How do you like these? If you don’t, be specific about what is wrong.
Gene Davis, Davis Housewrights, Inc., Lake Placid, NY
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Gene, the cuts look excellent.
I make a similar cut for most upper flights, but I make one modification to accomodate a hanger. I don't like to rely on toe nails, nor such a small bearing surface (you have only 3/4" bearing.
The criticism I have is that both stringers are susceptable to splitting. I've circled the possible failure points.
I would advise you to hang the lower set with full bearing on a piece of 3/4" plywood. It's not perfect, but it has stood the test of time.
Snipping the upper stringer and installing a hanger will eliminate the potential splitting.
Excellent job other wise.
For speed, I would put the deck plywood on before I put the upper stringers. I would also eliminate at least one stringer. The strength can be created with the risers if you think you need more beef. I don't put much faith in stringers because generally, after cutting them out, you're left with a 2x4 or 2x6, which isn't really that strong anyways. A good solid 7" (if you are truly anal, you could use 2- 2x8's for each riser) riser solidly supported on both ends will do more for strength than extra stringers.
blue
Not my job, Blue. The pic is from the job across the street from mine.
My thoughts were: a.) neat cuts on the carriages, but did you sight across? At least one of those looks like it is from a totally different staircase. I wouldn't want to finish those stairs. b.) overkill on the landing framing, which looks like 2x12s, c.) why not deck the landings first before seating the carriages? Why make it hard on yourself? d.) sawn lumber sucks for use as stair carriages, e.) landing underframing looks a little wimpy, f.) shoot me if I ever get that anal about my nailing patterns! g.) you can have your cocktail party on that staircase, with those little toenails as hangers, but don't invite me an my friends! We're all going to a deck party in Chicago's Wrigleyville.
I framed both landing platforms of the stairs from main to upper this afternoon, before a huge electrical storm blew us out and off the job. Tomorrow I'll cut and install the carriages, and I'll take a few pics.Gene Davis, Davis Housewrights, Inc., Lake Placid, NY
Here are my pics, taken yesterday after getting over 1-inch of rain during a 2 pm deluge.
I like for my landing platform "bearing rims," those in a winder that carriages either spring from or are hung to, to be doubled, and for one or both the members to sit on wall jacks somehow. You can see that in one of the pics.
I also like to use hangers for joists, rather than just relying on face nails or toenails.
Our job isn't as clean as the one being done across the road, but we don't have a cleanup helper like they do. Maybe we'll make him an offer he can't refuse, and he can clean and haul for us!Gene Davis, Davis Housewrights, Inc., Lake Placid, NY
That set in your orignal post suxx.
Looks like 2x12 landing joists... over kill.... nailed to a ledger that's just nailed to studs. So you can drop a Buick on it and it won't break.... just shoot to the cellar instead. Who gets to notch the plywood around the stringers? Little skimpy on the bearing surface too, don't you think?
Your set looks much better. Only thing I'd do differently occurs where the top of your string attaches to the landing. I like to make a kerf 7 3/4" down from the tread on the back of the stringer. Then I slip a 2X8 hanger into the notch to attach it to the landing or header.
I like to see the landing supported as yours is. I hate seeing landings just nailed to the two surrounding walls with a little double 2x4 post toe-nailed to the hanging corner. I like to see the framing run right into the surround walls and be posted down to the bottom plate. It's just good practice.
Also didn't notice where your stairs terminate at the floor. I like to make a cut-out in the stringers so that they fit over a 2x4 cleat nailed to the deck. Front of the riser flush to the front of the cleat. Maybe you did that though.
Seems like you're having a lot of fun doing the framing on this house, huh? It's contagious, isn't it?
Ima Wannabe:
Generally when you extend down a plywood nailer for nailing on your stringers, you cleat on a 2x4 ( plenty nails) across bottom, and have cut-outs on stringers, so they rest on cleat. Gives more shear strength, and thats how Daddy taught me , and how I've also seen it in construction reference books.
Roger
My detail comes from Rob Thallon's Graphic Guide to Frame Construction, originally published in 1991 by the Taunton Press. It hasn't failed me yet.
I am attaching an exerpt from the book, showing the detail as I build it.
Gene Davis, Davis Housewrights, Inc., Lake Placid, NY
Gene,We don't cut stairs for houses around here but when I cut them for decks I do this.Joe Carola
I like that detail an awful lot for decks. Thanks... I'll be using that one.
