I recently posted about a bad roofing installation here http://forums.taunton.com/tp-breaktime/messages?msg=76921.1) Things are heating up (threats of liens, calling us deadbeats, etc.) and we’re just getting started. When we told the owner that we had an independent inspector come out and look at the upper roof, and he got hostile. The inspector was practically speachless. He said he’s seen jobs like this before…from a guy and two buddies getting up on the roof after beer & ribs on a Saturday afternoon. Super…. The owner is pressuring us to complete this transaction. We’ve already paid 1/3 of the amount owed. We would have settled this already if it was a proper job. We figure it will be harder to get the job done right or get a refund if the entire amount has been paid. Here’s additional pictures for your review. Any suggestions on how to proceed as this gets nastier? Are we obliged to let this company repair/redo the work they did wrong in the first place? 100_3305 – arrow is pointing to an unsealed razor slit the length of the shingle. 100_3310 – shingle over dormer not v cut to relieve stress…has already split. 100_3312 – big chunk out of shingle probably from someone walking on it when hot. Exposure measurement — way off. 100_3318- downslope by box vent. Shingle not properly secured, exposed nails. 100_3314 – uneven shingle rows, exposures off spec. Thanks.
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http://forums.taunton.com/tp-breaktime/messages/?msg=76921.1
There is an active link to your other thread for the uninitiated.
Still waiting here for your other photos to down load
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>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>Any suggestions on how to proceed as this gets nastier? Are we obliged to let this company repair/redo the work they did wrong in the first place?
Didn't you already give them that option before you had to call in someone to mediate this?
Call another roofer to fix it and deduct their price from what you owe.
They're hacks and don't have a legal leg to stand on IMHO.
Good luck.
What ever you do, don't flip the red switch on the dashboard, Gunner.
http://grantlogan.net/
"Call another roofer to fix it and deduct their price from what you owe."Fr5om arealistic, practical basis, you are right, I would not want the same men on the roof doing the work, but with a GC in-between, they should deal with him directly and have him get some real roofers this time.
Some states require the HO to allow a specified period of time in which to make corrections to satisfy.GC is likely to resist, I'm thinking, because the only way to fix this job is totally remove and re-roof, except the area done but the opne decent guy on the job
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It sounds like what you will be needing is more than advice from a bunch of us yahoos online.
You need the manufacturer rep, the inspector, and a lawyer in your corner. in many states, there is a legal need for you to provide theose who have failed you to make it right within a certain set time period. if you deny them the access to make it right, you could then jeopardize your rights to some degree.
The photo with the big chunk out of it is one the more alarming ones to my mind. It looks like 0 from other damage to the same - old wrinkles - like as though that one was shipping / storage damage - which would normally go in the trash bin as soon as it apearred. They chose to use it anyway.
Your inspectror could be rioght. They might have been high on something ingested and not just the elevation of your abode. not that uncommon with shingle layers.
It sounds like the installers are not exactly the same entity that you dealt with because you mention another builder/const comapny. You should onbly deal directly with that company. They can have another crew re-roof the bad part of this.
it appears like what happened is that they did not plan for the shingles to meet properly above the dormer, one of the first things learned when you start on a shingle crew. So they just stretched shingles as far as they could trying to get it to come together. Another possibility is that they were trying - for example - to roof a 25 sq roof with 24 sq of materials, but I don't think it looks like they were smart enough to think that far ahead.
Hard to imagine how that longitudinal cut came to be in the shingle with the arrow, but it sure should not be there.
It is a given that the shingles are not properly installed when the nail line and nails are exposed. The installation instructions on the wrapped dictate the required exposure. The company ( did you say GAF?) will certify that this is improper installation procedure needing replacement. Don't settle for anything less.
