Roof rebuild … problem with owner
I have recently completed a project for a guy where he had a 2/12 roof and I increased the pitch by building a new roof over the existing. The new roof is 6.5/12.<!—-> <!—-><!—->
The house is overall 24 X 42.<!—-><!—->
In the back of the house there is a picture window that is about 10′ wide and it appears that over the years, an insufficient header above that window has been failing enough to give a 3/4″ swale in the roof over the 10′ span.<!—-><!—->
My new roof framing follows the existing conditions and is straight or in plane as can can be… everywhere except over that swale where it broadcasts the 3/4″ swale.<!—-> <!—->
The roofer then roofed over the new roof assembly and in that area, allowed the drip edge to pull up and crimp on both sides of the swale, causing the defect to look rather amplified. The drip edge is actually crimped/bent sharply on both sides because the roofer pulled in too tight. This is causing the very bottom course of shingles to curl up, therefore causing the entire appearance of that section to be rather unsightly. <!—-><!—->
I explained the above to the customer and then he an I went on to the roof and pulled a string across so that I could show him that the actual deviance in the roof is only the ¾â€.<!—-><!—->
The customer contends that I should have cut my rafters a bit longer over the area to compensate for the drooping header. My feeling is that I would have been doing the wrong thing by adjusting the roof to fix a problem elsewhere that should be rectified in itself… furthermore, if I had done this and the header is later fixed, there would be a ¾â€ hump in the roof.<!—-><!—->
Another point is that the project was to increase the roof pitch and not fix the header situation yet the customer feels that I should have done so by adjusting my rafter length gradually over the area to compensate for a swale from 0†to ¾â€ and back to 0†over the ten feet.<!—-><!—->
When I told him that I feel I did the right thing and that the problem with the header needs to be addressed as a separate issue, he told me that he’ll have his roofer help him tear it out and he’ll do it the “right wayâ€, after which he’ll see me in court… he then told me to leave.<!—-><!—->
I subject this matter to a judgment of and by my peers here who are well versed in such affairs. Please let me know what you make of it.
Replies
Pete,
When I come across a situation like that in which I just did 2 months ago. I did an add-a-level on one side of the house and the other side of the house the roof was too low so the owner asked me to raise the pitch of the existing roof. So I walked on the roof and saw that the window header had sagged(which you could also see from the street) and I told him right then and there that there was a problem and it should be fixed now or I would have to screw around will all the rafter and string a line from one end of to the next and raise each rafter at the top to get it straight or just follow the sag and the new roof would look just as bad or fix it the right way first.
He told me to fix it the right way first. If you saw the roof had a sag in it from day one, I think you should've told him first so you wouldn't have this problem. You know that it should've been fixed so why not mention it to him before you did the job?
You know as well as I do there's always some kind of a header in a house that's undersized and is sagging especially when doing an add-a-level or what you did. With add-a-levels I just put flush headers on top of the plates and hang the joists and then the GC can go back and fix the header later.
In your case your putting new rafters on top of a sagging undersized header that should've been fixed first.
Sorry Pete but I think you should've fixed it before you added that roof. Following the existing when when there's a problem doesn't make it right for you to do the job.
Joe Carola
Edited 8/29/2005 6:47 pm ET by Framer
Sorry Pete but I think you should've fixed it before you added that roof.
I agree. At least, you should have added specific language to the contract. Something in writing that would CYA about the header situation.
Any before pictures? If you had some pics of a preexisting condition you would have a leg to stand on.
I can't even think of an easy solution.
like they used to say to Charlie the Tuna - Sorry Pete!
I'm thinking like Framewr here. I would have had to tell the HO before I started to do the work that he had a structural problem that needed correction. my concern would be that in addign the weight of another roof over the old, the sag would grow greater, faster, and possibly damage the glass or break seals in the window. He would have needed to make a choice to pay me for all of it or none of it.
To some degree you are right, that shimming is not the way to deal with it now, but replacing the header and jacking it straight from under neathe is. but it is sounding like you won't have the chance to do that now, Your chance was before starting on it when you focesed on the roof and not the overall problem.
When I see something wrong with ahhouse, I always ask myself WHY it is the way it is. If i cannot answer that for myself, I don't like to proceed. I like to fix the problem, not the symptom. One potential customer called me to look at their front door on an old castle type house. A four foot wide thick oak door was dragging on the threshold and was hard to open and close.
They'd already had another guy tell them that the foundation was settling and that it would take around 12 to 15 thousand to fix it, so they were calling me for a second opinion/estimate before plunking down that kind of money
I asked myself WHY the door was dragging instead of following the previous suggestion. I asked for some time alone with the patient and discovered that the top of the four hinges was barely held in place by the old screws. I drilled in some plugs set with glue, replaced the screws and used some coloured floor wax that matched the stain colour to buff up the door bottom, edges, and jamb.
Then, to be sure, I craweld down under to verify whether the sills and foundation had settled.
I fixed the right problem in two hours and had a lifelong loyalty from that customer. Always look a little deeper and focus on solving the real problem, Pete.
BTW, It takes a lot of cajonnes to bring yourself in on the carpet here like this. hope the people of Ohio appreciate that.
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Taunton University of Knowledge FHB Campus at Breaktime.
where ...
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I get the feeling you are still owed a final on this job. Had I seen the sag before I started the pitch increase I would have added the cost and fixed it. At this stage what will it take to "unsag" the affected area? can it be done in a day with out striping and rebuilding that section? Maybe install a beam above the saging section and lift it stright. You could go see the guy and tell him "Its bothering me the way it looks, I have to fix it!" . Sounds like it was a large job. Leaving it might you look bad and get bad words spread about your work. Fix it now and your the good guy!!
Pete
I did something very similar way back, luckily mine was on a 4 stall garage so it wasn't as big a deal.
Couldn't you offer to either pay or do the work yourself(provided they would let you) but not on the roof, but on the header? Maybe to late at this stage.
Maybe the good will towards fixing that problem would lessen the HO's foul disposition.
Doug
It sounds like you followed the contract to the letter, so you shouldn't have any problem with him claiming you didn't complete the work. But as others have said, it also sounds like you didn't recognize a latent problem and bring it to the HO's attention.
I agree that you should offer to fix it, at a reasonable cost.
"When asked if you can do something, tell'em "Why certainly I can", then get busy and find a way to do it." T. Roosevelt
Sorry guys, A little more info may be important here. The reason we designed and built the roof the way we did was because the customer did not want to disturb the existing walls or ceiling on the interior. The existing 2/12 roof rafters were also serving as the ceiling joists and had drywall affixed to them.
For me to fix the problem would have required interior modifications which the homeowner did not want. My only job was to design and build the roof system over the existing, the additional finishes were being contracted to others through the homeowner.
The H.O. noticed the sag prior to roofing the project (he was GC on the project... he is a flooring guy who tells me that he used to build homes).
One more note was that the sag was not noitceable before starting for two primary reasons. One, the back yard goes downhill and you couldn't see the shingles from the angle it was situated at. Secondly, there was an overhang of roof section over that area that was discovered to be rotten (full of carpenter ants) once the H.O. stripped back the roofing and he wanted me to cut it off. It was a flat section of roof that bumped out from the primary.
I was not aware of the sag until after the new frame job made it obvious and only at that point did I go inside and see the sagging window opening from inside. It had been sided outside with aluminum and that concealed the sag due to the sider having starightened out his runs when the siding was applied. Matter-of-fact, after noticing the sag the homeowner insisted it was something other that the header which I only now suspected. It took a trip inside the house to prove it to him because outside was no obvious traits other than the newly framed over-roof.
Mind you, this is a 3/4" swale over 10" on a nearly flat roof with two layers of shingles on it when we started. the swale only really exists near the fascia end of the roof and this is also where the bumped out flat roof existed which did not show a swale to my recollection.
http://www.peteforgovernor.com
One more note. During today's meeting with the H.O. I did offer to repair the header issue, from inside. It should not be that big of a deal to straighten the roof back out this way.
The H.O. refused stating that he didn't want the mess inside and that is why he didn't fix it earlier in the process.
He is sure that I should have built the roof to adjust for the swale. In my opinion that would have led to more problems than it would have fixed.
http://www.peteforgovernor.com
All this time spent on BT wasted. You never learned how to CYA. How are you going to make it as a politician?<G>
So you pointed out the problem to the guy during construction, offered to fix it, he declined, another contractor did sloppy work which exacerbated the appearance problem, and he's threatening to sue you? Is that a fair summation? If so, I think you've done all you can do. Even if you had extended the joists, that would only be a partial and likely temporary solution. The guy cares more for appearance than structure, that certainly tells you something.
So you pointed out the problem to the guy during construction, offered to fix it, he declined, another contractor did sloppy work which exacerbated the appearance problem, and he's threatening to sue you? Is that a fair summation?
That's about the size of it. Seems a lot shorter the way you wrote it.
http://www.peteforgovernor.com
This changes some of my thoughts. Did the roofer work for you or directly for the HO?
Welcome to the Taunton University of Knowledge FHB Campus at Breaktime. where ... Excellence is its own reward!
Alright, many of you like to hear the other side of the story. In the next post I'll put up the homowners response to Pete's initial message in this thread.
I introduced and referred Pete to the homowner. I've known Pete here for maybe 7/8 years. I've known Ed probably 25 yrs. He comes here to NW Oh. to do alot of my tile, vinyl and HW work. Pretty much a working visit for us. All my customers have been satisfied with his work.
