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I’m about to have a new roof installed, and have been debating which valley type to go with. The valleys on my current roof failed due mostly to poor craftsmanship – they were completely cut away, exposing just one layer of roll-roofing material. I have decided to go with pre-formed metal valleys, but have a question about installation. Why are the shingles cut away, exposing a large portion of the metal. It seems like there would be greater protection from run-under and better looks if the shingles were laid right up against the center fold, hiding the sides of the valley. Any thoughts?
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Are we talking wood shingles or compo? Shingles cannot be nailed through the valley metal. Therefore, depending on the width of the shingle and the width of the metal, you may have to hold them back to avoid un-nailed areas near the center of the valley.
And, I don't think I need to tell you, "Don't use vinyl shingles."
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Am I nuts! I would NEVER, EVER use vinyl anything on my house! Good point, though.
The shingles are compo.
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Does anyone see a problem with using an Ice & Water Shield product as a valley material and butting or weaving the shingles over it?
*Barry,In our area we use ice gaurd as you describe very frequently.We avoid weaving the valleys like the plague though.The most common style used here is called "closed cut".Some of us still do things a little old fashioned though.I like to bend aluminum W valley and use that with a very narrow exposure. We never nail within 6-8 inches of the center of the valley and the water drains off so fast we usually put a extension on the gutter to prevent overflow.If you put ice gaurd under the W valley flashing you have really good protection although kind of expensive.Of course if you save yourself a callback it was money well spent.I am kind of curious to learn if icegaurd is available as a valley material in the warmer parts of the country? Also what about the gentleman from Australia who sometimes checks in here? Good Luck Stephen
*Chris, you may want to check the archives, as I think we had a 10-15 post discussion on this topic last summer. Not much has changed. To refresh everyone, here are the three types of valleys:1. Open Valley. This is the type that you described and is the most common. its advantages are that you have a nice slick piece of shiny metal to direct water to the gutter system. Ideally, you should have 30 lbs of felt underneath it. The metal valley is actually quite wide, and should be at least 24" on either side of the valley. If not, put flashing underneath it. To respond to one poster's comments, Fire and Ice is pretty standard on valleys in the Midwest, and I would go about 24" as well (perfect, it comes in 48" rolls). The disadvantages of an Open Valley is they look like hell.2. Woven Valley. This type is probably the most weatherproof. One side of the shingles goes through the valley, and the other side is woven into it. Works great, but one tends to get a lot of roofing material toward the top of the valley, and it bunches up. Not a very clean look. Again, 30 lbs of felt, metal flashing and Fire and Ice where you get a lot of water (over 25" annually). 3. Cut Valley, or "California Cut". This is my favorite, and I just love the look. But then, I'm from California. One side of the singles goes throught the valley, and the other side goes up to the valley, and is cut. Again, 30 lbs of felt, metal flashing, and Fire and Ice. I fell in love with Fire and Ice, and use it on the perimeter and valleys of all homes I do. The stuff is expensive, but it is self sealing, and easy to apply. Advantages of this system: great looks. Disadvantages: None, so long as it is well flashed.Note that one must not nail the flashing anywhere near (24") the valleys. Some guys use clips to avoid perforations. I just use extra wide flashing and nail away.You are bound to get a lot of opinions on this subject, so don't be guided by what I say. Just one man's opinion. Good Luck!!!!
*I'm not much of a roofer, so I don't really have a clue what that "Fire and Ice" stuff is. Anybody mind taking a minute to explain it ?Like I keep telling my boss, I was hired for my looks, not what I know.............
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Ron,
What are you a foreman?
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"Ron, What are you a foreman? "
Ya know, that wasn't very nice............(-:
No, Dormer, I'm not a foreman. I used to be in the truss business, but recently started working for a GC. I know a lot about structural stuff, but have a ton of other things to learn about. I know less about roofing than I do about women. That's why I asked the question.
So give me a break, will ya ????
*Chris,Skooter's post is a nice summary of the general methods. If you are planning to use a laminated shingle it will be difficult to form a neat valley usind the closed cut method (or california method as skooter calls it).It can be done but the double thick laminated area tends to crack in all but the hottest weather when bent across the valley of a steeper pitched roof.The W valley really helps with the wood shingle "effect"(although it means the roofers have 2 chances to cut crooked lines per valley) SKOOTER,Do those clips clamp firmly or are they kind of loose to allow for metal expansion?We just nail along the edge of the metal,but the 24" coil stock minus about 2" for the bends means each side of our valley flashing will be nailed about 9" from the center line .Also IS there a brand of icegaurd out there that is 48"? we can only find 36" here. Trying to add to my knowledge,Stephen.