Consider that detail stolen <wink>
The awful thing is that beauty is mysterious as well as terrible. God and the devil are fighting there, and the battlefield is the heart of man.- Fyodor Dostoyevski
The cuts look nice except that the bottom of the stringer should be cut so that the line of the bottom continues up to the bottom of the landing. This configuration make a nice clean cut that wraps the landing and provides nailing for drywall underneath. As is, there is not much purchase on the top of the stringer. It looks weak. Follow me? Also the mid stringers should be hung on a hanger. Pressure blocking is OK for drop ceilings but for stairs it is not strong enough. It looks like the carpenter has just temporarily hung the stringers for now because of the toenails. To do a test fit I offen use toenails to have a look. Chances are he will install hangers and pressure blocks by the next time you check it out. On the west coast the new standard is stringers made of LSL or LVLs. Dimension lumber for stringers (Horses, carraiges), is anachronistic. I would say that the stair framer has a lot to learn. He is an amatuer. The strongest connection is when the first tread is integrated with the landing. To do that you have to frame the landing one tread width narrower and sheet the landing after the horses are hung.
I like to use TrusJoist LSL stair stringer material. It's cheaper than LVL and light years better than dimensional lumber. We rarely run skirting, so I nail a 1x4 to the side of the stringers so 1/2" drywall can slide down next to the stringer and not be cut.
All connections should be glued, including every piece of the platform. I usually use 2x10 because we have scrap from the roof. I NEVER use hangers for the platforms. Its a potential squeak and it is not needed. With glue, face nailing and toenailing, hangers aren't needed. BUT don't nail in such a way that nails shine or split the material or are too close together. The platform in my house (which I framed) is 5 1/2 years old and has never squeaked.
If the stairway is between two walls, then I use Simpson SDS screws to attach the stringers to the walls at the sides. I don't pressure block or hanger any of the stringers. With the stringers screwed and glued to the studs on the sides of the stairwell, and 1x8 risers glued and nailed (with Sheather plus ringshank nails), the center stringer isn't going anywhere. 1" OSB bull nose treads glued and nailed all the way up.
I've never had a set of stairs squeak and we haven't had a set of stairs squeak as far as this company is concerned but one time and that idiot isn't working here anymore.
If for some reason, I have to use hardware, I make sure I put glue in it. If it is a hanger, then I put glue on all surfaces of the hanger, all connections.
I wanted to use the TrusJoist stair stringers, but not one of all the four lumberyards I have here can get it, because no one in this region asks for it, so the wholesalers don't have it.
I would like to use Simpson SDS screws, but guess what? All of my suppliers say the same thing. I have to buy 1000 of any size.
We put a dab of PL 400 subfloor adhesive in the seat of all joist hangers.Gene Davis, Davis Housewrights, Inc., Lake Placid, NY
Gene, who trims out your stairs? Do you (or your crew) end up doing the finish work? When nailing or screwing the treads, how well do the fasteners grab in the lvls, or lsls? I definitely appreciate what you are saying about dimensional lumber being difficult to work with. I want to try engineered lumber for stringers, just haven't had the opportunity yet. Your work looks great, by the way.
Dustin Thompson
We'll be finishing these stairs ourselves, with 5/4 red birch treads and 4/4 brown maple risers. Fastening will be with coarsethread screws in c'bored holes, plugged and sanded. The insurance is all the PL400 polyurethane subfloor adhesive we'll be using.Gene Davis, Davis Housewrights, Inc., Lake Placid, NY
I NEVER use hangers for the platforms.
Around here, you'd NEVER get a green tag.
blue
I don't know what a green tag is.
I've talked to the inspectors about this issue and they agree.
Your not implying I'm a hack are you? :-) If so, I'm glad to to be part of your club hahahahahah
:-)
Around here,too.
Anything 2ft. or longer and any lumber larger than 2x6 will be in a hanger or have a Teco on it.BTW, nice steps Gene.
It's been a few years since I've cut any....mostly factory builts here.
Tim a green tag is the inspector's okay.
Here in MI, all joist must have solid bearing or hangers. I hate hangers so I tend to put most members on some sort of solid bearing. Face nailing or toe nailing won't pass muster.
blue
I know everyone will read this so I address it to ALL. (except Blue and Tim, but they can read it too.)