I didn't want to get in the middle but I can't sit here and read this stuff w/o at least giving the other guy a chance to be heard.
If Pete would have sent me the first post b/4 posting it here, might have had some luck mediating this disagreement. Remodeling Contractor just outside the Glass City.
Quittin' Time
As the homeowner being refered to in the recent email here are a few of the actual facts.
Being a flooring contractor myself, when I price a job on the very high end of the spectrum it includes the responsibility of making simple corrections.
The supposed sag in the header is barely visible in the House 1/4'' over 6' (not a 10') span
Simply adjusting 3 of the new rafters would have eliminated the problem. This is hard to do when you precut all the rafters off site.
Next to the sag is a 3/4 in crown in an existing rafter, again an adjustment to the new framing would have been a simple correction to the problem.
Also I was informed by Mr.Draganic that leaving the new sheathing 1 inch back from the existing facia is proper technique. Makes it a little difficult to solidly and properly install the drip edge.
Showing up on a job of this size with more than a circular saw, compressor , and framing nailer might have helped the problem.
Conversations prior to the start of the project where my concerns about rotted facia boards,bad sheathing, etc,,,, were totally ignored well, because time is money, Quality be damned....
Sincerely,
The homeowner who can't be conned.
Fast EddieRemodeling Contractor just outside the Glass City.
Quittin' Time
I'll add this Pete.
The shingle work is bogus. If there was a problem, the roofer should have called it to someones attention before he covered it up.
The fascia line on the whole house shot is terrible. At the least, you should have straightened it out.
If it were me, I would work this out with Ed. I didn't need this headache, nor do you.
Remodeling Contractor just outside the Glass City.
Quittin' Time
Edited 8/30/2005 10:12 pm ET by calvin
Can you hear the collective "Hmmmm"...?The extent of the pre-existing is a big part of this in my mind. If it was 3/4" in ten feet, it definitely indicates a structural problem that both Pete and Ed should have dealt with.But if it was only 1/4" in six feet, that might be normal and acceptable but made worse by the framing done over it. Still no evidence what the header is actually made of.Thanks for stepping up.
Welcome to the Taunton University of Knowledge FHB Campus at Breaktime. where ... Excellence is its own reward!
Calvin,
The fascia line that you see is the result of drip edge that was not laid straight so the ends curled up. Look at the bottom of the same fascia.
http://www.peteforgovernor.com
Pete, you cant cite the bottom of the coil stock to prove that the top of the wood fascia is straight. Most coil guys that think like me start the coil at the lowest part of the fascias and work outward from there.
blue
1 sheet of plywood...20.00
2 bundles of shingles ..35.00
roll of felt...12.00
drip edge...5.00
2/3 of a day labor
happy customerwww.shelladditions.com
"Showing up on a job of this size with more than a circular saw, compressor , and framing nailer might have helped the problem."
Uh ... Ed?
don't forget ... lotsa of us have been to Pete's house a coupla years back ... and we all saw a big-a$$ work truck sitting out front .. loaded with tools.
U saying Pete works out of the trunk of his car?
now who's talking outta their a$$?
one question ... did U say No to any repairs that'd disrupt the interior?
were U open and available to disrupting the interior and actually paying more money to fix the real problem in the first place?
and ... all the drip edge I've seen has a nailing flange wider than an inch.
my thots ... I see a cranky homeowner who tried to pinch pennies and is now bitching that his basic little house isn't a castle at someone elses expense.
Thanks for stopping by .... I'm dealing with one of your type at this very moment ... this is kinda refreshing ...
btw ... who's idea was the layover?
did U ask for a "near pefect job" ... from the start ... menaing go in and fix all that's wrong ... with U shelling out the big bucks to make all your problems go away ...
or did U call around and ask for someone that'd do a layover and save U a coupla bucks vs that whole reframe job?
and ... while I got ya here ... U gonna sue the roofer too?
or was he cheap so he's still your friend?
Jeff Buck Construction
Artistry In Carpentry
Pittsburgh Pa
Simply adjusting 3 of the new rafters would have eliminated the problem. This is hard to do when you precut all the rafters off site.
no it's not. Pete could just throw a sawzaw in the trunk of the Yugo ... go pop the crooked fascia ... pop the crooked drip edge ... zip cut those 3 rafters loose ... and tap in some shims.
U could then pay the roofer another $25 to re-lace the metal work.
There ... done!
Jeff Buck Construction
Artistry In Carpentry
Pittsburgh Pa
Calvin:
Is this "fast eddie"? The "fast eddie" who quit smokin' a while back and posted here?????
No it's not. This friend of mine from Cleveland has never posted here b/4.Remodeling Contractor just outside the Glass City.
Quittin' Time
Because I'm slow.... you referred a friend to Pete, it's turning out badly and it's ended up here on board?
Gulp!
Yup, referred a friend to my friend Pete.
Remodeling Contractor just outside the Glass City.
Quittin' Time
Edited 8/30/2005 11:39 pm ET by calvin
As the homeowner being refered to in the recent email here are a few of the actual facts.
Being a flooring contractor myself, when I price a job on the very high end of the spectrum it includes the responsibility of making simple corrections.
The supposed sag in the header is barely visible in the House 1/4'' over 6' (not a 10') span
Simply adjusting 3 of the new rafters would have eliminated the problem. This is hard to do when you precut all the rafters off site.
The rafters were only cut on one end while off-site so that I could also drill and notch for the lag bolts. The final cuts were made on-site.
Next to the sag is a 3/4 in crown in an existing rafter, again an adjustment to the new framing would have been a simple correction to the problem.
I have no idea what you are refering to in this instance.
Anyone can see in the pictures that I posted that the roof does not have any abrupt humps in it. Maybe you mean something else?
Also I was informed by Mr.Draganic that leaving the new sheathing 1 inch back from the existing facia is proper technique. Makes it a little difficult to solidly and properly install the drip edge.
I do keep my roof sheathing back about 1/2 to 3/4 inch from the outside face of the fascia. I do this so as to not create a situation where any section of the sheathing would extend beyond the fascia face, causing a problem when tucking up coil work beneath the drip edge... a problem I've run into countless times when I did a lot of siding.
All drip edge has a sufficient nailing flange to accomodate this without concern.
Showing up on a job of this size with more than a circular saw, compressor , and framing nailer might have helped the problem.
I know what your getting at and you're just being facetious in that comment. I have a bazillion tools and a truck that cannot hold them all. I did not bring a corded sawzall on one day and did borrow the homeowner's instead of driving home and grabbing one of my two.
Conversations prior to the start of the project where my concerns about rotted facia boards,bad sheathing, etc,,,, were totally ignored well, because time is money, Quality be damned....
Nothing was ignored. I did not originally contract to replace the fascia boards that you brought up prior to the job start. I DID however, replace them for you, free of charge because you insisted they all be replaced while we were up there. In the drawings it was stated that the exisitng overhang would remain undisturbed. There was no additional charge for my replaceing the bad sheathing either, now that I think of it. What's your game here, you hire me for one job and try to squeeze ten more out of me? Then act as though I'm screwing you on the extras?
Sincerely,
The homeowner who can't be conned.
Nobody is conning you but yourself. I told you early on what the cause of the sag is, as minor as it is. You did not care to rectify it then. Now that the roofer laid shingles like he was blindfolded, it is somehow my fault? Maybe it is more a situation of your reluctance to listen. You are a difficult person to reason with which became obvious mid-project when you freaked out about a piece of sheathing that was tacked in place overnight and called me screaming.. I believe you told me to shut up and listen when I tried to tell you the piece was only there temporarily. I bit my tongue and allowed this for the sake of not making a more difficult situation.
You were satisfied enough to make final payment to me, but now after the roof and coil went on and the horrible drip edge and roof job is jumping out at you, you want to pin the enitire mess on me?
You hired a guy who came to work in a cadillac with his roofing tools in the trunk and a helper who has never before been on a roof. The poor guy laid about 20 square of roofing and felt for 500.00 labor. but you're sure that I am the reason his drip edge is so screwed up?
why did the front of the house come out so spiffy? I laid the sheathing the same way there.
Like I tried to tell you yesterday, the roof job is the big problem. it is not the roof structure causing it to look so crappy. BUT, you don't listen to anything that isn't what you already have in your head.
The drip edge was stapled down by your roofer with his slap-stapler. I did not see him put any nails in it.
What do you say I come out there and pop it loose and straighten it out and we see how that looks then?
Also, have Calvin forward the pictures to you that I posted here (or signup yourself and view them). Maybe another look at the situation, now that you've had time to settle down, will shed new light for you.
I bent over backwards to accomodate you, your schedule and all of your demands throughout this process. To now have you speak so poorly of me is unfair.
Pete
http://www.peteforgovernor.com
In the post from the homeowner, post # 43, he signs it as "Fast Eddie". I use the screen name "Fast Eddie", but we're not the same person.
"When asked if you can do something, tell'em "Why certainly I can", then get busy and find a way to do it." T. Roosevelt
Will the real Fast Eddie please stand up?
The Breaktimer formerly known as "Steve-O"
"Preach the Gospel at all times; if necessary, use words." - St. Francis of Assisi
Fast Eddie ...
so is your roofer offering to fix this?
what's the final verdict?
Jeff Buck Construction
Artistry In Carpentry
Pittsburgh Pa
And here's a copy of the detail, from the plans, for clarity
http://www.peteforgovernor.com
I see lots of "existings" on those prints ...
pretty much shows what ya did and didn't touch.
your job was to add a slope ...