*Ron, you need to go to the post about the "hottie" women.Ther's a gal there that thinks all carpenters are beer belly,ugly pigs.(Just razzing you a little).In our area the brand name is weathershield or weatherguard ice & water shield.I've never heard it called fire and ice as Scooter pointed out.By the way, scooter did an excellent job of describing the various methods of valleys.All three are used in our area(midwest)with the closed cut method becoming the most accepted.Open valleys used to be the most popular,but people are not liking the looks of the valley tin showing.We use the ice and water shield exclusively in the valleys,along with the felt weaving through from both sides,then valley tin on top of that.I have never seen weatherguard in 48" widths,only 36" in our area.
*maj,Save your money and time by picking one material for the valley. Ice and water shield run up the valley in a closed valley needs no metal flashing.Less is more,Jack : )
*ADK,That's what I asked -- can it be used by itself? It appears that there's advantage to a "slick" surface for run-off, which the ice and water shield doesn't have, particularly if it's the grainy kind. And I imagine it's UV sensitive, which is why I mentioned woven or butted shingles to completely the material. I also hate the bare tin look and appreciate the discussion of alternatives.
*Jack, agreed.But, you know,-----old habits are hard to break(cough,cough,),well time for another cig.
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Thanks, Scooter. I think it may have been me that started this thread before - I have been researching roof stuff for several months. I just never can quite get all of my questions answered.
I don't trust composite roofing material not to wear out and leak (I've had major problems with my current roof), so I have decided to go with the metal, even though the roofing contractor uses the CA cut version standard. The metal valley they are going to use is about 24" total width, and they will put down 30lb felt underneath. Does this sound like they are doing it right? So, it looks like the reason for not shingling right up to the center of the metal valley is because the shingles will not stay down if they are not nailed closer. Is this correct?
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Chris:
I wouldn't worry too much about roofing material wearing out, unless you buy the cheap $20 a square stuff.
Flashing is cheap, and roofs wear out in two places: first the valley, and second near the eaves. Flashing, and lots of it, cures premature roofing failures. A good gutter system, and a little Fire and Ice on the edge of the roof fixes the eaves issue.
As to the question on Fire and Ice, it is a rubberized sheet that comes in rolls of 12", 24" 36" and 48", and is manufactured under a lot of different names. Out here we call it Peel and Stick. It is about 1/16th of an inch thick, and quite waterproof. They have several types, including some which they claim is UV resistant, which I don't believe. When you nail into it, the rubberized stuff self seals. I have been told it is equivalent to 60lbs of felt, although that may be overated. I use it on all valleys, any transition between roofs, eaves, and use scraps to wrap it around all perforations in the roof, such as vents and chimneys.
My system is in order of application: CDX (gosh I hope I don't cause a debate about OSB and Ply again); Fire and Ice; 30 lbs of felt; Flashing; and Roofing product. I also cut both ends of the roofing in the California Cut method. With flashing, felt, and Fire and Ice, nothing is going to get through. I agree with the post that high end roofing is too stiff, and it adds little to the waterproofing.
There is a debate as to the order of the Fire and Ice. Some guys like it applied directly to the Plywood, as it is real sticky, and adheres well. Others feel that if you have to re-roof you would want the ability to take it up, which would be easy if applied to the felt. I stick it to the Ply.
The problem with open valleys is that the W flashing is not as wide as I would like, and therefore is usually nailed quite close to the valley. Since there is generally only felt underneath, it develops leaks later. So, if your committed to an open valley, use 30lbs of felt, Fire and Ice, and for good measure, I would put some wide valley flashing under the exposed W channel. Use clips to install the extra flashing or sloppy holes that allow for expansion.
The Fire and Ice will run you about $3-5 a foot, so use it wisely. The extra flashing will also cost you more. Also, take this oportunity to reduce the number of perforations through the roof. Modern construction thinks that it is a waste of time combining vents into one stack, and so new homes look like porcupines, with vents coming right out of the roof, all over the place. Those vents will leak at some point in time, so reducing the number of holes in your roof is generally a good thing. Finally, now is the time to put up a good gutter system. Worn out gutters will back up into your roof, so pick a high quality steel (24 guage) one piece gutter system, and slap 12" of Fire and Ice over the drip edge.
