Some of you may remember in another thread I mentioned this situation. A builder claims my company is liable for a poor roof design that caused a roof leak.
Today I contacted the HO and went out for a look. Attached to the file you should see a “front view” to give you an overall idea of what the house looks like.
You’ll also see a file called “right cricket”. It’s on the right side of the raised gable in the center of the house.
It was taken while I was freezing my butt of and shaking on an extension ladder, so it’s not perfect. But the rather low sloped cricket the roofer put in there actually slopes AWAY from the vertical surface a bit. This side does not appear to be leaking.
More in the next post…
How many Frenchmen does it take to change a light bulb?
One. He holds the bulb and all of Europe revolves around him.
Replies
But the rather low sloped cricket the roofer put in there actually slopes AWAY from the vertical surface a bit. This side does not appear to be leaking.
If that doesn't leak it must be a small miracle.
O.K., now a look at the LEFT side of the raised gable. This is where it's leaking.
I tried 3 different views. It was hard to hang on to the ladder, keep the camera level, freeze my butt off, and take a decent picture. But hopefully this will get the point across.
It's hard to tell in the pictures, but the cricket actually slopes TOWARDS the vertical surface. I suspect this is part of the problem.
As you can see, someone has made a couple of attempts to patch it up. The builder claims he's patched it 3 times. He told me he put rubber roofing under the shingles. Roofing isn't my best talent, so I don't really know what that would accomplish.
I got a quick look inside, but didn't ask the HO if I could take pictures. It's pretty obvious it's leaking from the mold, dark blotches, and peeling drywal tape.
.
I'm curious to hear what you roofers think - Is it actually possible to keep a cricket from leaking that has such a low slope to it? Looks to me like it's only sloped about 1/12 or so.
Sometimes you're lucky.
Sometimes you're just good 'n lucky.
yup it was the trusses that are causing the leaks...
rough framing can do that too...
how does somebody think they can pass the buck on this one...
proud member of the FOR/FOS club...
Life is not a journey to the grave with the intention of arriving safely in a pretty and well preserved body, but rather to skid in broadside, thoroughly used up, totally worn out, and loudly proclaiming
WOW!!! What a Ride!
Might be gald it leaked. Now they have a good reason to pull that big Aluminum Eyesore off of the side of the house.
They just wrinkle and tear it up some and put it back on...
proud member of the FOR/FOS club...
Life is not a journey to the grave with the intention of arriving safely in a pretty and well preserved body, but rather to skid in broadside, thoroughly used up, totally worn out, and loudly proclaiming
WOW!!! What a Ride!
I have dealt with quite a few similar issues (poor initial design) where a valley dumps against a corner. The way I have had luck with is actually framing a saddle that creates a small (12-18") fascia that is visible and framing a 3/12 or so (as much as possible). Use Grace on the entire thing and up the wall and tall and long step flashing. The rubber that the builder could have worked if properly installed but that isn't possible because it is shingled over and now there a nail holes from the shingles
Boss,
I don't see that as the truss company's fault. Our roofer told us he prefers 4-12 and above for crickets. I usually get it around a 6-12 to be safe.
Am I missing something. You show pictures of the front of the house but details of an entirely different situation. I don't see any windows on those gables. I do see one of the worst roof designs I've seen in quite awhile. I would have taken one look at the prints for the house and asked if they were joking. I hope it never snows or rains there.I think I would tell the owner to rent a house trailer while most of roof is taken off. Tell them to hire a contractor that has built a house beforeBeat it to fit / Paint it to match
"You show pictures of the front of the house but details of an entirely different situation. "
Not at all. If you look at the front of the house, you'll notice the center gable is 3' higher. This creates a vertical surface on both the right and left sides of that gable.
The picture called "right cricket" is on the right side of the gable. The pictures called "left cricket" are on the LEFT side of that gable.
"I don't see any windows on those gables."
Why would there be?
" I would have taken one look at the prints for the house and asked if they were joking."
I don't have that luxury. I'm an employee, not self employed.
A woman's mind is cleaner than a man's because she changes it more often.
