I have been lurking on this forum for months. 😉
My house is around 35 years old with an unfinished basement. Unfortunately, my house is wired with Aluminum. I would like to replace as much of the Aluminum wiring as I can while the basement ceiling is open.
My dilemma. How do I run new wire to the electrical boxes on the outside perimeter of the house and maintain the existing vapor barrier. On the two opposing sides of the house, the floor joists run parallel to the foundation walls. There are two floor joists (2×10) that rest on the exterior foundation wall and a five inch cavity between the floor two floor joists. I cannot drill up from the basement unless I hack away (make a big hole) in the inside floor joist.
One way to run the wires would be to open up a hole in the gyproc (take out a 16×16 section), drill a hole through the 2×4 sole plate, install a new sealed box, run the wires, replace the insulation, replace the vapor barrier and then repatch the wall. That would be a lot of patching.
I tried the following that did not work very well. I disconnected the power and removed the existing electrical box. I then tried to use a flexible bit to drill a hole through the 2×4 sole plate to get access to the basement. The existing electrical boxes sit around 15 inches from the floor. As much as I try the flexible bit wants to drift to the outside edge of the sole plate. I ended up with two holes to the exteriur of the house. Fortunately between the siding and the house that would be easy to patch up.
Another option would be to take out a big section out of one of the floor joists in the baseement and drill a hole up from the basement. I suppose this really is not a big problem structurally, but I really don’t like hacking away on the floor joists if there is a better solution. Just looks like poor workmanship to me. You know. Something that a Do It Your Selfer like me would do.
Is there a smarter way ?
What do people generally do when they are installing new electrical boxes in an exterior wall ? Or in my case, pulling new wire to replace existing Aluminum wires.
Replies
Can you take good aim and drill at an angle through the outer most floor joist and up through the bottom plate? Run your fish tape up through that hole and hook a hold of it from your box hole? Might require a decent long enough auger bit.
To get your target for the angle and location, draw your frame on some paper to scale. Cut a block you can use as a "guide", tack that to the joist and line up your drill/bit away from it.
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I will have to take a closer look at this option. I find auger bit drifts a bit more than I like when I drill into a board at an angle and when I am shooting at a blind target.
On the other two exterior walls, the joists are perpendicular to the foundation wall and are blocked between the joists. I had planned on removing a limited number of blocks , drilling from below the sole plate and replacing the blocks when I was finished. This is a good area to test things to see if I can get the angle right and maybe work out any kinks. (test things where I can see what I am doing)
Thanks for your input.
Albert
How well is the wire stapled to the studs? In my 1955 house, most of the original wiring I've worked with so far has not been stapled (I'm also rewiring my entire house). The garage was converted around 30 or 40 years ago, with aluminum wire, and in all but one place they only stapled right outside the outlet box. After removing the original box I was able to get up in there with a screwdriver and pry the staple out. Then I could (carefully) pull the new wire with the old. This worked surprisingly well. If your wire is stapled according to code you may have a tougher time though.
What's your attic like, can you run wire through there?
When you say flexible bit, do you mean one of those 12 in. attachments, or do you mean something like a D'versibit? (4-6 ft long bit specifically for this purpose).
What about a right angle drill with just a regular spade or auger bit?
Unfortunately for me, stapling the wires is one of the only things they did well. This house caught me completely off guard. My previous house in Calgary was custom built by the same builder. Shortly after I had renovated the prevous house that I owned in Calgary, I was transferred out of the city. That house was really well built. So, I incorreclty assumed that this house would be the same. A renovation that the previous owner did contributed to my problem.
Rewiring this house is not going to be easy. The house is a one and one half story house. Approximately 2600 ft square on the two floors plus an unfinished basement. Cathedral ceilings on both floors. Only the main bathroom upstairs has an attic. So the attic space is very limited. Maybe 150 to 200 square feet. And there currently is "no" access to the attic. The upstairs bedrooms , main bathroom and upstairs hallways all have cathedral ceilings So I have very limited access to any ceiling lights on the cathedral ceilings.
I had "no"experience with Aluminum wiring prior to buying this house. I got lots of bad advice. The kitchen was renovated about a year before I bought the house. The building inspector that I hired through my realtor told me that the kitchen was rewired with copper. As it turns out, only a small part was rewired with copper. There were several significant code violations including connecting aluminum wires directly to incorrect recepticles and leaving hidden junction boxes. I have removed three and disconnected a forth live hidden junction box. All the recepticles have now been pig tailed.
My plans are to leave the aluminum wires in the cathedral ceilings. Those wires will be very difficult to get access to and go mainly to the ceiling lights. I replaced the higher wattage light bulbs in the pot lights with 15 to 20 watt bulbs. I don't use the chandeliers in the dining room and the entrance area very much. I am assuming that as long as the lights are off then I don't have a problem. I guess I am also assuming that the power feeds into the switch first and then to the lights. I am trying to limit the current that travels through any remaining Aluminum wires. I am also trying to have "no" current running in any of the remaining Aluminum wires when the lights in the house is turned off.
I also removed the ceiling in the hallway in the main floor. This gives me access to all the joist space under the upstairs floor. But I will have another problem accessing the upstairs electrical recepticles on the exterior walls.
I can use any advice that anyone might have in dealing with vapor barriers and insulation on the exterior walls.
I also have Aluminum wires going to my upstairs clothes dryer. I haven't decided what to do about that or whether that is a big problem.