U added a slope.
case closed ...
wirte it all up nice and neat for the local magistrate ...
offer to fix it for a nominal amount ...
send it all to him and call his bluff.
deal with enough people and sooner or later yer gonna get " "I'll sue!" 'd"
Jeff Buck Construction
Artistry In Carpentry
Pittsburgh Pa
The reason we designed and built the roof the way we did was because the customer did not want to disturb the existing walls or ceiling on the interior. The existing 2/12 roof rafters were also serving as the ceiling joists and had drywall affixed to them.
For me to fix the problem would have required interior modifications which the homeowner did not want. My only job was to design and build the roof system over the existing, the additional finishes were being contracted to others through the homeowner.
I didn't realize that you designed the roof. With that said you should've checked to make sure that the existing header wasn't sagging and marked your plans "VIF" from where I'm from that means "Verify in Field" that if there's any noticeable sag or when you start connstruction to fix it with the proper size header.
All Architects do that espescially on add-a-levels because your adding on top of existing headers. You did the same thing. You added a roof on top of another roof that's sitting on top of a undersized sagging header.
Since you were the designer/architect/engineer and your homeowners comments are not to disturb the existing walls or ceiling. Your very first words back to him acting as designer/architect/engineer should've been,"We will have to check for any visible sags in the ceiling and make sure that your existing header is structurally strong enough to handle the weight of the new roof".
Since your the one drawing the plans and acting as the designer it's not just the look that your achieving it's also the structural integrety of the house your also looking for. So it's your responcibility to make sure that header is structuarlly sound and has no visible sags in it or if and when you noticed it, that is when you tell the owner it has to be fixed.
He can tell you all he wants not to disturb the walls and ceiling but that means nothing. You can't just listen to a guy who wants you to do the wrong job.
One more note was that the sag was not noitceable before starting for two primary reasons. One, the back yard goes downhill and you couldn't see the shingles from the angle it was situated at. Secondly, there was an overhang of roof section over that area that was discovered to be rotten (full of carpenter ants) once the H.O. stripped back the roofing and he wanted me to cut it off.
That means nothing Pete because you were the one who designed and drew the plans. You should've checked the header before you started anything.
What makes you think that you can just add another roof on top of an existing one that is over a header whithout making sure the header is structuarl strong enough?
That's what Architects are supposed to do so your actingas one and you should've done the same thing.
There's been times where there wasn't a note on the plans to verify if an exiosting header was strong enough but when IU start framing and see the existing header is sagging or undersized I call the Architect and ask him what size header to put in and he tells me.
Anybody in that situation should do the same thing.
Joe Carola
Pete;
He wants to play hardball. I think you can make an argument for what you did, given he told you not to do anything inside. Write one CYA letter, maybe have a lawyer help you write it. Maybe even offer to try to work something out. Send it Certified and Regular mail. Give him a limited time to respond - maybe a week. If no response, file a lien against him. Probably won't cost you much to do this.
You will have to decide how far to push it. If it winds up in court, that's a PITA, maybe an expensive PITA. The lien at least puts a little pressure on him.
Don (f/k/a Hammerlaw)
Don,
I am paid in full. The customer was aware of the condition as was so unconcerned about fixing it as suggested that he paid me and only after the roof and siding were on did it look bad enough to bother him. This wasn't caused by the swale nearly as much as it was caused by the way the roofer laid the drip edge too tight and curled back.
http://www.peteforgovernor.com
Edited 8/30/2005 8:09 am ET by PeteDraganic
Here is the contract language for this project....
The owner is the contractor for this project and must obtain all required permits. CDC is acting as a sub-contractor under owner for select portions of project.
CDC will produce and submit to the City of Brecksville for approval, general framing drawings for this project.
CDC will supply all lumber necessary for the completion of framing as is related to the construction of a new roof assembly over the residence at the above listed address, including all dimensional lumber for rough framing and OSB for sheathing use.
CDC will supply the necessary labor to construct the new roof assembly framework and apply sheathing.
The owner will supply labor and any necessary materials to remove existing roofing, install new roofing system, extend chimney and other accessories and utilities to above roof line as well as to complete all other exterior finishes such as trimwork and vinyl siding.
CDC will also supply labor and materials to complete the rough framing and sheathing of "alternate 1" as denoted on plans, a canopy over entry stoop to residence. This will be composed of #2 grade SPF lumber or similar. Finishes are responsibility of owner.
Owner will provide complete cleanup and removal of related debris at project completion.
http://www.peteforgovernor.com
pete, who loves ya ?
i would have strung the rafters and shimmed as a matter of course.. and the sag in the header would still be there since he didn't want to disturb the interior..
but the exterior would appear straight.. sometimes we leave things out of plumb.. out of level.. and even crooked.. depending on circumstances
but when the fix is as easy as this one could have been....
i mean even blue would have used his calibrated eyeball and sighted the rafters and seen the sag..
so ... shim... or adjust the HAP.. either one would have done it without disturbing the interiorMike Smith Rhode Island : Design / Build / Repair / Restore
Mike,
If I were to shim those rafters up or increase their length enough to compensate for the dip, it causes two conditions, neither of which are appropriate. When shiimming, I increase the height of the fascia in that area. When increasing rafter length, we would have to puch the fascia outward.
Upon my reinspection today and ability to actually measure the dip instead of eyeballing things, the deviance over 10 feet is actually 1/2" at its highest point. This was measured at the fourth course of shingle where the wall resides directly below.
Look at the pictures that I will post in a minute.
http://www.peteforgovernor.com
OK,<!----><!----><!---->
Here are explanations for you (of what each pic is).<!----><!---->
"project" is a shot of the front of the house where you can see the old roof line and get an idea of what the project was about.<!----><!---->
"overall" is an overall shot of the rear of the house<!----><!---->
"affected area" is a close-up of the affected area.<!----><!---->
"curled shingles" is a shot down the slope of the roof to show how the shingles swoop up at the very bottom course only because of the twisted drip-edge.<!----><!---->
"curled 2" is another shot to show that same as “curled shingles”<!----><!---->
"shingle rows" shows how terribly the first row of shingles was laid by the roofer.. this indicates why the drip edge is so screwed up. If you look closely at the near but blurred part of the photo, you can see where the shingles swoop up over the twisted drip edge.<!----><!---->
"kinked" shows how the drip edge kinked upward due to the fact that it wasn’t laid straight and proper.<!----><!---->
"high point gauged" This shows my tape measure against my straight line so that I could photograph the entire string and area while showing fairly clear representation of how low the dip traveled.<!----><!---->
"high point measured" is a close-up of the string-line against my tape blade to show that there is a ½” deviance. It is not ¾” as I said earlier. This string is pulled across where the wall resides below in order to give a fair representation of how much header sag there is.
Edited 8/30/2005 11:22 am ET by PeteDraganic
Edited 8/30/2005 11:24 am ET by PeteDraganic
That "shinglerows" picture is pretty unsightly. The roofer certainly should have done that differently.
Is the homeowner planning on installing gutters to the rear of the home? If so, I would think the gutter would conceal most of the dip which is mainly noticeable beacuse of the exposed drip edge. Have the high point of the gutter in the middle, then pitched to both ends.
The Breaktimer formerly known as "Steve-O"
"Preach the Gospel at all times; if necessary, use words." - St. Francis of Assisi
Looking at that last pic of shingle rows it's no wonder the roof looks like it has a dip in it. The crimped metal didn't help the install either.
That would be a tear off and reshingle on one of my jobs, if I hadn't already caught it by the second course.
Must be low bid and the roofer doesn't own a chalk box or a string line.
I'd tell the GC/HO it's his baby to fix and to supervise his subs a little better.
A little late but I see you're now getting the idea of CYA. You'll make a good politicain if it kills you.<G>
the roofer had everything he thought he needed in the trunk of his car.
http://www.peteforgovernor.com
the pics are way less offending as the pic I had in my mind.
looks like a problem a simple tweak of the drip edge and bottom coupla rows of shingles could solve. Actually ... the "dip" doesn't seem to be the real problem ... it's the high spots that grab my eye.
after seeing the pic's ... anyone that says they would custom cut each rafter and/or shim is either talking outta their a$$ of has never done remodeling.
why stop at the header? Why not strip the house down to the base foundation and work up from there? It's probably sunk by 1/4" ?
U know ... for free too. 'Cause U were there ....
Jeff Buck Construction
Artistry In Carpentry
Pittsburgh Pa
I must be one of those "#### talkers" (maybe that's why my breath stinks......)
I've done plenty of custom cut rafters to make up for problems, but it's not what I would have done here. Fundamentally, if a header has a sag, it's going to get worse with more weight. I DO think this is an issue that, while the support problem should have been addressed before the new roof was framed, is mostly a shingle and drip-edge issue as far as what's making it look like crap. I'm thinking when the roof was open, Pete could have cut back the overhang on the offending area, buried a longer header over the wall, then hung the old roof off of it, and sat the new roof on it. Solves the support problem without adding weight to an undersized header.
At this stage of the game, it depends on how much $ is in limbo. I've eaten some dung that I didn't want to, and fixed some things that weren't in my scope of workbefore in the interest of getting paid.
Just wait till the check clears before you tell the douche ho to go @#$!% himself.
Bing
I've been paid in full already... so that is not an issue.
Also, to fix the header, I'd have to destroy the drywall inside on the wall and on the ceiling to jack the roof back to shape (1/2"). The customer did not want that done after we uncovered the reason for the 1/2" sag and furthermore, the sag was so barely noticeable that he paid me happily when I was complete with the job and after we had discussed the weak/old header.