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These are Certainteed shingles. I've been in contact with them, but they seem reluctant to certify anything regarding installation. They will only say that the exposure must be 5 5/8" with 1/8" +/-.The construction company we dealt with is the one getting nasty with us now. The skinny is that they now only have one roofing crew (the guys that did ours) and, if so, they'd be the ones to repair.It isn't a shortage of shingles that led to the dormer or matching problems, we have left-over bundles in the garage. As far as the slit on the shingles, my guess is they used a razor knife or box cutter to take the wrapping off and went into the first shingle in the bundle.Thanks for your reply!
"They will only say that the exposure must be 5 5/8" with 1/8" +/-."There ya go! Just get it in writing - Most every manufacturer now has all their stuff online as PDFs. Visit Google and you can track that down.I was moderately speaking tongue in cheek about "a buch of yahoos"For instance, Grant ( see you ) is one of the premier roofing contractors in his state. His work is exquisite, especially in metal.
I was a specialty roofing contractor for a good twenty years before I moved on to remodeling. Twice in that time I did special field testing on new products for companies and wrote feedback reports. There are other professional roofer still in the trade daily here. As the original thread shows, there is unanimous agreement that the only yahoos involved are the ones roofing your house.I would not pay them a dime until they make this right, but since they resist that, CU has the right advice. I just think you should have a lawyer's advice first. He can lay out the guidlines for you. Alternatively, your state may have a website with a reseach function. good luck,
To put your mind at ease, I doubt there is anything so wrong there that it will leak within the next couple of years, tho it could be more likely to blow off in a major storm than a properly installed roof.i'm curious though, if they were this careless where it shows, what else might be sloppy. Did they use tarpaper or anything for underlayment before shintgling?
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Yes, tarpaper and ice guard were put down. Correctly? Who can say.
We are trying to remain calm and focused, but it's getting harder to do.
We purchased a 1918 home 3 years ago. Original woodwork and plaster in tact. We've done all the work ourselves (refinishing the hardwood floors, stripping old paint off the faux-tile plaster so the score lines are seen again, remove the 1950s kitchen and 1980s bath & restore to period-ish, so we're sick to think that a faulty roof might damage the home. Additionally, they also roofed our barn, which houses a lot of tools.
See our website at http://am4sq.com and our blog here http://am4sq.com/WordPress.
Thanks so much for your support and advice. It helps.
I take back what I said about it lasting a couple years before it starts leaking. After visiting your website and looking at a few of those pictures, I will say that it is leaking now except for the good weather. That is really bad with a double D.at the dormer base, if there is any flashing at all, it is left over from two roofs ago. Along the eaves, there should be NONE of that cupping. You will find your facia rotting out very soon from that kind of work.They did not even consider flashing at the chimney. Tried to get lucky witha bead of caulk. If I were the GC, this would be all fixed right before I paid the subs. Your GC wants to go down with the ship apparantly, since this crew will do nothing but continue to cause callbacks and warrantee claims. He is negligent.I stil think you need a lawyer's advice before doing anything. You are doing a good job of documentationThere are a couple things where you are just picky-picky. It is not paossible to run a perfectly straight ridge on the hip with architectural shingles. And an exposure that varies to the lessor - 5-3/8" is not bad when the manufacturer requires 5-5/8". It is when they stretched so many the other way and increased exposure that they created trouble.
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I just got done looking at the pictures on his blog and HOLY COW, thats some shiddy work!
You gotta wonder how many houses around that town are in the same shape, unsuspecting people paying good money thinking that they got a good roof on there house.
I knew a guy around my home town that did similar work, been doing it for 30 years, still hadnt gotten it right. We always said about him, all of his roofs are guarnteed to leak, even if they didnt before!
I doubt any warrenty from these guys would be of any good, not likely they'll be around to honor it.
Doug
Don't forget to add Taunton's Breatime to your list of "links we like"
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Piffin:
Thanks for the roofing lesson. We are learning the finer points, and it's helpful to know what is an issue and what's not.
We both grew up in one story ranches, no dormers, no hips, no 'fancy' stuff. Dennis is knowledgeable about many things, but this is out of our area.