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It seems to me that the sides of the stringer board are parallel and any offset lines in-between would be parallel to the sides so adding a line to the center of the stringer would be unnecessary. Also it seems that if you figured the over length of the stair and divide it by the number of steps you would have the hypotenuse of each step. You find the number of steps by dividing the total rise by the desired number of treads and subtracting one riser. The riser would be the equivalent of the HAP of a rafter, would it not, so you could calculate its overall length like a rafter. If the stair has no forgiveness in where the first step is placed then I do an overall length calc as explained above. If it is not that critical I slap on the nuts and whip it out. A sharp pencil/awl and a sharp corner Framing Square are very helpful to whipping it out with a better margin of fast accuracy though. High quality sharp cornered framing squares are hard to come by though.<!---->
Also, It seems that using a 2/10 cut with the outer corner missing (as shown in the posted details by Ima) instead of using a 2/12 is “jumping over a dollar to pick up a dime”. <!---->
I don’t get it.<!---->
Mr Jap, since I've tried just about everything at least once, here's my opinion.
Normally, our stringers are attached to a sidewall, or resting on a bearing wall underneath, so a 2x10 is still adequate. Nipping the tips might make it stronger, but it doesn't need any more strength. If it needs strength, then a 2x12 will be used.
Installing the risers with the tip nipped is a PITA. I'm not fond of having to use a straight edge to guage the height of the risers. I just want to glue and nail them as fast as possible.
The intermediate stringer in most units is put there to carry the drywall underneath. It isn't needed for structural strength on most stairs because the span of the riser and tread is strong enough. The exception would be wide stairs, but these are rare on houses 4000 sf and less. Thus, 2x10s are normally strong enough.
I've built stairs the same way for 30 years and I have never had a complaint or service call. We have had homeowners buy in our sub and state that one reason that they did was because our basement stairs were superior to the competition's main level stairs. We did nothing fancy on those stairs, just normal craftsmanship: decent cuts, glue and nails/staples.
blue
Blue,
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I have no doubt about your Framing abilities. Really. (And most of the rest of the online crew too) Framing is not a difficult trade as the pay scale apparently proves. But mastering good money at it takes time to learn how to do. However, I don’t think that unnecessarily complicating any task is going to make it a better job.
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Here in S. TX I have never seen less than a 2/12 for stair stringers. Maybe we do it different here. Typically we place a 2/4 against the wall flush with the stringer’s bottom to bring it out 1-1/2” so the ½” sheetrock and the ¾” side kick-trim board slide in behind the stringer and do not have to be cut around the steps. Is this different from the stair you build? Since I use a 2/12 tread I usually order enough of the stringer length boards (2/12 #2 YP) to cut both the stringers and the treads. This allows me to select the best boards for stringers and cut the knotty crap into treads. And I don’t have to order expensive #1 select pine for stringers.
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I am reserved about using rim joist or micro lam boards for stringers because I have not seen it done for one, and two, that stuff splits easily with nails between the plies. Hard YP 2/12s also split so I don’t nail the treads to the stringers close to the tips. I just glue them there. I install the plywood kick first (staple) and the 2/12 tread second (glue/nail).
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I too have been framing stairs for over 30 years without one callback. The biggest set I framed was a four-story winder in an Italian styled house, (Looked like a scaled down version of Independence Hall. Like on the backside of a C note. Of Course, the owner was a Banker.), with a “widows watch” at the top. Every riser was perfectly equal. The treads got about ½” shorter at the third floor. It was on the plan that way and because they were behind a 3rd floor door it was not noticeable. The widows watch room at the top had a 2” thick glass floor looking down the Stair shaft with a large Iron chandelier hanging from it. Crazy and cool! The first flight was 5 or 6 feet wide and grew narrower as it ascended. Oak treads too. That stairway was the centerpiece of that house.
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Maybe one of these days I’ll get back up to my High School stomping grounds and look you up Blue. I lived in Mt Clemens four for years. CVHS ’71 =)
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>> Since I use a 2/12 tread I usually order enough of the stringer length boards (2/12 #2 YP) to cut both the stringers and the treads. <<
So, are those 2x12 treads temps or perm? If there is to be covering over them - what would it typically be? BTW - we use 2x10s for stringers. Matt
Matt,
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Typically the stairs are carpeted. My typical stair run is 10” (+ or -) so using a 2/12 tread gives approximately a 1-1/4” nose, Carpet goes on very nice. It is the standard here too. Quick and easy, makes sense too.