It wasn't until the roof and trim work had been installed that he seemed to become concerned and again I contend that the roof is the problem that he is seeing, not my work.
BTW, The existing overhangs were to remain. (look at the attached drawing.) The new roof pretty much sits on top of the old one. The ceiling is affixed to the underside of the old roof joists.
http://www.peteforgovernor.com
Edited 8/30/2005 5:19 pm ET by PeteDraganic
after seeing the pic's ... anyone that says they would custom cut each rafter and/or shim is either talking outta their a$$ of has never done remodeling
Since I've done remodeling, I must be talking out of my a$$!
I don't see what so hard about custom cutting each rafter, or shimming them. If the rafters were precut, I'd be forced to shim. If I noticed the dip in the fascia before I cut the rafters, I'd simply add the depth of the shim to the cut. I'd add the 3/4" to the rafter at the center of the dip and deduct 1/4" for each adjacent rafter. By the third or fourth rafter from the center, I'd be back to normal. Total elapsed time spent: Zero! Why wouldn't this take me longer? Because I'd simply be adding the extra meat to the template marked stock. I've done this hundreds of times. It's no big deal.
Since the bottom of the fascia is going to be covered by new aluminum trim, this roof rebuild/repair is an easy one.
The high points aren't really that much higher. It's somewhat of an illusion and maybe some bubbled drip edge.
I think some of you finish carpenters are making a bigger deal out of this that it really is.
blue
Pete, while this makes for an interesting read, you should keep in mind that you are not anonymous, and should this go to court and get messy, everything you have posted here is admissable evidence. I'm not suggesting that you have admitted to anything improper, but I am suggesting that all this discourse might serve to complicate your case, should it go that far.
I haven't read every message in the thread, but looking at the pics (which only go so far) I'm with Jeff - it just doesn't look like a real issue. (Is your customer an engineer? An obsessive compulsive?)Are you sure it's a sagged header? Tough to say from the pics, but it looks like normal variation from flat to me. How do things look inside at that picture window? Have you sighted along the top of the picture window?When I get get a customer obsessing about "normal" roof sag, my standard line is "Everyone's roof is perfectly flat except for your own. [Pause] Framing lumber is never perfectly straight. [Pause - and if the customer is "loose"] And neither are framers!."
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Sojourners: Christians for Justice and Peace
Bob,
First let me check that the universe is still intact. You agreeing with me and jeff... at the same time? LOL...
Seriously....
I don't want to imply anything about the customer's traits. I just want to present the facts of the situation and get some honest feedback.
Like I just told Joe, there is easily a half-inch difference between the crown of boards that I built the roof with (2x8x16'). It is lumber and that's what lumber does. I personally feel that a 1/2" swale over 10' is not need for massive concern and is certainly not the cause for the unsightly drip edge.
Furthermore, it is not a difficult fix and I would be glad to carry it out if the customer would allow it. But the customer is insisting that we need to strip off the roof and sheathing and cut or shim rafters to fix the appearance problem.
http://www.peteforgovernor.com
>>First let me check that the universe is still intact. You agreeing with me and jeff... at the same time? LOL...I haven't been quite right since Riverfest <G>
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Sojourners: Christians for Justice and Peace
It musta been that hug thing with Jeff. :O)
yada
yada
yada
just put the gutter on and end this damn thread...................
carpenter in transition
my feeling is....i'm with mr. buck
you did your thing, as described, and you got paid for it.
as far as your photos go, i just looked at "affected area"
tell the guy to put the damn gutter on the shack and shut up. you will never see a thing once the gutter is on.
carpenter in transition
It is not really a problem until the sheriff comes to your door, congratulations on getting paid.www.shelladditions.com
The pictures say it all. I take back any blame on you. The situation was created by the HO to begin with ( though I agree with Framer that I would have walked before working under that constraint) What you built was only marginally poor then, but it was greatly amplified by sloppy roofing work shown especially clearly in "Kinked" and in "shingle rows"additional evidence that he was a sloppy roofer is in "curled shingles" When you look beyuond the areea in question, you see the dormer where he laid shingles at exposures varying from about 3.5" to 5"+ and could not seem to lay the ridge straight.So now I'm going to agree with the HOs statement that he needs to get his roofer to fix it right. The roofer made the job look terrible, not you.
Welcome to the Taunton University of Knowledge FHB Campus at Breaktime. where ... Excellence is its own reward!
Pete, I hate to say it, but you screwed up. Please don't get too mad at me. We all make mistakes and I know I've screwed up things just like this many times. Sometimes I "get away" with it, other times I'm doing the re-repair thing!
One of my most uttered phrases to my grasshoppers is this: "If it looks right, it is right!". When I tell them that, I'm trying to get them to understand that sometimes, we have to leave things out of plumb, or out of level to make it look right. In your case, it doesn't look right, so therefore it isn't right.
In your case, you've stubbornly decided that you wanted to terminate each new rafter in exactly the same way. You've decided that you don't want shims. Your finding a ton of excuses to justify "why" you left a dip in the roof. Basically, you are rationalizing.
Your rationalization has focused on your fixation about wanting to get inside and jack or replace that header. I don't think it's necessary. If you leave a sag in the header, and sometime in the future, they want to fix it, all they'll have to do is put a stronger header in, push it up tite to the lowest part of the sag, and shim the voids. You're making a mountain out of a molehill in this regard.
Mike made a joke about me using my eyes to do this job, but it's no joke. If I was doing that job, the very first thing I would do after stripping the roofing off the old roof would be to put my eye on the fascia and assess the straightness and general condition of the entire length. I'd be assessing the up and down plane as well as the in and out plane. I'd be assessing the plumbness of the fascia. I'd be scrutinizing the top outside edge of the fascia, as well as the bottom inside edge of the fascia. I'd be studying the soffit, eyeballing it to see if it was level, or dipped too at the problem area.
After seeing the 3/4" dip, which I would spot immediately, I'd begin assessing how my "fix" would be. I'd be analyzing how simple, or involved the fix was going to be. Id be deciding if I had to pull apart the entire soffit system, or just sawzall in the affected area and pull it up level.
My first thoughts would be to do just that: cut the fascia loose from the existing rafter and force it up till it was straight. I'd attempt to do that because I find it easier to cut all rafters exactly the same and one of the requirements for that is to have parallell ridge and fascia.
If the fascia was impossible to free up and lift, I'd be thinking along the lines of shimming the top of it. That would involve adding a free hand cut 3/4" strip of pine that tapers down to nothing in about 6'. After adding that strip, I'd be forced to look t the next problem that I'm causing: a fat spot in the fascia. To rectify that, I'd have to add a strip of pine on the bottom of the fascia at each end of the house. That rip would be 3/4 to nothing in about 16'. The alternative would be to remove the entire fascia and add a new one that might measure 6 1/4". I'd rip it out of a 1x8.
I call this boogerin'. I'm actually pretty good at boogerin', but I don't like the homeowner wars that you are now into.
My last homeowner war was with a triple PMS'd lady. I did an addition and there was a 1/4 bump in her new roof (rafters weren't exactly 11 1/4"). She blew a cork about that. I went inside (it was still in the rough) and sawzalled a 1/4 inch off the plumb cut at the top and went out side and jumped on the roof and it was flat. The funny thing is that her existing roof, I swear, had a 6" dip in the hip at the garage and the entire roof had 1 and 2" rolling dips and bumps all over it. When I did my layon, I had to use every ounce of my extensive boogerin' skills to get that thing to look like it was right. It was an unbelievable challenge, but evidently I must have fooled her because all she could see was that little 1/4" bump in the new section.
Anyways, it's obvious that the roofer didn't help you at all. A good remodeler would have not accentuated the dip by pounding the drip edge tight. If I was roofing it, I would have slipped a couple of shingle under the dip before I installed the drip and attempted to mininize the bad area.
At this point, I would offer to shim the dip up if the homeowner was willing to pay for the repair of the aluminum trim. I'd pull off the drip at the problem area, sawzall the new rafters loose from the old roof and drive a few shims in there. I think I could do that repair in as little as 1/2 hour.
Now don't get mad at me, I'm just the messenger.
blue
let me throw out a little question at you and Mike.if being a big word here and none of us knows for surebut IF the header had a 3/4" sag in ten feet over the window, that indicates that it is undersized and failing. Would you not be worried about doubling the load on that memeber by adding this new roof to it without fixing it?
Welcome to the Taunton University of Knowledge FHB Campus at Breaktime. where ... Excellence is its own reward!
paul... i would find out what was what...BTW... the header span looks more like 6'...not 10'.. those windows are not mulled they have stud pockets..
also.. notice the fascia.. does the bottom edge look dipped ? no.. the top edge looks dipped.. this is fixable
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but no way would i leave the hollywood side of that house looking like that
and blue.. no i wasn't joking.. your eyes are better than mine... i'd eyeball it.. and as soon as i saw it.. i'd have my stringline on it and be figuring the fix
if the fascia was going to get "fat".. i'd add a shadow board.. i'd do something
and it wouldn't be a big deal, as you said..
hey
when you wandering thru Rhode Island ?
Mike Smith Rhode Island : Design / Build / Repair / Restore
Edited 8/30/2005 11:05 pm ET by MikeSmith
i'd have my stringline on it and be figuring the fix
All my stringlines sag. If I built anything to them, they'd all look worse than Pete's roofer's work!
Regarding Rhode Island: I've never considered traveling there. It's never really entered my mind, probably because I'm always so fixated on getting somewhere hot! For sure, if I ever get near there, I'm looking you up. I want to climb up on some of your scaffolding and find out what it feels like to work safe for a change!
