I just had my roof replaced and I have a few questions about the techniques I saw being used. Because of a poor original job and some leaks, I had the old shingles striped to the bare decking. 1 – Instead of roof jacks, the roofers nailed 2x4s to the roof over the installed shingles and then just pulled up the 2x4s when they moved up. I assume the shingles will not leak but this seems poor technique. 2 – There are places where the underlayment did not quite cover or where trimming left gaps. In one place an area about the size of a hand was left uncovered and coming down one ridge line, there were gaps about 2-3 inches wide and 1-2 feet left in a couple of places, 3 – As the roofer was going up a ridge, he put two nails on each side for about 10 courses and then only one on each side until about 6-8 from then top then started using two again. I am especially concerned about the 2nd point since it seems most glaring. Am I being too concerned about this points? Thanks.
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Let a 4-roof DIYer be the first to answer, Jimbo.
I wouldn't worry too much about the sloppy underlayment installation. I just stripped shingles off part of a 20 year old roof (mine). No underlayment was used (hippie brothers-in-law convinced me not to). The PW looks good as new. The 2X4 trick doesn't sound good, however. As you probably know, the nail heads left behind when roofing jacks are removed are covered by shingles. I don't see how this could be done with 2X4 cleats. What does the roofer say about this?
About twenty years ago I started leaving the felt off on my own roofs. We just added on to a shop building and the OSB that was under the shingles for the last twenty years looked as good as the day we put it on. I have a book somewhere that said felt is no longer necessary. I believe you void the shingle warranty if you don't use it however.
I sure as heck don't know what you're asking,
1. i have holes in my roof from toeboards ???
2. I have 2 to 3 inch holes and 1 to 2 foot holes????
3. 2 nails in going up a ridge???
They left holes in the shingles from the toe-boards and gaps in the underlayment tarpaper. I'm less sure on the last, sounds like 2 nails on some ridge pieces and four on other ones.
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Greetings and Welcome to BT!
There are several long-time professional roofers on this board who can give you the best answers and advice.
In order to help us all to understand the situation a bit better you can tell us what area of the country you live in...nearest city...and what the pitch of your roof is. If you have any photos of the roof and/or the job, you can post them.
>>>>>>>Instead of roof jacks, the roofers nailed 2x4s to the roof over the installed shingles and then just pulled up the 2x4s when they moved up.
That's a poor, but frequently used practice. I won't allow it. A hole in the roof will leak. It doesn't always cause a problem, but sometimes does.
>>>>>There are places where the underlayment did not quite cover
I'd be less concerned about this. If the shingles and flashings are installed properly, the only thing the underlayment is doing is keeping the shingles from sticking to the sheathing.
>>>>>As the roofer was going up a ridge, he put two nails on each side for about 10 courses and then only one on each side until about 6-8 from then top then started using two again.
I'm confused. I guess maybe you're talking about the hip caps. One nail on each side of the hip is the accepted method. He might have had to use two nails on each side to make the cap lay right in certain areas.
View Image
Thanks to all who replied. This reply answered my questions. The use of 2x4s nailed on top of installed shingles instead of using roof jacks seems to be the only real issue. I will ask the roofer about this practice, though it was mentioned that it is common.
Not where I live. I would fire a roofer who tried that on my house!
#1 - will leak unless they put in slips under the holes or caulked them. Just last week I repaired one with holes like that on a modular home where they had used a nailed down strapping to hold the shipping tarp, then left the 20-30 holes from nails or screws.
#2 - depends a lot how steep the roof is and how well the single layer was done. Especially bad practice where you get snow or on lower slope roofs.
#3 - I've never used but two nails fora ridge piece. Maybe I misunderstand your description, maybe he was using extra nails totighten things. Did you mean hips - as he went up the hip of the roof?
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What are these "slips" you refer to? A couple of my old shingles tore as I was trying to extricate nails so I could install new shingles under them and I repaired the wound by sliding a tar-covered piece of flashing under the torn shingle, carefully nailing down the edges and then splathering tar over everything. By "tar" I mean roofing cement.(I have been replacing eaves trim, and a trim job evolved into a roofing job: ice and water shield, new drip, new shingles in area, new gutter. One thing leads to another. Put up scaffolfding, anbd that was a very good idea.)
