate the particle board/melamine stuff, convincing me that MOST people have no idea of the difference, and if they hear it, they've no urge to shell out extra money if it doesn't SHOW. Home Depot stock is a lot healthier than John Ruskin's philosophy in most venues.Your point about market is well-taken, however. When i do West Coast art fairs, i see lots of interest in doing first-rate commission work. My area, SW MT, has an upper economic strata, but it is much thinner; i therefore see no HUGE demand for handmade cabinetry and furniture. There is also the provincial idea here that buying something from Pennsylvania i preferable to patronizing any of the local stellar woodworkers. The joke among artists in Missoula is that you can't get your record played in your own hometown.Want to hear something REALLY sad? I make $4 (wholesale) hair barrettes from my scraps, and i make $120 an hour doing it, farming it out, while custom work is so fraught with working out new details each time that i swear the help makes more than i do. I could be a hair-barrette mogul and lose my mind and self-respect, or i can make just enough of 'em to subsidize the custom work and keep me in premium tofu. If i were smart, i'd gather up the off-cuts, ship 'em to Taiwan, get 'em made, ship 'em back and stay home and watch the X-Fi--er, Masterpiece Theatre.Sather asked if woodshop should be brougt back as a required course. Was it ever more than an elective? Was it a graduation requirement anywhere? Sather?As far as the drinking beer and getting lard goes, Bill--this is why we need to reach out to get girls in the shop: they are a good influence on you rustics. And if not, well, at least it's a handy arrangement the next time ya go looking to sharpen yer chisel.dumbstruck AND queueless--SG
*Tofu is toxic waste.ps. Excelent read, all.
*A little silken tofu spread on an uncooked brick o' ramen "cracker" sprinkled with seasoning packet? Man, you've never had it the way I can make it!!!
*EEEOOUUUUUU. Tofu. They should sell it in caulk cartridges.So, you admit to selectively gougeing (sp?) those that want to keep their hair in place. Those poor little girls. You are a vampire. A tip, look at the cars not the boats. Newer Lexus, Mercedes, Volvo, Audi (I'm missing some) oh yeah, Range Rover owners are not looking to pinch pennies. In fact a lot of them WANT to spend more than something is worth. It makes them feel more exclusive. Not only that, it's usually one of the spouses more than the other. Figure out which one likes to spend, and mention that it may cost more, but its quality, then wait to set the hook. It could be the market though. Ahhh. Getting lard. The good old days. I don't know why I was afraid to spell it out completely. What do girls have to do with it? Sharpening chisels? Huh?Continued good times, and hoping for good tofu (an oxymoron),Bill
*i A tip, look at the cars not the boatsI do art fairs for part of my income and the joke with artists is to look at the SHOES if you're trying to decide who's kicking tires--it's surprisingly accurate!
*Great! What should I look for? Birkenstocks?Bill
*Nah, the Birkie's are covered in BICYCLE grease, only half as many tires to even kick.No tennis shoes, not even clean ones. Leather, polished but not shiny. Women in pumps is a VERY good sign...and ties. They've come fresh from work and want to reward themselves...
*The best part of reading some threads is the little tidbits garnered....shoes...ties...cars...near the stream watching the flow,aj
*Aj,Isn't that the truth? Seems like it's always the little stuff that might be useful. I know I'll be looking at shoes for a while.. Be goodBill
*Here's another one: charm bracelets, plus or minus?
*here in RI... Voc-Ed is alive and well.. they regionalized about twenty years ago..39 cities and towns.. i THINK there are about 7 regional Voc-Eds...i'm familiar with 3 of them... i've worked with grads of Rogers, and was impressed with Coventry.. but the physical plant at Davies Voc. is to die for....not just carpentry either... auto / body repair, cosmetology, carpentry, culinary arts ... some very good programs...my lead man is in a Voc-ed degree program at RIC.. if he's the typical of the teachers going into the schools , we're in great shape......i would guess that all the urban areas have regional voc-ed.....b but hey, whadda i no ?
*Just guessing. A plus.Rich Beckman
*On a 12 year old or a 60 year old? Are you selling your hair thingies or furniture?Charmed,Bill
*"Sather asked if woodshop should be brougt back as a required course. Was it ever more than an elective? Was it a graduation requirement anywhere? Sather?"In Cape Breton, at least, a credit in "industrial arts" is required for graduation from Junior High(Grade 9). At our small local school, the only "shop" left is wood shop, so that's what constitutes the industrial arts credit. I've heard that our school principal has let it be known that once the ageing woodshop teacher retires, the program will go with him. Looks like I've got another fight on my hands to try to save it till my kids get there in 7 or 8 years.
*Gerry: I might have overstated when I said "requirement"....when I was in Junior High however everyone HAD to take Home Economics and Woodshop/Drafting...male and female, regardless of preferences, etc.. That was in ultra liberal, great schooling for everyone Minnesota so I might be in the minority. I'm still looking and finding out new things every day. Seems like the East is in the best shape (except for Canada...and they don't count) in terms of Voc-Ed. I just want to put the hands-on back into learning and have a desire to teach since no one ever really helped me out. I had to do tons of reading and sort of 'buck the system' to get to my present skill level...I just feel that if more people had some first hand knowledge we'd all be in better shape. But then I'm a romantic, a luddite of sorts, yadda yadda yadda. Thanks for all the replies.
*Minus. Charm bracelets are an indicator of having children, which is an indicator of a lack of diposable income. Now a Zuni silver-chased watchband is a horse of another color...To bring it back to the kids: craft kids are inordinately well-adjusted and smart, often home-schooled. From the beginning, they are part of a major undertaking: build a small city and fleece the tourists and locals in two to three days, leaving money only in the KOA campgrounds and gas stations, having brought organic lettuce from the home garden. They receive instruction in establishing a perimeter in ten minutes, electronic credit card transactions, breakdowns on the road, and the all-important sense of direction. They speak easily with adults, generally don't have a teenage crisis, and then they go on to take college coursework ending in "-ology". Haven't heard a single instance of one of them shooting anyone.Thought of another aspect of teaching I.A. and that is to make it interdenominational--i used to teach geography by bringing in exotic woods and a map of the world. Or history by relating how the railroads and steam helped decide the settlement of Montana wheat ranches. The math apps are easy to see. Industrial Arts can hang by itself or hang with the other, presently better-accepted subjects.