I might do a dive off the side just to prove to you that nothing is as safe as we all wish it could be.
I've got a flight booked to San Antonio this weekend. I'm meeting my daughter there and we are going to look at some lots somewhere between San Antonio and San Marco. It looks like they finally have decided to settle somewhere. I'm hoping. I'm tired of Michigan.
blue
Blue,
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That is where I live and work. Between SA and SM. If you get a chance email me about your visit. I might even be of some help to you if you do come down here. Have a good visit.
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Mr. J
Between SA and SM.
New Braunfels? Garden Ridge? Schertz?
"When asked if you can do something, tell'em "Why certainly I can", then get busy and find a way to do it." T. Roosevelt
Yes, yes, yes, and Selma too.
So ... the Senoritas at the Braken cafe gave you that name ...
The way I heard it, you have the fire of a poblano and the size of a serrano. :)
"When asked if you can do something, tell'em "Why certainly I can", then get busy and find a way to do it." T. Roosevelt
I know you wouldn't hear anything like that said in the Café, those girls are sweethearts and don’t talk like that. But over at the old 9 pin alley you might, or you might hear them say something like “Slow down Fast Eddie” or "I just came here to dance, I really didnt want to love you". 8)
We scoped out New Braunfelds, Schertz, Gruene, San Marcos, Canyon Lake, San Antonio. I even got to eat at a greasy spoon that had cockroaches!
blue
So were the cucarachas wrapped in a flour or corn tortilla?
"When asked if you can do something, tell'em "Why certainly I can", then get busy and find a way to do it." T. Roosevelt
That shot of the kinked eave metal could be a loose plywood seam? Coupla nails miss or split out a rafter norner edge? Coupla nails sunk into better meat, add a screw or two? If the lower header sagged a bit under load it could have popped the lower corner nails in the sheets. Sometimes my nails get little spaced along the rafters on the eaves if I'm not careful. If it got as far as being shingled I've had decent luck re nailing a rafter or two to get a better hold on the ply. Having also been a roofer whenever I'd picked up on a small miss by the framer like this I just drove in a few sinkers so it wouldn't bugger my job. I figured it was in my best interest to insure the roof sheeting was in good order prior to paper if I could. I didn't sweat the small stuff but I did save a framer or two by pointing out where an inattentive helper or journeyman missed on the nailing schedule. From the looks of the rest of the roof job (wavy courses, poorly installed ridge vent, edge metal just beat into place, bashed shingle edges from poor bundle handling/culling) the GC best be worried about pop-nails, low-nails or poorly nailed valleys and less about how the framer framed the roof. Even if the header is OK, whenever you add weight to an existing building you almost have to get some movement, be it in a header or even down in the foundation.
mb... good post.. good info..
could you break it up with some white space for olde eyes ?Mike Smith Rhode Island : Design / Build / Repair / Restore
Old eyes indeed... don't nobody listen to Mike, he's doesn't look a day over 80 to me.
As for the other questions:
the plywood is perfectly in place, the drip edge is pulled back and then pushed down in different parts causing it roll upward.
I've taken the ladder up to the edge nd the drip edge will pull down considerably but really should be removed and reinstalled.
I would love to do it but the homeowner doesn't want to hear it... plus I can't just step on the roofer's toes and assume his responsibility just because I know how to fix the problem.
http://www.peteforgovernor.com
Might as well pizz somebody off in this thread too! [just kiddin]
I could have done the job too but Im not perfect. Im not going to get in any debates about how to do the job cause different folks have different ways and as long as you get there pleasing the customer and the realitives , I think the job has been done . Mainly though we have to be "happy" with our work.
Ive learned a lot through the years from bad mistakes. I over sprayed a roof one time with stain and took the customers money. It was 200 dollars back in 73. That painted roof cost be about 10 grand that I can count up in lost work. Of course it could be worse than that but I dont have data. There were others too like getting wall paint mixed up in the house paint . I sprayed a whole wall with it and it bubbled a few days after I recieved my money. She didnt reckon I was worth killin. Although that was total unknown accident she preached her sermon at church to all her friends. Made killer money on a few jobs that went too good.They told others I ripped them off. I could go on, but youve got it.
I would not have done the job if I knew somthing was wrong I wasnt going to fix. If they dont want to pay me to do it right the first time just simply move on cause its not worth it. Ive bid a bunch of jobs and completed them but Ive ran into hidden stuff or something I missed on the estimate. I have bid a bunch of drywall jobs over the phone. Then after I had sold my azz I get to really see the job. I watched a movie one time and one stunt man said to the other , its too late to back out . You done sold your butt. You took the job and you are going to jump. I cant count the times Ive been raped by hangers and framers . I break out the wide feather boards and eat it . 3 foot , 4 foot , 5 foot butts spread out doesnt matter , I sold my butt and my names attached.
I wish Pete hadnt posted this , but since he did he let this go to our boards for comment.
He should have fixed the problem either in walking before the job for lack of money , or demanded the fix. He says he missed it I think because it didnt show up. Ill give him every benifit . Then its simple . He sold his butt and he should have fixed it while he was there one way or another .
I would not have put the extra weight on a weak header to start , and thats all Ill say about that.
Tim
Tim,
The problem isn't nor ever was the 1/2" swale in the roof. It is how horrible the drip edge makes the back look. The HO thinks it is my roof that does it while I know that it is just the drip edge that is all screwed up.
Check out the pictures.
There is nothing under that drip edge but air.
http://www.peteforgovernor.com
I'll add w h i t e s p a c e . . .
Too much? Just foolin'...
Drip edge is over air? Did you run subfasia to plane with the rafter top edges? Did you hold the sheeting too high? I'm not being critical just trying to understand...
When roofing, we used commercial grade "F" or "C" drip edge. These often had a wider nailing flange plus was a heavier gauge. The junk from the box stores is usually 50 gauge or some such. That "may" be an exaggeration but not by much. I think the paint may be thicker than the metal. Commercial grade drip also comes in differing widths, I could order the right metal to span any "air". I did tack it in with staples but then hand nailed it secure, gun nails leave the wires that snag the metal if you have to monkey with it plus they tend to overdrive, blowing through or pinching the metal.
If my metal wouldn't lay right over the fasia/subfasia, I would use a ridgevent hand nail (2 or 3 inch roofer) to punch through the metal and carefully tap it home to hold the metal in plane and line without crimping or popping through.
When framing I would nail the subfasia home with the outside top corner-edge in plane with the rafter tops. Then when sheeting I would pull 48 1/4" from that same edge. This usually left the plywood back from the vertical plane of the fasia a hair to not interfere down the road but still provide nailing into same sub fasia. That's just my one way, there are a hundred others. I don't mean to impune your work I just want to make sure we're on a similar sheet of music.
Another thought about such a peak at the eaves is that the fasia may have scissored. Is this over a joint in the fasia? A dropped header would tend to create a tapering swale that is inverse of such a peak unless two headers to either side have dropped. Something is pulling the roofing up at this point such as poor metal fastening failing under contracting ice & water shield. To my mind for the framing to fail in such a manner would mean that both corners dropped, leaving the center high thus kicking up the roofing. Or bunk roofing.
Wow, now I REALLY never want to be a roofer!Coming to you from beautiful Richmond, Va.
The drip edge is simply pulled too far back on the ends and it is riding too high over the fascia. The roof sheathing is in plane with the fascia top edge. All plywood is secure and straight.
The roofer put the drip edge on from above and obviously couldn't tell it was too far back and riding up on him.
http://www.peteforgovernor.com
The roof sheathing is in plane with the fascia top edge. All plywood is secure and straight
Earlier in this conversation, you said that the fascia is level. Now you are saying that the roof sheathing is in plane, with the level fascia. If I was Columbo, I'd tell you I have a problem.
My problem is this: Where did the 1/2" swale disappear too?
If you're going to tell me that you've floated the sheating, then I'll say ok, I've done that myself on occasion.
blue
Pete,
I have a 32 foot wide addition going and cut the eave back on the house last week, looked down the top plate and it is like a roller coaster, 1/2 to 3/4 inch variations. Nothing looks wrong from the outside or inside. I would bet money that is what is wrong with your job. Your rafters just telegraphed a bad plate line. The replies about not working over a bad header, come on !!!!
http://www.shelladditions.com
Edited 9/7/2005 8:19 pm ET by shellbuilder
Just curious whether there has been any resolution to your predicament?
The Breaktimer formerly known as "Steve-O"
"Preach the Gospel at all times; if necessary, use words." - St. Francis of Assisi
Dang it Mr Jalapeno! I just got back and was traipsing all over your stomping grounds. I would have loved to meet up with you but unfortunatly I didn't read your reply till I was back in Michigan!
I will be re-visiting that area in the very near future. I'll be sure to co-ordinate with you and we'll have a mini fest.
blue
Blue
You get back down here let me know, I live in San Marcos and I'm pretty sure I can find a restaurant with roaches, hell no respectable eatery would be without them.
Doug
That picture clarifies the span of the header, but I do see a dip in the fascia and the sofit over the center window, not that that means too much since it looks like AL nail over
Welcome to the Taunton University of Knowledge FHB Campus at Breaktime. where ... Excellence is its own reward!
I took that shot and added a couple of straight reference lines above and below the fascia (and above the window)Highlights your observation.
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Sojourners: Christians for Justice and Peace
Edited 8/31/2005 9:46 am ET by rjw
Bob,
That makes a great presentation.