scrap of metal 2-3 inches wide and 6-8" long. Slip it up under the shingle tab where the hole is and let the flap down. I use a dab of caulk at the spot where the hole is and push down. The caulk oozes up through the hole and glues the slip in place. but 9/10 times just the tab holds the slip in place.The idea is similar to using slips of 30# tarpaper behind joints in siding
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I think I've mentioned this before, but to patch a nail hole in an asphalt shingle, I cut a sliver of shingle and pound it into the hole with my hammer.View Image
I remember you posting an alternate solution, but couldn't remember what it was.this whole thing is a pet peeve of mine. when I was a roofing sub, so often I would see builders l;et painters or siding carps nail on toe-boards, then I'd have to ask them, "You paid me good money for a good roof, why do you let these guys destroy it by poking dozens of holes in it?"It even became a test. The good builders would say "Fix it and bill me" The ones that had other problems would say, "So what"In some respects, this is based on the assumption that when a roof is steep enough that it needs toe-boards, the rain will run off faster than it can leak in the hole that is left, you we all know where you can stick an umption - on the backside of the a s sI think the thread where you mentioned this was where a guy had photos of all the rotted she3athing from inside. Never had a leak stained a ceiling, but he had all that black stain and m,old in several spots on the inside of the roof sheathing and wondered what it was. He found a local who diagnosed it for him, based on knowing how common this practice was in that locality. edit - I suspect that filling the hole works for you , but I mistrust it because I have so much history in snow areas where ice would dislodge something like that.
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Edited 10/13/2008 6:22 pm ET by Piffin
4 nails per cap and 6 per shingle is Florida code.
So maybe this job is in FL and the roofer cheated by a few nails then.Is it codes in FL to leave a roof peckered full of toeboard holes?
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Evidently it is, since I see it all the time on steep roofs. Must be a national thing. I don't like it either but see it all the time.
lift the tab and plastic cement under it, that is the fix. still looks like do-do tho
"lift the tab and plastic cement under it, that is the fix. "That's fine too. It is all the hacks that don't bother with that that bothers me.
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Do you get a nailing diagram with that code ?
Could you post it ?
Standard three tap shingle instructions show the proper nailing schedule for most conventional roofing configurations. Are shingles shipped to FL packaged with the standard instruction or do they get FL code instructions printed on them ?
Not doubting you word, but this is the second post where you have pointed out Florida roofing code, and it has made me curious. We had a recent storm with 70 to 80 mph winds, and I am wondering if the Florida nailing schedule would have helped a lot of roofs survive better than they did.
There's no way 6 nails per shingle would reduce the amount of tabs blown off of 3 tab roofs. But it might save the top part of the shingle. The 6 nail/shingle instructions are on the wrappers as an alternative for high wind/steep slope applications. We seldom do 3 tabs, but we 6 nail dimensionals as SOPView Image
Guess I need need to read more of the package, don't I ?
I had my first experience with 3-d shingles last week. I replaced about 8 damaged shingles on neighbors roof. After reading the 6 nail instructions on the package, I was suprized to see that the ones I replaced only had 4 nails, like a typical three tab, and the nails where only 7/8 or 1". When they lifted in that high wind some of them just broke off and a few just peeled all the way off,down to the felt paper.
Makes me wonder how many roofers know there is a difference in the two .
4 nails is standard application. 6 for high wind or steep slope. The reason we use 6 nails is that the gun nails we get are not as good as they used to be. The heads come off easier.View Image
All the wrappers I have seen show the six nail pattern for high wind areas.It was the extra in hips that I'd not heard of - and that actually bothers me as un-necessary. When tearing off, the hips are always atrociously hard anyhow with two nails. I'm thinking that four would make the material nail-poor and more likely to leak.
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That is standard for high wind areas and mansard roofs. as cu says, the instructions are on all shingle wrappers. There is a map also showing where these areas are, altho it may not be on shingle wrappers.
The placement of the nails is paramount. If they are not below the sealant strip on 3-tab or in the doubled area on 3-d shingles they don't do much good.
also plastic cement under the starter glueing it to the eave metal, and the starter strip must have either tabs cut off, or use regular starter shingles.
BTW, I don't 4-nail the caps because I don't see it doing any good, and its rarely checked.
catfish
The placement of the nails is paramount. If they are not below the sealant strip on 3-tab or in the doubled area on 3-d shingles they don't do much good.
I am sure that the machine gun nailers get real good nail placement. On some laminated shingles the doubled area is only 5/8" wide. How can you possibly hit that when you are speed nailing.
You have to train your guys to slow down and place nails carefully.
Rich
there is a place near me where I have been able to make a couple hundred bucks on service calls to replace shingles every year. The owners are thinking - hey it is only 8YO so I don't want to do another whole roof yet!But the original roofer nailed high and had the gun set with too much depth of drive, so all the nails are too high and a third of them driven thru the shingle. Every big wind from a certain direction over there is time to go check out the roof again. Last time, I got all the way to the top and found that they had even left out a few shingles about a foot wide right next to the chimney at the ridge. the 30# underlayment was worn right out there from long exposure.
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Yeah - I've got a couple of those. One of them has had almost the whole roof replaced/re-nailed $200/$300 at a time.View Image
Piffin
Good to have others provide job insurance for you.
Rich