Just as an FYI, we typically use 5/4 x 12 nosed SYP for carpeted stair treads. The actual thickness is 1".
Matt
And "we" are where? For "real" treads I do the same.
Mr Jap, I was hanging around East Detroit High School in 71. I was supposed to be in school, but I wasn't that interested.
I hold my stringer out from the walls only 3/4". The drywall slips into that space. We don't use a trim board. The carpet goes directly to the drywall for a nice clean look. Thats how I prefer it.
I'm not opposed to 2x12's but I still find it to be overkill. Occasionally, on semi production homes, you might even find yourself extremely tight on headroom because of the extra two inch depth of the stringers.
We use 1x8 pine #2 or better risers. The treads are #1 SYP and come out ripped to 10 1/4". The stringers are usually #2 or better Doug fir.
It works fine.
blue
We do like blue,
3/4" off wall.Usually 2x12 w/2x12 treads.
Blue,<!----><!---->
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East Detroit was reaching out pretty close to us back then. It has probably swallowed up MC by now and I wouldn’t even recognize it anymore. That place was a real riot in ’67.<!---->
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10-1/4” treads? What about the nose? Or what's a typical run? I just bid a job detailing an 11" run and 12 -1/4" treads w/ 1/8 kick, and citing a IBC ADA requirement. News to me! I thought it was a 1" mistake. Anybody know?<!---->
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East Detroit changed it's name to "Eastpointe". They're trying to fool the people into thinking they are upscale.
They're not.
We use a fairly standard 9' run around here. I know alot of you in here might think that is too small, but personally, I prefer it. My place up north has the 10'' run and my place here has the 9'' run. I like the 9'' run better.
blue
I suppose that MC is North Eastpointe. I don’t really miss it.
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I’ve cut runs at 9” also. I believe that is the shortest run we are allowed to use. I rip the treads down to leave no more than a 1-1/4” nose. 9” run/ 8” rise is the steepest we are allowed. That’s universal isn’t it?
In MA, anything spanning less than 48" doesn't need a hanger, so I skip them on landings too. Less squeaks is what I'm hoping for.
In the spirit of this thread...
I haven't had the opportunity to use engineered stringers yet, but it's not for a lack of trying. I mention it to every builder I work for and they seem to just shrug it off. I guess they've never spent the time laying out and cutting a stringer, being careful not to over cut, finishing your cuts with a jigsaw or handsaw.... only to have half the triangles fall off the first time you bump it.
Anyway... I forget who the engineered lumber manufactuer was at JLC this year. I don't think it was Boise Cascade, maybe it was Trus-Joist? Anyone remember? Reason I'm asking is because I was checking out their new engineer rafter, stud, and plate stock and asked the rep about stringer stock. He told me that their 1 1/8" X 11 7/8" rim board stock was rated for stringers spanning (maybe "running" is a better term) up to 16'. Sounded much more cost effective than LSL or LVL stock and could be an easier sell for me while still gaining strength, workability, and consistency that they offer.
Go here http://www.trusjoist.com/PDFFiles/2124.pdf for all the specs on TrusJoist's LSL stringer material at 1-1/4" thickness.
I would have used it, but the neanderthal lumberyards I have at my disposal cannot get it, thus my move into LVL.
The first time I built and installed a set of rough carriages, I used plain old CDX, ripped 4x8 sheets into 12-inch strips, then glued them together as 2-ply members. None of my stair runs then needed material longer than 8 feet.
The second time, again building for myself, I used LVLs at 9.5 depth, for a short span set of winders. Next, when building a spec house, I used SPF sawn lumber, and got the sawn lumber blues working with it.
The problem with the use of sawn lumber for stringers is partly lumber quality, but shrinkage is the biggest cause of squeaky stairs, and even the finest, flawless, straightest lumber will shrink. Those straight seat cuts you so painstakingly made when cutting them out at, say, 16 percent moisture content, turn into nicely crowned curves when the house gets into its second winter heating season, and the tringers go down to maybe 9 percent.