Hammer:
I think that what you're seeing is the window to the right of the front door on the main Gable. It looks like there are little "wing walls" (right jpg) that are suppose to keep the water from running off the roof and down on the front porch. Am I seeing that right Boss?
BILL
Edited 1/29/2005 8:06 am ET by wrohden
"It looks like there are little "wing walls" (right jpg) that are suppose to keep the water from running off the roof and down on the front porch."
Yup. Maybe this closeup will show the left "wing wall" a little better.
I wouldn't have turned out the way I was if I didn't have all those old-fashioned values to rebel against. [Madonna]
Boss,I know this will change the front but I had a situation years ago like this and I extended both sides of the front roof down and built a higher cricket above with at least a 5/12 and the front walls and rakes on both sides continued down and the sider and roof were able to side it and flash it properly.When framing a house or addition it's up to me as the framer to install crickets and when I come across a difficult situation I talk to the GC and the roof and the three of us go on the roof and discuss what looks best and the best way to build the cricket for the roofer so that he can flash it properly without any leaks. Being that this is the front of the house and there has to be changes made that has to be taken into consideration and now the cricket becomes another roof line that has to look like another roof line and not a cricket but this all has to be worked out. Yes in my eyes it was a poor design but it all has to be worked out before the building process and if the GC doesn't notice and the Framer notice the problem then the both of them are at fault. I'm a framer and I should know enough that a cricket should be some where and if not there will be a leak if I don't and just frame it without a cricket the a competent roofer should pick up the mistake and also the GC. We all have to work together as a TEAM and try to do what's right instead of blaming everyone else. So for this guy to blame your truss company for the leak is wrong but him to say it was a poor design he is right but where he went wrong is his incompetence as a GC and his Framers incompetence as a Framer and his Roofer also. Between all of them they could have fixed it with no problems what so ever but a few changes.Boss, this might be an option for you. This is how I handled it years ago of course it was ok with the GC, Homeowner and Roofer.Joe Carola
joe.. that's the same conclusion i arrived at.
.....extend the rafters down to the roof
http://forums.taunton.com/tp-breaktime/messages?msg=53335.20Mike Smith Rhode Island : Design / Build / Repair / Restore
It works as you know and doesn't look to bad.Did you notice on the front view above the right garage door they have a return there and no where else. In that situation you end it and make it match the other side and the rest of the house or if you want put the return on but put them every where else.Joe Carola
joe.. i never shifted that far to the right.. man.. makes you wonder WHY they didn't do that on the entry gable..
View Image
seems like the elegant solution to me... if they do the same thing to the entry gable rafters and build their blind crickets.. end of problem.. AND it'll look better..
damn thing looks like Ichabod Crane sticking up like that..
up periscope !Mike Smith Rhode Island : Design / Build / Repair / Restore
'Zactly what I would do.Good thinkin' there, Joe.
What the HECK was I thinking?
D***n, I just noticed that little gutter & downspout....OMG.....this one belongs to the architect or the GC.....hang tough......
Boss, I certainly don't see any truss design problems creating a leak. I do see some poor choices made by the framer though.
The major mistake is actually the sum of two major mistakes. First, the saddle (you call it a "cricket") is too low pitched. Secondly, the saddle is squeezed to a point. When you combine those two factors and add in a significant amount of water, somethings bound to leak.
I have found myself looking at similar situations a thousand times. First and foremost, we always run the saddle out past the wall. This often creates a small mono gable that some people might disapprove of, but I dont care. It won't leak or create an ice dam the way I do it. I run the saddle out about 12", but will accept anything 4" or more. I also try to make all the saddles at least a 5/12. Anything less than that is a leak waiting to happen in our snowy area.
In Michigan, I wouldn't make any attempt to fix this leak unless I was allowed to rebuild a steeper, longer saddle. I'd just leave the old one where it is and build a nice steep long one that emptied 12" past the house.
blueJust because you can, doesn't mean you should!
Warning! Be cautious when taking any framing advice from me. There are some in here who think I'm a hackmeister...they might be right! Of course, they might be wrong too!
