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Had/have a problem w/roof leak I assume where the roof of one room meets the side of the house. Ruined (soaked) the inside of the outer wall and a little bit of the adjoining walls & ceiling of a 1/2 bath # of yrs ago. Finally had whole roof taken off down to plywood and re-roofed about 5? yrs ago (would have to look it up) in conjunction w/other work. Waited a couple yrs to see if problem peristed – didn’t seem to. Everything got rock hard dry again. Never got the walls fixed (hus spent homeowners coverage on bills) Last yr, and this yr, especially, what w/ice dams in the gutters, solid ice about 3-4″ thick on the roof (that meets the house) from the gutters all the way up to the peak of the roof (maybe 10 ft?) we literally had water pouring down the inside of the outer wall. It’s wallpapered, but a large section – maybe 2’x2′ – of the drywall has sunk in. I think if the wallpaper wasn’t on, that section would have fallen behind. There’s a big fist-sized hole in the middle of the wall at the ceiling exposing the studs. Doesn’t look like any insulation’s back there. You can see the mold sometimes on the studs and you sure can smell it – even when it’s 35 degrees out, like now. Northeast lake area. The other 2 adjoining walls and the ceiling have gotten much worse. At one point the paint on the ceiling kinda ballooned out/bubbled up, and when I poked the saggy little pouch w/my finger, it cracked and water came out – about an eye cup amount. This bath is tiny -6 1/2’x40″ wall to wall, w/toilet and vanity sink only. It’s in a corner of the family room. An unheated 20x22ft. enclosed all-windowed patio adjoins the family room. Couple contractor guys said if we heated that room we wouldn’t have the problem anymore (it’s not year-round useable – has/would cost a fortune to heat – it has elec baseboard on a concrete slab w/indoor/outdoor carpeting)
Now the Q: How can we keep this area of the roof from ruining this 1/2 bath? No one seems to be able to find the source of the leak.
Years before having the roof torn off, it was tar patched a # of times in the valley (Not where it met the side of the house), because that’s where every roofing company said the problem was. And we had it done by at least 3 different companies (after we did call-backs on the others when it leaked again, so we tried someone else). Everyone, including the ins. adjuster, said with the amount of snow we had on the roof last winter (about 2+feet), and with the driving wind and rain of spring, there’s no way you can fix it for good. This winter we had the thick ice build-up on the roof and in the gutters (ice rises out of the gutters about 3 inches – solid, looks like a little glacier). In the meantime we’ve made at least 2 claims for it over the years, and I think if we made another, we’d get dropped. Everyone’s gutters here look the same, not just ours (except on the other side of the street, where the sunshine doesn’t seem to let the ice build up for some reason).
Sorry this is so long, but I tried to give as much info as possible. Any suggestions? Can send a scan of a pic if anyone would want it. (Pics worth 1000 words) Thanks s ton! Adrianne
Replies
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i (Pics worth 1000 words)
You said it. Start scanning and posting.
b : )
*We never put gutters on our houses in Alaska for this very reason. Ice buildup. Once it starts growing and pushing backwards, anything can happen.Also it can push it's way into your venta-ridge, melt, and run to the walls.
*Adrianne - Since your leak location is the outside wall parallel to the gutters (right?) you should check out the condition where the roof sheathing meets the soffit - a gap here can be fatal. On a "problem" roof you should have considered Ice and Water Shield underlayment at least at the leading 3' of roof (code in many areas) or even all the way up. It seals around nail holes (well, it's supposed to).You have to keep the roof surface as cold as possible - warm air leaks due to no / inadequate insulation will cause ice dams.As a temporary solution, buy a snow rake with an extension pole (I use one even though no problems) and pull off the snow after a big storm. It only takes a few minutes.Jeff
*Snow rake? I've thought about making something that might fit that moniker, but the thought always passed as soon as it warmed up (usually a couple of days here in Arkansas.) December's ice storm has made this more than the usual vaperous thought. That and watching icicles form on the soffit vents! And water dripping from them later! (Yes, I have gutters, and yes, when it snows and then the night-to-day temp range is 20 to 40 F they suck.) Where does one buy a snow rake? I was thinking PVC with a small piece of plywood on the end (maybe 6"x24"). What do they look like?
*What Jeff and Luka said, especially...