Added Breaktime to an new category "Sites we can't live without".
Thanks!
Karen
>>>>>>>>>>>>>They will only say that the exposure must be 5 5/8" with 1/8" +/-.That's definately not the case if the white line is showing. >>>>>>>>>>>>>The construction company we dealt with is the one getting nasty with us now.Get nastier. Don't pay them or let the guys that made this mess on your property. Let them sue you if they have the balls and have the court decide the action.
What ever you do, don't flip the red switch on the dashboard, Gunner.
http://grantlogan.net/
Yeah, what you said. (Im a slow typist)
I agree with Piffin about a lawyer.Many will charge $50-200. Some for free for the initial interview where they can look at your contract and tell you what your options are under the state law about what kind of notices that you have to give them. What happens if they try a lien, etc.All of those vary from state to state.
I just got in on this thread today but I read some of your other thread also.
You stated on post 76921.10 that the owner said "they were installed per manf. specs".
I dont roof anymore but if I am not mistaken With Tamko and Owens Corning you must have a 5 3/8" exposure or less on their arch. shingles. Even less if the pitch is less than a 4/12.
If the nail line is showing, you have more than 5 3/8". Therefore they may not be covered.
Check one of the bundles to see what the required exposure is. If that doesnt work then call the manf. like piffin said.
Just an observation. If the shingles are exposed to the nailing line. How far up the shingle are the nails?
Looks like the are over exposed and improperly nailed.
I would like to see some of their handy work around a chimney or skylight.
Could be scary!
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Just look at their website
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I wouldn't pay them another penny. First talk to a lawyer and find out if there is any type of RTR law in your state (right to repair... you may have to offer it to them). If not, have another roofer TEAR OFF the entire job as though it were 30 years old, and replace it correctly. It will probably come out of your pocket unless you're willing to have the lawyer sue them for damages, which will be more trouble than it's worth.
You probably don't have to worry about them filing a lien--a lien by itself does nothing to you unless you are trying to sell of refi the house right now. They have to file suit against you to 'perfect' the lien and win a judgement (which they will not be able to do given your evidence of poor workmanship). Might be worth having the lawyer write them a letter, maybe they'll piss off.
If they have only paid 1/3 then the amount is small enough that they can probably go to small claim court to "try" and get it back.
They can try all they want. All this should get out of the judge is a laugh before he runs them out.Remember judges need roofs too.
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I ment for kwill to try and get back the 1/3 down that he paid the roofer.I used the word TRY as a roofer like this is having somekind of problems and most problems end up being money problems in the end.But typically only cost $50-100 to go to small claims court.BTW, my sister ended up with a job like that and the roofer ended up in jail.Never got the full story. But the roofer drove so many nails that the sheathing needed to be replaced.I think that the jail was because he avoided court orders to make good.
Should have put him in a jail without a roof!
My late wife was a lawyer. I strongly agree with others who suggest you need one, ASAP!
Like it or not, you are in the middle of a mess with people who are now calling you names in response to your sincere identification of genuine defects. With this attitude, you will never get proper satisfaction.
As others have said, there are roofers who give substance abusers a bad name. I have been told that it is part of the trade. I mentioned to a GC that a guy looked rather burned out. His reply was, "of course he is an alchoholic, he's a roofer". (Pleze no flames from the good roofers, this is a GC's words, not mine.)
Get a lawyer used to dealing with this type of scrap. Don't take a knife to a gun fight.
Do not use another roofer to complete the job until you have control of the current roofer. You don't wanna fight a building lien. Make the current roofer understand that the longer this goes on, the harder it will be for him. Your roofer knows he forked up, again. He has done it b4 and will do it again. Make him want to go away cuz all he will get from you is trouble.
Good luck.
Very good suggestion to make the roofer want to walk away. Too many stories here about disgruntled contractors exacting revenge.
"When asked if you can do something, tell'em "Why certainly I can", then get busy and find a way to do it." T. Roosevelt