I think there is enough blame to go around! It is a poor design to start with and only gets worse from there. The shingle roofing will never keep out the water. Heavy rain, snow, or ice, will back up water. If one of my crew did this they would be fired on the spot. The suggestions about using a flame bonded membrane, or a heat wielded membrane in this area and up the wall is the only way to stop the leak. This will require removing the roofing, flashing, soffit, and possible even modify the framing to allow the membrane to run up the roof a sufficient distance.
To be honest with you, I don't care much for the roof design myself, but that is only a small part of the problem.
BTW, I didn't know that you guys designed roofs. I thought you just designed trusses to fit the house as designed by archies, HOs and builders. If you did create a design like that with the major valleys dumping up against a wall like that, cricket or no, you missed a step there
But the builder was the one with say so ion the actuall construction so his is the liability, as far as I am concerned.
Hope you don't think I am topo hard on you for the design issue there, but you ain't seen nuthin' yet! Wait'll I lay into the "roofer" Does he call that metal crap laying all over there 'flashing'? He may have had a hard job handed to him to begin with, but he sure made it look worse! Must have cut those pieces with his eyes closed. Corners are VERY poorly fitted as rthough he was asking for it to find a way to leak. The verticle leg of the pan piece that shows in the left is only about 3" I use four inches minimum, but never on such a bad situation as this was. The volumn of water cascading down that major valley and slapping up against that wall could easily back up six inches high on a storm. Did you ask if the leaks were more pronounced in a storm, wind, heavy rain, etc? or same all the time? T|hings like that can indicate things to look for.
I don't know why the builder says he put rubber roofing under the shingles. First thing this says to me is that he recognized from the get-go that he had a bad situation there. But rubber roofing would do notjhing to help solve the problem. poiking holes in expensive material does not stop leaks. Maybe he meant that he put ice and water shield under the shingles. Calling it rubber tells me how little he knows abourt the products so he likely chose the wrong thing and applied it as sloppily as the roofer did with the flashings.
GAG! If he did that bad on things that show, how poorly do you suppose he did where it doesn't show?
There is another possible problem here. Those are heavy lam archy shingles laid in a lapped valley. IMO, that is a poor choice of valley style for lam shingles, especially if installed in anything less than 60° weather, cause they have a tendency to separate. That valley had better be very well backed up with sub materials. how those materials lapp and lay over on the way down to the cricket problem may have something to do with the leaks. Water could be backing up three or four feet above the critical area and then finding a way in at the base.
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"BTW, I didn't know that you guys designed roofs. I thought you just designed trusses to fit the house as designed by archies, HOs and builders."
We only design trusses. But the builder is looking for a scapegoat with deep pockets.
"GAG! If he did that bad on things that show, how poorly do you suppose he did where it doesn't show?"
Well...
I heard he forgot to have them put in a floor drain in the basement near the furnace. So there was no place to run the condensate drains.
So he busted a hole in the floor with a sledge and ran the water in there.
But that's O.K., isn't it ??? (-:
BTW - I'm curious to hear your thoughts on the question I thre out - Is it even POSSIBLE to seal up a cricket on such a low sloped cricket?
If you think talk is cheap, try hiring a lawyer.
Did some one say "pass the buck" ?
Not being a roofer but roll roofing is just that...roll it out,no nails. The nails holding the shingles are holes.
I didn't do it....the buck does NOT stop here.
Kinda hard after the fact, my roofer would have put a torch on membrane that wrapped up the wall a foot or so before shingling in the rest and before siding /flashing.There shouldn't be shingles in the lo-slope valley part.If he can't get it water tight he won't roof it. my 2 cents ........Rik......
That's part of a solution, but there is still that fact that you have the tie in form one side laying right in where the valley from the other dormer flows water. So it is not just a cricket/low slope problem, but a flashing requirement in a place where it is almost impossible to flash it good enough. but this hack could have at least tried...
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I don't know...I think that if I were faced with a roof design like that, before starting, I would call the GC - "We got a problem here Joe..."
Welcome to the Taunton University of Knowledge FHB Campus at Breaktime. where ... Excellence is its own reward!
Have they not heard of a $40 item called a condensate pump?
That's a "charming" setup, but an invitation to disaster. I'd say the fault is with the archie (or whoever did the design) for setting up a no-win situation.