Good Luck!
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Local ( NE PA ) builders lore would have you believe that an open valley will not hold as much gunk ( leaves, pine needles ) as the closed variety. Very seldom do we see open valleys anymore.
In my opinion, the lower the slope, the wider the valley membrane needs to be, whatever it is. Case in point- I've torn off lots of 12/12's that only had an 18" wide, metal valley. Some of these were probably 70 years old, and dated back to the original shake, or slate roof. The original installers made no concession for thermal expansion and contraction. Some of these valleys held up real well, most seemed to be common steel, painted with red ( lead?) paint.
Then we have the 1970's 3/12 valley. I have seen water scoot down one slope, under the shingles, and get around a 36" valley.
Here is my choice for a closed valley, comp. shingles. 5/12 minimum. 12" cheapo roll flashing nailed directly to the sheathing. 30# felt.
one layer 18"-90# roll, one layer 36"- 90#. The double layer of 90# sort of eases the valley paper transmitting through the shingles.
If you can afford the stick'em, get rid of the double layer of 90# and do it. I've used a couple, never heard of fire and ice, "Grace's" is the one for me ( although I think they changed the name ). Sorry Certain Teed, I wouldn't give you a nickle for your's.
I would never do a valley without the metal flashing again. Probably cause I've never successfully dried a roof in using just felt. Guaranteed someone is gonna put a hole in it that you can't easily see.
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Barry,
This thread is getting confused...Closed valleys are protected by the shingles. The underlayment is
b not exposed.
Many people add all kinds of layers in their valleys that help them sleep at night but one at most is necessary, the rest are just added cost to the homeowner. Ice and water shield is not made for exposure. Fifty pound and hundred pound half and full roll roofing is made for exposure but
b I wouldn't put roll roofing on any roof, not even on a chicken coop. It has a five year warranty and thats exactly how long it lasts.
Get a Book on roofing. Home Depot has lots. Roofing is the easiest trade in construction and is also the one you better not screw up without insurance for your liability and your health...
Less is more, using one underlayment in the valley,
Jack : )
*Kim, Open valley, metal flashed and all mainly was and is used for shingles that require them. Wood shingles and slate aren't made three feet long out of flexible materials so as to even create a closed valley like we do with your typical fiberglass $7.99 per bundle semi-asphalt shingle of the post war era...The idea that metal valleys are self cleaning is possible with slate only, the roofing products hang up leaf debris too easily with their rough surface grab. I'm cleaning clients valleys every fall...And "Fire and ice" yak means "ice and water"...slang I suppose,Jack : )
*Scooter,I agree with about an eighth of your second post... I'll figure it to be regional in nature and possibly to do with different climates "snow" wise.Some differences...gutters are rare here and are trouble mostly. If needed, ground level guttering works with less hassles."Fire and ice" is called "ice and water" shield underlayment here, and is always to be covered over. We use it 36" wide at eaves or more, under all roofing on low sloped roofs, in valleys, around chimneys and especially under skylight flashing run up the boxed opening and wrapped around corners. Every skylight I've installed with it is leakproof so far, knock on wood! And I can tell you they leak like the dickens around here when it's left out.All in all I think I use less in the valleys than most, though I used to use more years ago, before Ice and Water shield came out.More posted below,Jack : )
*Just a point on open valley flashing.When called for copper is whats used around here and I still use the weather guard under it and up the sides. To keep those valleys clean taper those shinges
*Aluminum W valley at $1/foot with at least 14 possible colors vs. copper at $7/foot with 1 color available.Ashamed to say I have never had a customer willing to pay for the copper on a new roof.( many insist they want it till they find out what it costs)I agree that the Icegaurd under the W valley is a bit overkill but when you are shelling out $4000 and up for a roof whats another $55 for a roll of icegaurd.It's cheap insurance in the colder climates.Also the W valley is still code in some area's here. Good Luck,Stephen
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I'm about to have a new roof installed, and have been debating which valley type to go with. The valleys on my current roof failed due mostly to poor craftsmanship - they were completely cut away, exposing just one layer of roll-roofing material. I have decided to go with pre-formed metal valleys, but have a question about installation. Why are the shingles cut away, exposing a large portion of the metal. It seems like there would be greater protection from run-under and better looks if the shingles were laid right up against the center fold, hiding the sides of the valley. Any thoughts?