I will take a closer look to see if I can use your idea to use the existing Al wires to pull the new copper wires. My initial guess is that that could be a problem because of all the staples. A related problem is with the changes in code with respect to wire bundling. The new codes limit bundling.
I used a four (or is it five feet) long flexible Greenlee drill bit to try to drill through the sole plate on the exterior wall.
I have a Milwaukee Right Angle Hole Hawg and lots of auger bits. Great tool for drilling through studs and open floor joists. I suspect that this drill can do considerable personal damage if I sort of sleep on the switch.
I have "not" tried one of the smaller right angle drill attachments (Milwaukee makes one) with a shorter spade bit. Any thoughts on that one ?
Thanks for your comments. Any other advice would be appreciated.
just a thought on rewiring. i have a fishing stick.basiclly 3, 3' pcs of fishing rod that screw together. i like it much better than a fish tape. if you think you need it buy 2,lets you get way in there.
someone can give you the correct name for this.larry
ps ,going to follow your progress as i have a alum.wired house to deal with sometime. if the dryer is wired correctly,with big wire i think i'd leave it. seems like where alum fails at is at the small screw connections.if a man speaks in the forest,and there's not a woman to hear him,is he still wrong?
Albert,
Pull the baseboard, cut a hole in the rock and drill.
Pull the siding.
Fish wire from the attic, or through existing holes. Use small chain or fishsticks.
KK
Another great idea. This is embarrassing. Starring me right in the face. I think I might have read about that one before but obviously the idea did not sink in. For some reason I was thinking that that would only work on an interior wall.
Lets make sure I got this right. I remove the baseboard. Carefully remove the gyproc so as to minimize damage to the vapor barrior. Might even be able to lift up the vapor barrier. Drill as close to the sole plate as I can into the basement. Install a nail plate to protect the wires. Replace the vapor barrier. Replace the baseboard.
I have limited attic space. Less than 200 square feet on a 2600 Square foot one and one half story house.
I should also take another look to see how difficult it would be to remove exterior siding.
Thanks
http://www.mygreenlee.com/Products/main.shtml?greenlee_category_id=2&product_category=314&adodb_next_page=1&adodb_next_page=2&adodb_next_page=3&adodb_next_page=4&adodb_next_page=5&adodb_next_page=6&portalProcess_2=showGreenleeProductTemplate&upc_number=38350Have you tried the D’VersiBIT¯ Placement Tool. It helps arch the shaft of the bit to point it the direction you need, back towards you.It won't help if the bit drills/hits the joists below but should keep it from penetrating the exterior.TFB (Bill)
Yes I did. But that doesn't mean that I used it correctly.
The existing recepticle outlet box is about 15 inches from the floor. I jsut went back to the living room to see what I could have done wrong. I might give it another try. I think it would have worked if I was working with a normal switch box at the 3 feet level. Then I would have had better control in positioning the bit and operating the drill. But I did not want to drill a hole in the wall at the three foot level and puncture another hole into the vapor barrier.
Maybe I can get it to work with another set of hands.
If you used the greenlee bit, you probably can visualize what might have happened. My left hand was close to the floor attempting to control the position of the bit and my right hand was a the end of the drill (right hand behind my shoulder) trying to exert downward pressure on the bit and controlling the drill speed. It is possible that when I tried to exert pressure down on the bit that I inavertently pushed the bit outward to the exterior wall.
Well, I see lots of possibilites. I will give it another try. Thanks
Albert
I've had the same problem, even at 3-4 feet high. Since the box is only 15 inches off the ground, can you drop a 2x4 block (probably smaller) into the wall cavity, so when you insert/set the bit, it cant slip back against the exterior wall?Don't feel bad. I have a total of three holes in my drywall from my mis-aimed d'versibit (which as a percentage of the total number of holes I've drilled may not be that bad). Somehow they all ended up in closets so I got lucky.
Yes, I did the block trick. I had a scrap piece of 3x3 maple that I pre drilled. I got my 8 year old son to help me place the block in the hole. But you know what the attention span of an eight year old is.
I will give this another try this weekend when the light is better in the room.
You got the idea right. You can also notch the studs to run box to box. Thats how we do it for plaster walls.Hope you know about oxguard, proper twist connectors, pigtailing to unrated devices ect.KK
Is there any tricks to getting around the corners. I am just trying to think ahead to the problems that I am going to be confronted with when I get to the recepticles upstairs. I don't don't have an attic to work from.
Yes, I am "too" awares of the paste, connectors and copper pigtails. I was "spitting bullets" for a couple weeks. But that did not make the work go any faster. I did all my upstairs recepticles and hired an electrician to do most of the main floor. I hate to admit it, but even for a relatively simple task such as that, the electrician did the work about four times as fast as me. Must be all my coffee breaks. At least I don't have to pay myself travel time, overhead, a tool allowance or taxes.
There seems to be some controversy thou about how effective the pigtailing and marrett solution to connecting Al to Copper wires is. Jesse Aronstein in his paper, "Reducing the Fire Hazard in Aluminum Wired Homes." is now recommending a relatively new product called a AlumiConn connector. In Canada we use a different Marrett than the Ideal connector that is mentioned in Jesse Aronstein's paper.
A right angle drill head and a stubby bit. I have some screwpoint carbide turning bits, they look like a spade bit on steroids. Don't know correct name.Feed a single piece of wire through the hole and pull with it. Simpull wire is easier to pull also.KK