Probably the best thing you can do when building carriages from sawn lumber, is to lay out the pattern so you "clip the tips." See the attached sketch. Since sawn lumber isn't straight (and we know it is not) we snap a straight line at a location that will give us maybe 1-1/4" more of beam depth and correspondingly less height to the "teeth." Thus, "clipping the tips." We then lay out the cuts from the inside corners, rather than from the outside, where the tips are. This does a few good things for us. Laying out from the snapped line rather than from an edge with some curvature, no matter how little, gives us a better chance at cutting uniformity. Cutting less material rather than more, yields us somewhat more dimensional stability when moisture content reduces. Finally, adding more depth to the "beam," the uncut part of the member, adds greatly to the stiffness, because stiffness relates exponentially to beam depth. Remember, the typical stair carriage cut from a 2x10 is equivalent to gluing triangular blocks to a 2x4.
I really don't get it about this "cost of stringers being overkill," coming from the same guys that advocate four stud corners, double plated interior walls, stud-block-stud wall intersects, corner backing where drywall clips will do the same or better, and all the other things that they say "only adds a few bucks" to a frame job. Good stairs are important. People build houses with rooms they never go into, but they use their stairs every day.
Here's a great exercise to try. Take a pair of 8 foot SPF 2x12s, as straight as you can select, then do a regular stair cutout job on them. Do your absolute best to see that one is a dead-on pattern of the other. Then, don't make stairs with them. Instead, put 'em up in the rafters of your garage for a while. Let them season a bit. After a few months, take them down and see how they match up. You'll be surprised. Lumber doesn't only shrink and move, but each cut from the log will do it differently.
Your story about what the TrusJoist rep said about span capabilites of LSL stringer made me laugh. I did a dozen years of booth duty at the big NAHB Builders' show when I was in the door biz, and we used to get a kick out of what our field reps would tell builders about product and performance. The bottom line is this, and you can tell this when you digest the span info from the TrusJoist site: don't believe anything those salesmen will tell you. And I mean any salesman.Gene Davis, Davis Housewrights, Inc., Lake Placid, NY
Regarding the rep at the booth. He wasn't trying to sell me anything at all Gene. Just answering questions. I also recall him looking it up in a pamphlet to tell me how far they could span. It'd be a heck of a liability for this guy to be standing at a booth at JLC-Live telling everyone their product could span a distance it would actually fail at, don't you think?
Maybe I'll go poke around the website though, you've got me curious. I think it was Trus-Joist buy now I'm wondering if it wasn't Weyerhauser.
I remember seeing your clipped striger detail somewhere in my mis-spent youth.....what I don't remember is how you do the layout, since you can't use a square & stair gauges
I'm about to do a set of steps & would love to know....
Sharpen your pencil, get busy with the trigonometry, do it all longhand, or just whip out your calculator. What you want to find and lay out is all the inside corners.
Then scale up your rise-run by about 20 percent. That will be plenty to get your square heel point down past the layout corners. I'll give an example using 7 in 12, because it is easy to figure in my head. Set your stair gages at a rise of 8.4 inches, and a run of 14.4 inches. Let your calculator do the work and you'll get it in the fractions you need to see on the square.
Scribe away, and start cutting!Gene Davis, Davis Housewrights, Inc., Lake Placid, NY
Ima, U Da Man, dead nuts accuracy! Take a bow. I love cuttin carriages like that.
Hey, I appreciate the PDF. file, but all in all, I think I'd tack a nice straight rip to the top of my stringer & lay out with square & guages....quick, works, accurate enough....
"quick, works, accurate enough...."I don't think using a square & gauges produces results that are accurate enough. I lay exterior stringers out with that method but interiors (especially when they aren't getting covered with carpet) get the point to point measurement.You would be amazed at the accumulated error you may find in some of your stairs. I was when I really starting looking at the stringers I was producing with the square and gauges only.
Jon Blakemore RappahannockINC.com Fredericksburg, VA
Well....yes, but the stair I'm doing is only 3 risers, and I still haven't quite grasped how to do point to point layout...I have no problem doing the math for the hypotenuse, but then what?
If you can figure out the hypotenuse you're 90% there.If I have a run of stairs with a rise ot 7-1/4" and a run of 11" my hypotenuse is 13.1743". At the point where you first riser meets the tread make a mark. Then measure from this point making marks at 26.34", 39.53", 52.7, etc. I'm sure a Construction Master could figure this all out and convert to feet and inches if you like.