"I'd say the fault is with the archie (or whoever did the design) for setting up a no-win situation."
The builder is too tight to actually PAY someone to draw a blueprint. From him we get a picture cut out of a magazine for a floor plan, and hand-drawn sketch on 8.5X11 paper with a few exterior dimensions.
Just think how much money's he's saved on this house........
For every action, there is an equal and opposite government program.
Remove the center roof, frame the main roof down to match the existing facia line, replace the front door and window because they look too tall for the new roof line. Repair the two smaller roofs and reshingle the entire roof so the new shingles match.
Boss, this is info for the home owner only.
"Remove the center roof, frame the main roof down to match the existing facia line..."
I doubt the GC or HO would go for that. The center gable was made higher because the ceilings in the front of the house are at that elevation.
The GC wants a cheap, fast fix. (Or someone else to pay for it) The HO doesn't know what to do.
If all the nations in the world are in debt, where did all the money go?
There is no cheap fast fix. Sorry
Welcome to the Taunton University of Knowledge FHB Campus at Breaktime. where ... Excellence is its own reward!
"There is no cheap fast fix."
I knew that, but the builder doesn't. And the HO has no idea what's going on, other than that she has wet, moldy drywall in her office.
I didn't really start this thread loking for a solution - It's not really my problem. (Unless he sues us, I guess) I mentioned this situation in another thread, and had said I would post details.
I had asked if it was POSSIBE to keep a cricket in this situation only because I was trying to learn something. In my limited roofing experience, this isn't something I've dealt with before.
Sorry if I wasn't clear about this up front.
Why isn't there mouse-flavored cat food?
sure, it's possible... you need the right guy to do it....
and it involves framing, roofing , flashing & sidingMike Smith Rhode Island : Design / Build / Repair / Restore
What a CF. Evidently the GC is from the school of.... if it can be sketched on paper, it'll work...so let's get on with it. Besides all the other stuff that's already been pointed out....are those little sections of gutter really expected to handle all the water coming off those valleys? This roof might actually function if a tent was erected over the whole house.Despite the fact that this is indeed a total CF and a fine example of poor design and workmanship, I think I may see where the water is getting thru which causes the apparent leak of the moment. It's the left side where the current leak is, yes? If you look at the flashing that's lying on the roof and bent up under the counterflash on the house wall, as Piffin pointed out.........that's only maybe 3" tall..might go 4". But if you look at how the top edge of that flashing is cut, it doesn't appear to follow the slope of the roof line at all. Consequently it would get shallower mighty fast until it would reach zero about where we see they stopped laying shingles back up under there. I'll bet the torrents of water gushing up against that wall are forced up under and are spilling down the backside of this ever diminishing piece of flashing "wanna be". Might not be the only source of leak, but if looking for a major culprit, that's what I'd investigate first based upon what I can see in the pics.Why do I get the feeling that this house will be a continuing nightmare for all the roofers in that area for generations to come? At the least, it'll test their foresight, as well as their analytical and roofing skills. Might drive some of 'em to drink heavily.Edit: And the right side is just as bad as the left in functional execution. It's just a neater/more presentable job. Kinda like comparing a big load in a pair of plain white diapers to the same sized load in a pair of floral diapers. Love the way these guys handle the corner details on their drip-edge. Nice.
Knowledge is power, but only if applied in a timely fashion.
Edited 1/29/2005 11:36 am ET by GOLDHILLER
I was stunned in the front picture . It gets worse as everyone has pointed out.
If someone qualified tells her how bad this is , she should sue everybody on a blanket suit. Truss company included. This act was an abortion of a lot of people who should have caught it. The GC in my opinion needs to own this house .
If I were her advisor I would tell her to sue for the whole place , land , chickens , everything. The quickest way to settle this one is in court. High dollar incompetency. This builder needs to be put out of business.
Tim Mooney
"If someone qualified tells her how bad this is, she should sue everybody on a blanket suit. Truss company included."
I don't agree. If you try to make truss companies responsible for roof leaks, what's next? How about the framer? And the drywaller? The drywall guy should have know that his drywall was gonna get wet when the roof leaked, right?