I can guarantee you that my fascia board does not change in height through that or any other area. The way the drip edge rides over it changes dramatically. To the right, where the drip edge really is high, if you look really closely, you'll see that the ice shield is exposed because the drip edge is actually pulled up and back that far.
http://www.peteforgovernor.com
I can guarantee you that my fascia board does not change in height through that or any other area
That's a good start Pete.
Now, if you can guarantee that the fascia board does not wander off of a straight line, up or down, or side to side, I'd probably say case closed!
The picture "shingle-rows" shows a wandering shingle line. The other pictures don't show if the drip is tight to the fascia, but I suspect that it is. The fascia must be wandering in and out, thus setting up the illusion that the roof has a more significant dip to it. The picture entitled "curled shingles" indicate that the roof plane planes in well behind the fascia board.
All of these little things add up to an unhappy homeowner. All could have been tweaked or hidden with different construction techniques.
Also, I'm not buying that "all rafters vary up to 1/2" bit. I've had the grasshoppers try that one on me many times. Yes, the middle of the rafters might be crowned up 1/2", but the tips of the rafters should land within 1/4" of the fascia. A 1/2" variation at the fascia line is disasterous. I think this thread clearly proves that.
I teach my grasshoppers to make the roof idiot proof. Don't rely on the roofers to make something look good. If we screw it up on the rough, we get backcharged for the roofers work as well as fixing our own.
blue
Blue, that curl up in shingles is purely the drip edge. I can pull down on it and bring the shingles back into plane. My sheathing runs over top of the fascia board, the fascia, in no way shape or form runs above the sheathing line.
The drip edge is pulled back too tight so it is causing the front flange, that would normally rest on the fascia, to ride upward.
The easy fix is to pull the drip edge loose and move it where it belongs. I just can't seem to convince the HO of it.
The half inch deviation in the roof plane is virtually invisible with the shingles on but because we know it is there the HO insists it must be the problem. That deviation runs horizontally, not vertically in the way that would cause the facia end of the sheathing to lift.
http://www.peteforgovernor.com
My take from a guy that is more of a "fixer" than a roofer or carpenter. (I like to think I am above a hack however)
I think you are right about the roof being the issue. I think the fact that you told him about the issue before finishing covered your butt. I think you could have made up the difference by moving the rafters a little and made all well without any real liability or issue and I would have done that no matter who's house it was.
I think if it were me and I was recomended by a friend who is a friend I would fix the roofing and never work for the guy again. Just my take. Having had some experience in the government area you will find a lot more guys like this in government, better get used to it. DanT
Pete - What's the guy got to loose? If I were in your shoes, I'd offer to redo the drip edge and bottom courses of shingles. A few cedar shingles or extra asphalt shingles layered in the low spot as Piffen suggested will straighten it out. Might get a vote out of it the end......................... Birth, school, work, death.....................
This as been a good lesson for me Pete, I'm sure for you also <G>Please let us know how this all turns out.Some really good responses in here.
Pete Draganic, (for governor?),
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A true leader does not pass the buck on a problem. He finds a solution and implements it. This goes for you and Fast Eddie. You guys seem more intent on quarreling than getting it done. And it’s just a roof!
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This is a minor and petty problem at worst and is totally blown out of proportion. Cut the shingle edge straight, shim the low rafters up from inside the new attic space to flatten the dip and add any needed additional support scabs (or do nothing at all about it, it is not that bad), straighten the drip edge. This should take all of a smidgeon of time at most. Once the gutters are on and the shadows are straight, it will be a forgotten issue.
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“Don’t be a panic-ist!”
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Take “after” pictures and post here.
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Sheeesh-o peese-o guys! Really? ……….Good luck.
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Mr. J
I didn't read the whole thread but it sounds like you have suggested several resolutions to the problem - but the HO doesn't want to take any of your advice. It's just all so clear (in hindsight) in the HO's head what should have been done. You know what they say about hindsight ;-) I'd walk away from it, but send a registered letter to the HO documenting what you have already suggested.
If you do want to fix it, I'd rip off the roofing in the area, tear off a few sheets of plywood, shim it up as he wants, replace plywood and tar paper and have a nice day. The HO was acting as the GC and (I gather) contracted the roofing separately so that is his responsibility. As the GC he should have seen the problem and had it rectified before the roofing went on. I gather that you even discussed the sag mid project and he failed to properly recommend a solution at that time. The GC directs the project and comes up with solutions for problems along the way. Granted, everybody makes mistakes - it's just that he wants to off-load responsibility on to someone else. Unbeknownst to you he is probably leaning on the roofer too as we "speak".
Has anything new developed with the homeowner since the thread began?
Piffin, I'd only be worried if the homeowner was worried.
I mentioned in my dissertation that I'd strip the roofing. I'd be wary about just adding more roofing to an overloaded header. I'd most assuredly explain that the header was obviously undersized and that it probably should be ripped out and replaced with a microlam. I'd also explore the possibility of building a flush header into the roof that I was creating and take more of the pressure off the underlying structure.
But, in the end, if the client was only interested in doing the minimum, I'd give him what he wants and not lose any sleep over it, becuase in the end the worst case scenario would have the header sagging more and cracking the window. Then, the window and the header would be replaced.
I don't see this as a life and death or dangerous situation, so therefore I'd just do what i'm told.
blue
Definitely not life and death, unless the HO and pee start throwing bigger stones at each otherI had a shadow of a thought of the flush added header built in the new roof too.But not having been there, this is more of a mental exerciseStill, i'd a done more to make the HO worried about the header before hand.
Welcome to the Taunton University of Knowledge FHB Campus at Breaktime. where ... Excellence is its own reward!
Big rocks are raining down. Take cover!
how about I get a little mad ...
Hey Blue ... U let me know how your big transition into the world of remodeling goes, huh Buddy?
till then ...
uh ...
Jeff Buck Construction
Artistry In Carpentry
Pittsburgh Pa
Jeff, I did my share of remodeling back in the 70's/80's. I don't know if you were born yet.
This problem isn't specifically a remodeling problem. I could occur for a wide variety of reasons. It's a very basic fundamental carpentry situation. I think any of us that have worked extensively on rafters could easily solve this.
I think one reason that I might have an advantage getting this type of a roof straight is because I always install my soffits first, then install the roof to it. In this situation, I would still be looking to create a baseline with the cornice system, then work the rafters to it. Personally, I wouldn't think of precutting this entire roof offsite, before I'd re-created the fascia, but in the unlikely event that I did, and found out that the roof needed some tweaking, I'd simply shim the rafters and bring the fascia up to meet the perfectly level tips of the rafters.
I'm kinda curious as to why your panties are so bunched up? You must get upset when guys like me talk out of my a$$!
Heres some pics of my current remodeling. I'm not sure if this really qualifies as a remodel....they did keep the original dirt! The little ranch next to us sells for 330k. I'm doing this job for a remodeler that I met on this site. He remodels in the swanky part of town.
Notice my little table that I've got set up. I made it out of a couple leftover TJI joists. I finally found something good about TJIs!
blue
"This problem isn't specifically a remodeling problem."
I'd have to argue that point. This is indeed very much a remodeling specific problem. In new construction ... exactly how many times are dealing with marrying a new "addition" to old/existing?
That's the whole deal with remodeling .... how to make your stuff look good ... withing drawing too much attention to the crappy existing work. In remodeling ... plumb/level/square are not the rule of the day.
Unless ... times like this one appear to be. Homeowners want and ask for "just good enough" ... in remodeling ... there simply has to be a stopping point. Unless time and funds are limitless ... you simply must make a consciuos decision on where to stop the demo of the old and start the construction of the new.
That's why my panties are in such a bunch. U are talking 100% out of your speed framing/cut studs out to save a buck and blocking isn't needed a$$! U sound like you have absloutely no freaking clue.
Sure Blue ... you'd take the time to string each and every roof U stepped on .... but you'd still cut off yer freaking blade guard to save the split second it takes to reach over the lift thet guard for a safe cut. Yeah ... sure ... no speed squares 'cause they'll slow ya down ... but you'd string that roof line by golly!
I'm reading a bunch of new const guys giving out advice on how they'd do the remodel. Maybe I'll start telling you all how to frame faster?
my god ... this is like freaking homeowners telling us all how they'd do it too.
Fast Eddie wasn't looking for a straight fascia ... he was looking to save a buck. I've heard his "I'll Sue" BS one too many times.
I don't wanna pay ya to fix it up front ... but I'll sue as soon as I look at my bank balance ....
so Blue ... in short ... that is why. I just wrapped up a great coupla weeks with the worlds best customers ... and just got a call and picked up 3 more prints from the same new kictehn place ... so U kids are all lucky I'm in a good mood!
stay up late ... sleep in ... let it rain ... and add up bids all day.
sometimes in remodeling ... yer POS crooked house is still crooked at the end of the day ....