*Ken - I'll have to look to see where it's from, probably 'Brookstone' or 'Improvements' catalogs. White PVC blade, aluminum-braced with 4-section aluminum extension poles - the whole thing put together will reach about 20', albeit with a bit of bending. Easy to handle and store - the extensions have spring-loaded buttons/holes. About $40 if memory serves.Here's a link on ice dams with a description and here's one you can buy on-line (not the one I have).Jeff
*Seems like time to quit looking at the roof and gutters , and look in the attic.
*Spraying dyed water under pressure on the roof sometimes, and only sometimes, will locate the source of your leak. Starting from the gutters spray up about four feet on day one. Look inside the attic for leaks now and then tomorrow. Some leaks do not make themselves obvious immediately. The next day spray another four feet up the roof. Look now and then the next day. Dyed water is made by adding food coloring to a fertilizer container that is attached to your hose. Last leak discovered was indicated by a dyed water trail on a rafter seven feet away from the damage. The wicking action was not seen by two previous contractors. Good luck.
*If I understand correctly, this is a joint between wall and roof. I would pull back the siding, tear off the shingles and use a product called "Water and Ice shield" (or is it "Ice and Water Shield"?)made by a company named Grace. It's self-sealing roofing underlayment: basically really wide rubber tape. I would lap this up the wall a couple feet and consider using it on the entire roof, especially if the roof pitch is low. The nature of ice dams is to force water up under the shingles and siding where it can find its way into the house any number of ways. This provides a solid barrier that the water can't get past. It's a drastic solution considering that you had the roof done five years ago, but it sounds like you have a pretty drastic problem.
*Assuming that the roof is only leaking when you have ice dams (not in a summer rain), you need to insulate the ceiling - paying special attention to the area closest to the outside wall. Make sure you leave some form of a ventilation space just below the roof sheathing, then insulate (first choice would be cellulose and that will require putting the ceiling back up before insulating). It is very important to seal any and all openings in the ceiling (ie around lights, exhaust fans, etc.)Stop the excessive heat loss into the attic and that will reduce the size and intensity of the ice damming.Terry
*Thanks, Jeff. I swear I've never seen one of those things before, but it looks just like I thought it might. I wonder, does one do this roof snow raking before or after eating their grits?Thanks again!
*Hope this is posting as a reply, I only see "new message" box, not a "reply to message" box. To answer questions/comments: Okay, I looked it up, was done in July of '97. Contractor saw the bath walls/ceiling, said that rubber ice shield would take care of it, so he did use that. I think he also went up the side of the house where the roof meets, but I don't know how far. I have asbestos shingle siding and I think they cracked one in doing that. There's no attic above the patio, just the ceiling and whatever's above it, and there's no access to it, unless you make a hole in the ceiling. The family room has garage attic space above it. There are recessed lights in the fam room, but the kind that need 3"(?) clearance from insulation, and it's insulated up there (garage), at least where the lights are. There are 2 lights about a foot away from the common wall of the fam room/patio. This patio is an additon; the house was built in the late '60's and apparently this patio was added sometime in the 70's. Didn't ever have a problem until years after we lived here, but I couldn't tell you when I first noticed it, it's been going on so long now. Definitely at least 2-3 yrs before we got the roof redone. Could the recessed lights be playing a part somehow? So.....waited a year or 2 to see if the reroofing took care of the problem, and it seemed to. They used that rubber sheet stuff, 3'x66', all the way around that whole roof, which is 3-sided. I think they even went up the side of the house where the roof butts up, but I don't know how far. I have asbestos shingle siding and I think they broke one in doing that. Put alum apron & step flashing and stuff (can send a copy of their worksheet if anyone wants it - is that legal on the net?) Anyway, no leak when it rained, etc., at least the first 2 yrs. Then we got the huge snowstorm w/like 3 ft of snow and ice on the roof and it started again. I called the contractor back and he had a couple guys shovel the snow off and chop the ice off, which helped I guess. Said it was weather conditions, nothing he could do. Made a claim (again) and the ins. adjuster said the same thing, said it's not the contractor's fault, it's the weather. Of course I argued reroofing was supposed to FIX that, and it didn't, blah blah blah. This year, with the water running down the walls, my son went up and chopped the ice off that section from the peak/valley and where it butts up to the house all the way to the gutter, but he couldn't get it out of the gutter, afraid the whole thing would come down from the chopping. He did about a 4 ft wide area. No more running water on the walls, so it helped apparently a lot.So......we spent a bunch of money on the roof (they also fixed our front porch roof - this patio's in the back) and the problem keeps recurring, and everyone we've had here can't seem to help. Do we have to rip the inside ceiling off to see what's under there? Looks like the same kind of problem is happening on the OTHER side of the room on the same common wall. It's panelled, and I think I see what looks like the start of a hole at the ceiling line just like in the bathroom.Will send pics as soon as I can. Unfortunately this room's become the catch-all room. Every summer I clear it out and every winter it gets filled up with stuff again - son's apartment furn., my "projects", etc., so excuse the mess you'll see in the pics when I send them.Thanks a lot to all of you trying to help me. Adrianne
*TLE is right. You need to have someone look at your insulation and venting to address this problem. No roof system is designed to perform under water, which yours essentially is.