How about the shingle manufacturer? They didn't warn him not to frame a cricket like that. And how about the company that sold him the materials?
You could go on forever.
Truss companies aren't architects or roofers. This is out of the realm of reason.
The HO has a contract and written warranty with the builder - No one else. I learned this morning that the GC did the framing and roofing himself with a couple of unskilled laborers he hired. I don't see how anyone but him is responsible.
In our civilization, and under our republican form of government, intelligence is so highly honored that it is rewarded by exemption from the cares of office.
Maybe this view might work.Joe Carola
I think Joe's solution is the closest you will get to a fast cheap solution that actually works. Plus it will look better than it does now.
Joe, that suggestion compromises the original design intent. Sometimes form does take precedent over function.
blueJust because you can, doesn't mean you should!
Warning! Be cautious when taking any framing advice from me. There are some in here who think I'm a hackmeister...they might be right! Of course, they might be wrong too!
"Joe, that suggestion compromises the original design intent. Sometimes form does take precedent over function."I know it does as I said in my post to Boss but obviously these guys aren't competent enough to do it right in the first place. Even if they raise the cricket higher as you suggested it would have to go higher then the dormer fascia and into the dormer valley besides the original design intent wasn't good anyway. Why design a roof where you have to put a cricket in the front of a house to see.Joe Carola
Because the seriousness is just not the leaking .
There will be problems with this roof its whole life . Whenever somthing this bad happens it often takes a jury to iron it out and hopefully make it right to the homeowner. The whole roof is an injustice. She should not be stuck with it .
This house would not have recieved a CO here. Do you know if there was a building inspector involved?
Sometimes everyone involved are sued and they all come to court to make their own case . The jury can award partial judgments I believe if different parties are negligent. To me the general stands responsible , but maybe not all of it. So then ,others may help to pay the claim. The reason I mentioned it was that I was a part of a suit as a sub. To me they had no right to bring me into it , but they sued me in a blanket suit . I hired a lawyer and he told me if I was negligent , I could be ordered to pay a portion of the damages that was asked. I defended it and I didnt pay anything , but they sued me just the same and the jury heard it.
Just think about several builders , an archy , a building offical , etc . testifying and saying things like the guys are saying in this post . That should award a huge judgement. The leaking is only scatching the rusty barrell. I think shes got a law suit.
Tim Mooney
Edited 1/29/2005 5:19 pm ET by TIMMOONEY52
Edited 1/29/2005 6:02 pm ET by TIMMOONEY52
Tim,You say that the structure would not have gotten a CO in your area. On what grounds? Would you cite that the cricket is pitched less than the shingle mfg. recommends? Or that the whole assembly is not installed in a "workman-like manner"?
Jon Blakemore
The builder would have submitted elevation drawings as required along with a sealed truss packet before the building permit would have been issued [ I put that into effect]. I would have seen it just as it struck all us in the face as we first glanced at it . I would have required archtectural stamped drawings at that point of all elevations and put it in that court. Im not qualified to render judgements but I can ask for what ever documents I feel is necesary. These plans would have went through the whole show.
Sometimes other people are used to turn work down or put their stamp on it . Makes an inspectors job a lot easier.
Tim Mooney
"Do you know if there was a building inspector involved?"
Ther isn't a building inspector or building department within 40 miles of here.
Women... Can't live with 'em... Can't shoot 'em. (Al Bundy)
Tim, that is such a huge overeaction. Their is nothing wrong with the design, only the execution.
A competent roofer can easily make this waterproof. The other way is to vertically raise each cricket about 6".
We do these everyday here in Mich.
blueJust because you can, doesn't mean you should!
Warning! Be cautious when taking any framing advice from me. There are some in here who think I'm a hackmeister...they might be right! Of course, they might be wrong too!
You've got a lot of competant roofers here disagreeing with you. it might be barely possible with a disclaimer, but definitely not easily like you say
Welcome to the Taunton University of Knowledge FHB Campus at Breaktime. where ... Excellence is its own reward!
"Tim, that is such a huge overeaction. Their is nothing wrong with the design, only the execution. "
Blue thats why lawyers make a living and they keep building court rooms. It takes two people disagreeing and a jury with a judge that gets paid. Happens in every town , every day across the nation. Its big business.