Jeff Buck Construction
Artistry In Carpentry
Pittsburgh Pa
Jeff,I do just as much remodeling as I do new framing so I know what it's like to work work existing structures.new framing and remodeling are night and day.Guys who just strictly do new framing do not have the patience or mentality do do remodeling from what I've seen over the years. The main point here is that Pete designed this project. So the first thing that he should've done before he adds a new roof load on top of a 10' opening with a 3/4" sag in it was to check to make sure that there were no sags in the header and to make sure the header was big enough to handle the new roof load. Your obviously a smart guy and do professional work, so if this was you who was asked to design the job would you have just put a new roof on top of this 10' wide opening without making sure the header can handle it?I don't think you would. I think you would've done the right thing from the start regardless of what the Homeowner said or not done the job at all. How can someone not notice a 3/4" sag in 10'?Yes, in remodeling we have to try to make things look as straight as possible but when it comes to structural things like a 10' header with a 3/4" sag in it we can't just have Mr Homeowner tell us to add another roof on it because he doesn't want the existing walls or ceiling to be disturbed. I would've told him to go pound salt before I added another roof on top of a 10' undersized header with a 3/4" sag in it. Are professional contractors supposed to just do what the homeowner says even though it's wrong and the contractor can say I did what I was contracted to do and that's it. Any contractor who says that knowing that he framed on top of a 10' 3/4" sagged header to me shouldn't be doing work and shouldn't be designing jobs.Like I posted to Pete when we do add-a-levels most of the house have 8' 9' or 10' windows in them with all undersized sagging headers in them and most of the plans always have a note in them to check the header in the field and we are to contact the architect if there's a problem and to put the proper size header in. We will span microlams across the top and hang the joists and the GC can go back later and put a new header in or I'll go back and do it. Or will do it first.We have to use our own judgement a lot of times because the architects don't pick up everything so when I'm up there and see that the headers are sagging I fix them I just don't add a second floor or a new set of rafters on top because I wasn't contracted to do it. I do it and get paid extra to do it.Joe Carola
Edited 8/31/2005 6:02 am ET by Framer
Joe,
I reposted and upon further review the roof sags 1/2" when a string is drawn across it and the sags graduates over a 10' run. I took photos and posted them too.
The sag is a minor defect and the result of the header below having a sag. This sag was not created by the new roof, it was existing and covered by the exterior siding some years ago. It is just transfering through to the new roof now.
Did you look at any of the pictures? If so, what do you think is causing the ugliness?
http://www.peteforgovernor.com
This sag was not created by the new roof, it was existing and covered by the exterior siding some years ago. It is just transfering through to the new roof now.
Pete,
I understand that the sag was existing but you still shouldn't have put the new roof on top of it adding more weight to it because obviously the sag in the header is due to a undersized header and now you've added more weight to it so this could get worse.
As far as fixing the outside and the ugliness, there's a million ways to due it. Blaming the roofer for dueing a sh!tty job isn't going to help either. It's not his fault that there's a 3/4' or 1/2" sag in the roof. He's not responcible for furring up the sag as far as I'm concerned. He could've at least tried to do a better job but that's not your problem since he wasn't your sub.
I'm not trying to beat you up with this but I would never want to see this happen to you again. Just remember the next time it happens to check first and treat it as an extra once you've realized that there was a problem so you can protect yourself, so put it in your contarct.
If you do notice it before hand and point it out to the homeowner and tell them that there header is sagging and is undersized and will not support the new roof load and they say don't worry about it because I don't want to disturd my existing walls and ceiling, then walk away from the job because you know your doing the wrong thing and it will come back to bite you in your arse.
If it were to go to court and the judge asks you since your the one that designed it why didn't you make sure the header was structurally sound and strong enough to handle the new roof load, what would you say?
He'll tell you that you should've had an Architect or Engineer in there or you should've known not to add another roof on top of a 10' header. Even if in your state you don't need an Architect or Engineer you still shouldn't have added another roof on top of this header.
Joe Carola
Edited 8/31/2005 8:31 am ET by FramerJoe
Joe,
If the sag was the source of this ugliness then the same effect would be obvious on the bottom edge of the fascia as well as on the top. A quick look at the pics I posted, especially the one Mike just reposted will show most anyone that the shingles are swooping up over a pulled and twisted drip edge. It is not the roof framing that is causing this.
There is 1/2" deviation over a ten foot run of roof... this deviation only shows near the bottom of the roof while as we approach the ridge, the deviation dissappears (of course).
The deviation was not noticed by me or the homeowner prior to the framing start. it was picked up/visible only after the sheathing was on yet it was still quite minor. I stick framed with 2x8x16'. heck, there is commonly a half-inch deviation between the crowns of one board to the next.
Furthermore, when I drew the framing plan, I had a copy of the original prints for the house (from the 1950's). I consulted with my local building commisioner on how best to tackle the problem and we came up with a solution that was later reviewed and approved by the building commisioner in the customer's town. Nobody felt that we were facing a problem with the header or any other structural element of the design.
There was no willy-nilly plan-drawing taking place.
There was no apparent reason to suspect that the header was inadequate or unsound in the first place.
If the header should fail after we built the roof, there would certainly be the prospect of culpability on my part but that is not the case.
I have to take exception with anyone who feels that a 1/2" swale over a 10' section of roof would cause the appearance that is present with the roofing.
Nobody said that the roofer should shim out the roof plane for a lousy half-inch swale over a 10' span. What WAS said was that if he put on his stinking drip edge the right way, the shingles wouldn't be lifting and giving the apearance of a huge structural defect that does not exist.
http://www.peteforgovernor.com
Joe, the header is not a 10' span. It's already been established that the inside shows a very minor 1/4" dip.
The way I see it is there is a 5' window, flanked by a couple of 30" windows. There are studs/jacks between them. That siding has to be nailed to something!
blue
good stuff, Blue, but I wouldn't go so far aas to say that " It's already been established that the inside shows a very minor 1/4" dip."It has been stated,but definitely not "established"And what shows on a sheetrocked finish inside ahs nothing to do with what really exists in the framing.Still, it could be that Framer and I are over-guessing the structural inadequacies of that header. maybe it was installed with crown down and hasn't move since. Maybe it is only a quarter inch or so that amplifies to a half inch at the far outside of the overhang.one thing keeps bouncing back intoimy mind while readiong all this. That we each and all ahve soem diff interpretations based on our background. For instance, I focused strongly on the sloppy roofing job, because i would never expect to get paid for work like that, and I would not pay a asub for shingling something that sloppily. Had I been shingling that job I would have done what I've done a hundred times over dips - shimed and then laid a straight metal edge, and run my shingles to a chaulk line. It would have never shown.One of the guys who firsttaught me how to set metal edge gave me some good advice that sticks still. This was on tracts in Florida, where every one had a garage atached and concrete apron leading to the garage door. He said that this run right here from garage to the front door has to be perfect. Because it is what catches the owners eye every single day when he drives home. If it is ugly and not right, it will eat at him and he will not be able to enjoy his house and start looking for other flaws. It's the first impression thing. If he then goes in the door in a bad mood from having to own such an ugly house, he will then kick the dog, beat the wife, and yell at the kids. You can make your mistakes on the back of the house, but this entry sighting has to be perfect or you could be responsible for somebody raising amonsterThe whole spiel was a hyperbole`, but it drove home the point. The HO does have a need to enjoy looking at what he owns. Even if it is a fault of some other guy, we each do our best with what we are handed, and it generally comes out OK. still, it does sound like the HO and the roofer have dumped on pete so it ain't hard to understand why he's got his back up. But he'll learn from it.
Welcome to the Taunton University of Knowledge FHB Campus at Breaktime. where ... Excellence is its own reward!
Piffin, I think you and I are on the same page here.
I too preach the value of first impressions. I've always demanded everything from the curb to the front door to be perfect. It does indeed set the tone.
I too would have shimmed that area if I was shingling it. I probably would have shimmed it with shingles, but I'm curious, what method would you use on a 1/2" dip in ten feet?
blue
CEDAR SHINGLES - cause I always have them aplenty for things like this, but when I was subbing just roofs, I would have just used from the composition shingle stock on hand right there, folded at the one third so they seetp down over 8", then another full 12" one if needed.
Welcome to the Taunton University of Knowledge FHB Campus at Breaktime. where ... Excellence is its own reward!
This problem isn't specifically a remodeling problem."
Jeff, I run into exactly this same situation in about 50% of the new work we do. We dangle our overhangs on the wall and they often dip and doodle all over the place till we set the trusses or rafters. We use the trusses and rafters to effectively brace the overhang in it's final resting position.
It's not uncommon to have a significant deviation on u-shaped ranches where the garage meets the house. There are a variety of reasons, but the most common is that the block layers have a harder time getting a true flat foundation than the poured wall guys. In any event, if the overhang continues past the garage, and it doesn't line up perfectly with the house trusses, we have some boogerin' to do.
Another common situation is trusses that deviate from the true plane. They might be manufactured wrong or an offset situation might create a bad situation and the lessor of two evils result in bulges and dips of the roofs. When these situation happen, boogerin' is the answer.
Pete's roof needed some boogerin. I can tell from the front view that it didn't need much boogerin at all.
You seem to be saying that remodeling is a type of job that sometime forces you to leave something looking less than stellar. I agree, but I wouldn't agree in this situation. Pete was putting a new roof substructure on, not just the shingles. When the roof substructure is being installed, a competent carpenter has all the advantages available to deliver an entirely new-looking, straight product. Essentially, he can encapsulate the entire existing overhang and recreate a perfectly straight new product on the outside, even though the inside of the old projection might be going willy nilly.
I clearly outlined exactly how I'd approach that job. I can clearly see that the dip is minor, yet significant. I also can see that the ridge is reasonably straight and doesn't telegraph any dips, therefor the fascia could easily have been tweaked to mirror and parrallel that ridge.
You cabinet guys might think you have the corner on remodeling roofs, but I think you'd probably just say nothing if you knew how many of these types of roof re-frames I've done in my career. I'm positive that the number of rafters that I've tweaked to old construction would number in the thousands, not hundreds. I only mention my experience level regarding the fitting of new rafters to old roofs because you seem to be questioing my wisdom regarding such.