*Adrianne,This is not a roof problem, it's a heat loss problem. You are losing lots of heat through the roof and wall framing, it melts the snow, which refreezes, causes big ice dams, creating backups that no amount of ice and water sheild can prevent from eventually working into the roof/wall area. I can't seem to formulate a clear mental image of the structure from the many words you've used to describe the situation so far. Pix will help--of inside and out, and of precisely where those recessed cans are, which are probably a very big part of the problem. Get some pix up if you want more pointed analysis.STeve
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Had/have a problem w/roof leak I assume where the roof of one room meets the side of the house. Ruined (soaked) the inside of the outer wall and a little bit of the adjoining walls & ceiling of a 1/2 bath # of yrs ago. Finally had whole roof taken off down to plywood and re-roofed about 5? yrs ago (would have to look it up) in conjunction w/other work. Waited a couple yrs to see if problem peristed - didn't seem to. Everything got rock hard dry again. Never got the walls fixed (hus spent homeowners coverage on bills) Last yr, and this yr, especially, what w/ice dams in the gutters, solid ice about 3-4" thick on the roof (that meets the house) from the gutters all the way up to the peak of the roof (maybe 10 ft?) we literally had water pouring down the inside of the outer wall. It's wallpapered, but a large section - maybe 2'x2' - of the drywall has sunk in. I think if the wallpaper wasn't on, that section would have fallen behind. There's a big fist-sized hole in the middle of the wall at the ceiling exposing the studs. Doesn't look like any insulation's back there. You can see the mold sometimes on the studs and you sure can smell it - even when it's 35 degrees out, like now. Northeast lake area. The other 2 adjoining walls and the ceiling have gotten much worse. At one point the paint on the ceiling kinda ballooned out/bubbled up, and when I poked the saggy little pouch w/my finger, it cracked and water came out - about an eye cup amount. This bath is tiny -6 1/2'x40" wall to wall, w/toilet and vanity sink only. It's in a corner of the family room. An unheated 20x22ft. enclosed all-windowed patio adjoins the family room. Couple contractor guys said if we heated that room we wouldn't have the problem anymore (it's not year-round useable - has/would cost a fortune to heat - it has elec baseboard on a concrete slab w/indoor/outdoor carpeting)
Now the Q: How can we keep this area of the roof from ruining this 1/2 bath? No one seems to be able to find the source of the leak.
Years before having the roof torn off, it was tar patched a # of times in the valley (Not where it met the side of the house), because that's where every roofing company said the problem was. And we had it done by at least 3 different companies (after we did call-backs on the others when it leaked again, so we tried someone else). Everyone, including the ins. adjuster, said with the amount of snow we had on the roof last winter (about 2+feet), and with the driving wind and rain of spring, there's no way you can fix it for good. This winter we had the thick ice build-up on the roof and in the gutters (ice rises out of the gutters about 3 inches - solid, looks like a little glacier). In the meantime we've made at least 2 claims for it over the years, and I think if we made another, we'd get dropped. Everyone's gutters here look the same, not just ours (except on the other side of the street, where the sunshine doesn't seem to let the ice build up for some reason).
Sorry this is so long, but I tried to give as much info as possible. Any suggestions? Can send a scan of a pic if anyone would want it. (Pics worth 1000 words) Thanks s ton! Adrianne