Anyone have experience with this kind of floor system, comparison cost data to other standard floor systems?
Hidden costs, suprises, experiences, what to look out for.
Thanks.
Anyone have experience with this kind of floor system, comparison cost data to other standard floor systems?
Hidden costs, suprises, experiences, what to look out for.
Thanks.
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Replies
I've done a few that way...used my mill for the sawing, put the joists in roughsawn, had the decking planed and T and G'd.
Couple things to keep in mind:
Rough sawn lumber may not be consistently true to dimension (depends on the wood, the type of saw and it's alignment, and the skill of the sawyer). So when using it as framing lumber, like joists, after they're put in, they may have to be dressed up here and there. An electric hand plane makes short work of it. (Throw out, or use elsewhere, any boards that are seriously undersized).
The other main issue is that rough sawn is usually not end-trimmed, so it takes a little more time to get each piece trimmed to size.
Smaller issues are things like the absence of an eased edge, the material may be 'mill-run' and not graded and 'pond-dry' (green with a high moisture content).
I've had good luck with it, but I'm finicky about keeping the mill aligned, cutting for grade, sawing stress out of the log when I can, and cutting to allow for shrinkage (which takes practice and a knowledge of the wood being used).
Excellent, thanks for the advice.
Any idea on cost comparisons to standard floor systems?
The cost issues are more difficult to answer without more info from you.
So I'll make some assumptions that will hopefully answer your question.
My custom sawing has been with a Woodmizer bandmill, a very capable machine, but like any machine, has it's assets and limitations. When sawing for a customer, I always charged an hourly rate rather than by the board foot because there were so many variables involved (log size, quality and length of the logs, was there help available or would I be working alone, were the logs dry or green, species of wood-some cuts easier and faster while some dulls blades quicker, sizes and lengths of desired lumber or beams, cleanliness of the logs, were the logs easily accessable for the mill, etc.).
Were the customers logs off his own property and didn't represent actual cash outlay to own them, or did he have to purchase the logs at market prices?
I tried to keep my sawing costs to the customer low enough that his total cash outlay for the finished product was below what the same wood would cost him retail. If he was buying his logs, this wasn't always very practical if the lumber market prices were relatively low (for framing lumber). (Commercial sawmill operations have an advantage with economy of scale).However, I was almost always very competitive with larger sticks like posts and beams, or special order cuts, like odd-size beams, gunstock blanks, etc.
One upside was that I could pretty much eliminate defects like wane, or saw around defects pre-existing in the logs, and make quality lumber out of "marginal" logs that loggers would often leave in the woods as 'not worth the bother.' (A rough, knotty log from a tree top may look bad on the surface, but those knots get smaller as you cut deeper into the log). All in all, with custom sawing, one CAN get a better product)
To be a little more specific, I could usually turn out good 2 X framing material for about $125 to $180 per MBF (thousand board feet) or 1 X siding for $160 to $220 per MBF. (It takes just as long to cut a 1" board as it does a 2" board). Now this was based on my charging $40 to $45 per hour. Some people charge more, some less. That rate, for me, was consistent for my area for a quality job.
And other factors enter the equation, especially if you're purchasing the logs. Unless the logs have a lot of defect, You'll almost ALWAYS get more board footage out of a log than the actual bd. ft. scale of the log. It's called 'overun' and is one of the things most commercial sawmills are dependent on if they're to make a profit. My over-run varied from 120% to over 500% although 140-150% was typical.
If custom planing is to be done, you have to factor in transportation, set up costs for the planing mill and then, usually a board foot or lineal foot charge for the planing (commercial planers have a counter that tallies throughput).
If you want the stuff kiln dried, small quantities can be a little expensive, so I usually showed customers how to sticker and air dry properly. And I'd usually cut stickers out of some of the edgings (drying stickers should be faily thick, like 1" or so so there's good air flow. The 1/4" lath sold in the lumber yards really isn't appropriate for effective air drying).
And there other types of small mills out there....but the objective of any of them should be to cut accurate, quality lumber at a reasonable price and maximize the material in the raw material.
I have a neighbor who is an arborist who collects logs from his tree surgery jobs. When he has enough he will spend a day or two cutting rough lumber. His prices for the sawing are similar to yours.
There are two disadvantages to using his wood. First is that the dimensions are not always as uniform as plain kiln-dried lumber. If the beams have to be uniform in thickness or width, this can be a problem. If the floor joists are exposed it is very simple to make the bearing ends uniform and leave the rest as is. This is just the way that we use log framing. The second problem is that much of his wood is not a good species for structural lumber. He has mostly white pine and miscellaneous hardwoods. We use his wood when we can and it is excellent in the proper place.