And no, I wouldn't string this roof. It is much too small. I would however lean a two story ladder at one end and sight the entire length. I easily can sight 40' and this house is 40 or less. There isn't a cold chance in heck that I would have missed that dip on that overhang.
Also, I don't cut off my blade guard to save seconds. Take yours off and work with it like that for 30 years and you'll discover the true reasons why it's not there.
Have fun picking the cotton out of yer crack.
blue
btw ... the pics ...
very nice shots of new construction.
again ... make the jump ... then get back to me.
Jeff Buck Construction
Artistry In Carpentry
Pittsburgh Pa
Blue,
I wouldn't get mad at anyone that I am asking their honest opinion of... even if they are wrong <G>
The roofer was hired by the HO who acted as the GC.
The dip was 1/2 inch over 10 feet. that dip is only that pronounced nearest the fascia edge... as I approach the ridge, the dip quickly goes away.
Also, the roof below (that I built over) was sheathed so I was standing on it not in it where I might have had a better look across the lower plane of the framing. If you could notice a 1/2" deviance over 10' as I described above, you are a better eye than I am. Heck, just the natural crowns of 2x8x16' can differ by 1/2" from board to board.
Did you look at any of the pics I posted on this?
http://www.peteforgovernor.com
Pete, thank you for not taking offense at my comments. I will readily admit that I might indeed be wrong. At this point, I'm a sideline quarterback.
I did look at all the pictures.
The picture that stands out the most for me is the "overall view". In it, I see the dip of the roof, but maybe I'm just seeing the out of alignment shingles and it's creating an optical illussion. But, I'm also making comment on this situation based on your testimony that there is in fact a 1/2" dip in a ten foot section.
First, I'd like to say that overall, the project looks great. The rear roof looks spectacular except for that one dip and it will be a non-issue once the gutters are installed. The flat spot at the bottom will wear out prematurely, but nothing in remodeling is perfect and even if I noticed that, I would still pay you and the roofer. I never expect perfection and this situation is no different.
However, I would not accept that dip and doodle, in the rought, before shingles, if I had framed it.
You've mentioned two things that you might have to rethink. 1) you leave the sheathing 1/2 to 3/4" back of the fascia. 2) Your comment "Also, the roof below (that I built over) was sheathed so I was standing on it not in it where I might have had a better look across the lower plane of the framing. " tells a lot about what/where/when/why this situation occurred. It is a reason, but not an excuse.
Here's what I teach/require of my grasshoppers. The sheathing must not extend beyond the outside edge of the fascia. It also must get all the way to the fascia and be nailed every 6" into it. I don't want to see any daylight between the sheathing and the fascia after were done nailing it. Often, the rookies fail to meet that demand and I'll let a 1/4" slide, but if I see a 3/4 " gap, someone is going up there with a sawzall or powersaw and reworking the edge. I've made guys snap lines and cut out the first 12" and then re-install the sheathing so that it meets the fascia. I know the metal drip edge would span 3/4", but there are other issues at stake and when the fascia get opened back up and exposed, there's usually some more tweaking to do to the overhang itself.
So, my suggestion would be to tighten up your sheathing standards at the eave line.
The second thing you mentioned about standing on the roof and not being able to sight the plain is oh-so-common occurence with all my grasshopppers. I am a stickler about sighting walls, overhangs, and other items. I insist that the eyeball be placed on one end, not in the middle. Each and every time I teach someone to straighten up an overhang, I tell them that step #1 is to sight the overhang from end to end. I then ask them to sight it for me and tell me what they see. 90guys out of a hundred immediately bend down (we are usually standing on the plates between trusses) where ever they stand and put there eye kind of close to the fascia even though they may be 10 feet from the end. The other 10 guys don't even bother to bend over-they just remain standing upright and sight the overhang from 6' up and 10 feet from the end.
Both groups are dead wrong!
It doesn't take a genius to undertand that the 90 guys might be sighting from a faulty starting point. The other 10 guys probably are too scared to bend over up in the air, but that's okay, I teach them to sight it off a ladder if that's what they prefer.
The key to beautiful overhangs is putting your eye at one end of the eve and seeing the entire length. Anyone that shortcuts this most important step is playing the "hope" game. They are hopeing that the overhang is straight. You didn't set up a ladder on one end and sight the overhang from end to end and now the results are in.
You played the hope game and lost. I've played it on many occasions and sometimes I win, sometimes I lose. When I lose, I assess the situation and decide whether to fix it or leave it, depending on many things. If I was doing the roofing, I might be inclined to tweak it when I shingled it. If I was doing the coil, and the roof, I'd be even more inclined towork with it. If I was working for an inspector type guy, I might not risk leaving it even for one night. In remodeling especially, many things come into play.
Getting back to the roof: it doesn't surprise me that the dip disappears rapidly as it approaches the ridge. Logically speaking, the 1/2" dip is reduced to 1/4" at the midpoint of the roof, assuming the ridge is level and straight. Not many people can discern a 1/4" dip in a roof with dimensional shingles. Also, your claim that the rafters might wander by 1/2" is true, but again, I don't sheath over 1/2 " dips in roofs without thinking about scabbing, shimming or ripping. When I'm laying the osb, I'm alert for major deviation between adjoining rafters and deal with them on a case by case manner as they appear. It's easy to see the dips and doodles if you are looking for them.
Lastly, I'll say this. I've done many layovers like this. I've done some on apartment dutch style semi-flat roofs that wandered as much as three inches from straight. It is challenging to fit rafters to rolling existing roofs, but that why we get paid the big bucks!
I hope you don't take as much offense to my comments/suggestions as buck has. I've always told my guys, "if it looks right, it is right". This one doesn't look right. The shingler has excabberated the problem by running the shingles lower our of alignment. Maybe to create an effective look, you might have to just trim the shingles overhanging the drip edge at the bottom. Sometimes all it takes is a tiny bit of tweaking to create an illusion of straight.
It might be ncessary to meet the shingler out there and work with him to get that drip and shingle course lined up. I know it's a pain and probably not your responsibility, but since you framed a roof with a 1/2" dip, you are right smack dab in the middle of it, with no really viable excuses. Its time you and the shingler to work together and give that client what he deserves: a straight looking eave edge.
blue
pete... y in the world you wanted to use this forum to address the issue is ????
however... it looks like the defect is of a minor nature and easy to fix..
so fix it... the roofer screwed the pooch.. most of the defect can be corrected by straightening the drip edge and shinlges
View Image
the first course has to follow the drip edge... the 2d and succeeding courses should straighten everything out..
the underlying rafter tails may ....or may ....not need shimming
View Image
and the above may need some rafter shims or might just be straightened out by the roofing...
this would seem to be a case of the GC not coordinating the entire job...
Mike Smith Rhode Island : Design / Build / Repair / Restore
Edited 8/31/2005 10:31 am ET by MikeSmith
Mike,
I can tell you that all of what the customer is bent about is the way that damb drip edge looks.
It is an exteremly easy fix and I suggested to do so but the customer wants to hear nothing of it.
If you look at that pic you will see the roof lays real nice until it hits that bottom course where it swoops up. that is what is causing the look that the customer thinks is the framing. It is not.
Look at the bottom of the fascia and then compare with the top. the roof isn't built like that, it's roofed like that. The half inch sag doesn't add up to a hill of beans in why the affected area looks like crapola.
Why did I post it here? because I wanted some honest feedback.
This was not my roofer. I had nothing to do with the roof. this was the customer's roofer, he acted as GC and subbed only the roof framing and sheathing to me.
http://www.peteforgovernor.com
I'm wondering why the inspector did not insist that the header be replaced, or if he/she even asked if the header would hold the added weight.
Maybe this HO acting as GC didn't pull a permit????
If that is so, maybe remind him that if this ends up in court the inspectors will surely find out about it, and could then force him to replace the header whether he wants his interior disturbed or not.
Just my $.02
Bowz
A permit was pulled, plans were reviewed and approved and inspections were completed.<!----><!----><!---->
<!----><!---->
I just went out to assess the situation more thoroughly. I also photographed the current conditions for my records and any future reference. I will post those pics with explainations soon.
http://www.peteforgovernor.com
Pete is there language in the contract about not disturbing the interior? I think otherwise in court The HO may come down with a severe case of selective memory. Buckism: Will show you the the way
Don, it might just be me, but every time I see your sign-on, it looks like "donk" to me. Like, "don't donk your head on that low hanging beam." I liked Hammerlaw better. :)
Pete, sounds like you got a prick ho. He wanted you to half-#### the job to cover up the problems. Then he could have unloaded the house to someone down the road and they wouldn't have had ANY idea of the problem until they get his with an expensive repair. Wonder what other 'great' repairs he has covered up?
But in this case, I join the CYA chorus.
Where did you say this client came from? Not someone intentionally trying to blacken your political career, is it?jt8
"Someone's sitting in the shade today because someone planted a tree a long time ago." --Warren Buffett
John, Thanks for pointing that out to me. The thought never entered my mind - 'til you said it.
Don.... Koch
Hi Joe,
I understand your point. Unfortunately we have the problem now and it has to be dealt with.
I have no problem fixing the header but the customer refuses, saying that I should have shimmed the rafters instead to float out the swale. Had I done that, it would create other problems.
http://www.peteforgovernor.com
Well this certainly puts the guy that referred you in an odd position doesn't it?
Remodeling Contractor just outside the Glass City.
Quittin' Time