Tim Mooney
Boss,
This isn't aimed at you---so I hope you will excuse me---but---
ha,ha,ha,ha,ha,ha,ha,ha,ha,ha,ha,ha,ha,ha, chortle ,snicker---er, HA,Ha,Ha,HA,HA,HA,HA,HA
sorry---but those pictures are too,TOO funny.
Horrifically BAD design---but I don't see how it's remotely your fault.
Clearly stems from a phenomenally BAD floor plan and over all design.
really,REALLY bad.
You maybe SHOULD have mentioned it to the guy ,once you designed the roof framing---as a courtesy.
BTW----why would ANY roofer get involved with such an abortion?
SURE---it could be done watertight----but I doubt this guy (GC) is gonna pay enough to make it worth my while.
Do you mind if I print some of those pictures out????? I know some guys that need a giggle.
Stephen
Well, it isn't a cricket, it's basically a gutter, and it should have been built like one.
Boss,
All kidding aside I once worked for one of if not the largest Roofing and Siding companies in Northern New Jersey. Last six months just fixing leaks.
I can make that not leak. Cheap too. Just won't be pretty, correct or long lasting. Maybe thats what the builder deserves. To go back and fix it every three or four years until the guy is too old to climb a ladder.
boss... as blue & piffen have pointed out.. the fix was half-a*sed..
first it looks more like a funnel that a flashing... and the execution sucks
View Image
those are blind valleys, there is no reason for them to be shingled... they would work a lot better with either copper, membrane , a torch down, or a modified peel & stick
no one can see those valleys unless they get on your ladder... so the esthetics are wasted... and his roofing / siding work sucks too..
so .. we start with a stupid design...
we get the wrong spec handed to the roofer ( someone decided that is how it was going to be done )
and no one coordinated the flashing/roofing/siding they were all just trying to make a bad thing better
the design sucks .
the roofing sucks.
the siding sucks.
the flashing sucks.
here's the fix..
strip the siding , roofing and flashing from the dormer and the major roof dumping on the dormer
change the pitch of the crickets... keep it wide at the bottom.... the point it comes to now is creating a dam.... one leaf can plug it.... just a heavy rain can back it up
or... even better..
that dormer sits back from the other two dormers... extend the rafters so they lay on the other two dormers ...... then install a cricket in the valleys
Well ..
for starters ...
I don't like the door and side light not centered under the half round transom ...
then ... I don't like those 1/4 pie's dropped down under that half round ...
and another thing ...
Jeff Buck Construction
Artistry in Carpentry
Pgh, PA
"or... even better..
that dormer sits back from the other two dormers... extend the rafters so they lay on the other two dormers ...... then install a cricket in the valleys"
Got my vote
OK, How about the fact that a valley dumps right smack dab over a garage door? And it looks like that same garage might be creazting another deaad valley, ####short one, in the tie to the main roof behind where we can't see it
Or the fact that this is one of those super ugly cosmo houses that place the UTILITY GARAGE in the very front with the most pre-eminence of any part of the house?
It would have been so easy to push that garage over to the right and back a little and make a pleasing facade and avoid alll these problems.....hanging is too good...
Welcome to the
Taunton University of Knowledge FHB Campus at Breaktime.
where ...
Excellence is its own reward!
I'm still getting over the fact coil stock was used as siding!
and flashing ....
and counter flashing ...
all in the same piece!
Jeff Buck Construction
Artistry in Carpentry
Pgh, PA
Boss, that house sure looks good
from the street......
Those close ups, looks like a 10 yr old did it
Keep us up to date on this on how it turns out.
Wouldn't have leaked if it had been stick framed! Seriously, If I'd been called to roof that mess, I'd have walked away. I don't think a "good" roofer could make that work (especially in snow country) and there apparently hasn't been a "good" roofer around. Even if you designed the cricket ( or saddle ), the whole thing from framing to roofing and flashing is poorly executed. Wrong slope with wrong materials, wrong flashing, wrong, wrong, wrong.................
Scissors cut paper. Rock breaks scissors. Paper wraps rock.