Grading is a problem -- unless you a certified grader your lumber is not code compliant.
Dimensional issues should not matter. You can have the lumber planed on one edge to the same width. A little fixture to use with a router will finish the bottom edge at bearing points.
Rough lumber will cost more than finished lumber because it is a speciality item.
I'm certified to grade (or was...I let the certificate lapse), but certified graders can be hired in any area that has production sawmills to stamp the lumber. Certified graders will sometimes work for a 6-pack or sometimes work for a fee....depends on the individual. Most Bldg. inspectors don't scrutinize gradestamps and probably wouldn't understand most of the coding on one if they did.
When I was commenting about prices for rough lumber to the original poster I was assuming he was having it cut on site.
I've been around solid wood products all my life and I've never seen rough lumber cost more than planed. Planing is one of the final steps in a manufacturing process that adds value (and cost) to the product. Perhaps if one is taking planed lumber and making it rough, or giving it a hand-hewn texture or something, there would, of course be an additional charge. And planed and trimmed lumber can be less labor intensive to use, for reasons I mentioned in my original post.
When I know the lumber I am cutting is going to be planed, I usually oversize it about a 1/4" because the planer will be removing wood from 4 sides and usually the bottom knives and the guidebar side knives are set for about 1/8" depth.
For framing lumber, I usually cut Doug fir because it's common here. Other softwoods, such as several pine species, Western Hemlock, Grand fir, etc.,can be use for framing and are actually superior species for pressure treating, but given the availability of DF, which is, in general, a better material, it is the wood of choice for framing (in the Pac. NW). Hardwoods can be pretty squirrely when cut to the dimensions of framing lumber.
I'm always amazed at the amount of expertise and insight availible here, this is a great example. I am a city based builder in Ontario whom will be building a cottage for a client, I am acting as the designer as well as builder and we were playing with the idea of an exposed rustic cieling/ floor sytem. Having no expersience with installing rough cut lumber I appreciate all your insight.
I have found that i can get rough cut for about 75% of that of dimensional. Even kiln dried for a minimal charge.
Any suggestions for the decking, I am thinking, 2x6 T&G on 48 o.c., is there anything else I should be looking at?
Thanks again.
> I'm certified to grade (or was...I let the certificate lapse),
How did you learn to grade, and how do you get certified? Is it expensive?
Thanks --
-- J.S.
When I worked in the Sawmill industry, while I was a Maintenance and engineering manager and not directly involved with production, I got interested in grading and one of the head graders took me under his wing. I studied the grading manuals and attended some of the classes held at the plant and eventually took the test (which is an actual hands-on grading exercise and a written test). It didn't cost me anything at the time.
When I bought my own little portable mill, I maintained certs for construction grade lumber and kept stamps for 2 & Btr through Structural Select which served my purposes. I can't say I was technically legal at all times, because the cost of a stamp authorization for an individual or a commercial sawmill is about 3 grand a year....I just slid along under the umbrella of my old employer and now the Co. mill no longer exists so the code #'s on my stamps are actually obsolete. (Probably more accurate than when I said 'lapsed').
They (the graders) also participated in some regional lumber grading contests which tested the depth of knowledge and accuracy of individual graders. There are some specialty items, particularly in the Old Growth Doug Fir specs, that require higher certifications, especially with wood that has safety implications such as scaffold plank stock, ladder stock, tank stock, crossarm stock, etc.
Some mills contract their grading out to a 'union' of graders that are certified by the lumber grading associations, of which there are several, covering hardwoods, softwoods (Doug Fir is a grading specialty) plywood, etc., and, in addition, have grading rules for different species that are region specific. (In the PNW. for example, we have grade rules for Western Red Cedar, Port Orford Cedar, Alaskan yellow cedar and Red Alder, but I've never seen the rules for Southern longleaf yellow pine)
I've been away from the industry for nearly 14 years now so some of the info I'm giving you may not be current....however, you've inspired me to dig out my old grading book and maybe search for some current info with some local lumber graders. If I learn anything that more currently answers your question, I'll pass it along.
Thanks for the info. At $3k/year, this is strictly a thing for people who want to do it as a full time job. What got me interested is that there are no grade stamps on the lumber in my house, it's too old for that. I know that a lot of it has to do with the number, size and location of knots, and the direction of grain. One of the 2x10 joists in my house is 17 ft long, and has no knots at all. But in the garage I have a failed 2x6 rafter that had a knot about 5" in diameter. Come to think of it, I was picking thru 2x4's at HD once, and found one that had a knot so big it broke in half when I picked it up. That one was stamped "STD & BTR".
-- J.S.
-- J.S.