Jon Blakemore RappahannockINC.com Fredericksburg, VA
Hey, I got that part...all well and good.....but I still have to layout the cuts for the treads & risers....either I put the nuts on the square, or I eyeball to the tread & riser lenghts on the square...I'll grant you that you can double check with the hypotenuse marks, but you still have to lay out the cuts....
I guess I was not clear. Yes, you still have to use a framing square and gauges (or some other method) to mark for the cuts but the reason I like this method is every point you register from is dead on, not dependent on the adjacent markings.
Jon Blakemore RappahannockINC.com Fredericksburg, VA
I had never layed out a stringer point-to-point as you guys have suggested. Today, for sh1ts and giggles I layed out a stringer "my" way with stair guages and a framing square, stepped off. Then I went back and checked it point to point layed out by the hypoteneuse.
Whoops. Live and learn. I'm sold.
Hey Dieselpig, I believe it too...had plenty of experience with accumulated errors...but when you figure out how you lay out the exact point-to-point and THEN the tread & riser cuts, let me in on the secret, OK....
I'm not following you... was that sarcastic or are you being serious?
Dead serious...piece of cake to figure out the hypotenous for a given triangle....but then how do you step off the treads & risers from there, other than using a square?
Oh geez... is that what they're suggesting? Seriously. I believe you still have to step them off with a square.... at least I did.
As far as I can tell, the tick marks at the hypoteneuse are just for aligning your square to. That's all I used them for. I layed it out with my square and guages as normally, then went back to see how well the hypoteneous corresponded to the intersection of tread and riser along the boards edge. They were progressively off by an accumulated pencil line or so..... resulting in about 5/16" over the 12 or so risers I laid out. Next time I would just lay out the ticks at the repetitive hypoteneous and that would tell me where to put the square.
At least that's how I understood what they were talking about. You still need the square.
There.... clear as mud.
Diesel,Your exactly right. The math just gives you the points but you still have to fill in with a square.
Jon Blakemore RappahannockINC.com Fredericksburg, VA
In Framer's post, he has shown us how to use the Construction Master calculator to lay out the inside "heel" points along a piece of stringer stock.
In the attached pic, I am showing how the framing square, outfitted with stair gages and set to the desired rise and run, is used to scribe tread and riser cut lines. I used a 9-1/4 width 2x10, a rise of 7-3/8, a run of 10, and I snapped my "beam line" (shown dotted) so that my stringers have a healthy 4 inches under the heel cuts.
The square shown on the left has the tongue marking the riser cut, the one on the right is marking for the tread cut with the blade. The edges of blade and tongue are moved to intersect the points laid out using the calculator.
Stair carriages, once notched, are only as strong as what you leave uncut.
BTW, I don't own a CM calculator. I let my CAD program tell me where the tape should be hooked and read. I mark the points with the sharp tip of my scratchawl. The awl also marks the scribe lines for tread and riser cuts. If I'm going to cut out a stair set tomorrow, I measure today to get my total rises and runs, then sit down after dinner for a little session with the black screen, and print out the details.
Gene Davis, Davis Housewrights, Inc., Lake Placid, NY
Edited 7/5/2005 9:36 pm ET by Ima Wannabe
If you can figure out the hypotenuse you're 90% there.
If I have a run of stairs with a rise ot 7-1/4" and a run of 11" my hypotenuse is 13.1743". At the point where you first riser meets the tread make a mark. Then measure from this point making marks at 26.34", 39.53", 52.7, etc. I'm sure a Construction Master could figure this all out and convert to feet and inches if you like.
Jon,
I've never laid out stringers that way but on the Construction Master I would do this for decimals or Feet and Inches
7.25 [Inch] [Rise] 11[Inch] [Run]
[Diag] Returns - 13.17431"
[+] [=] Returns - 26.34862"
[=] Returns - 39.52294"
[=] Returns - 52.68725"
For Feet and Inches.
7 [Inch] 1/4 [Inch] [Rise]
11[Inch] [Run]
[Diag] Returns - 13-3/16"
[Feet] Returns - 1' 1-3/16"
[+] [=] Returns - 2' 2-3/8"
[=] Returns - 3' 3-1/2"
[=] Returns - 4' 4-11/16"
How would you mark decimals on your stringer?
Joe Carola
The Construction Master rounds up or down too much and you end up with an inaccurate layout.
As for the "Step Method". Remember the "Heisenberg Uncertainty Principle" from your physics class? If you do, then you will realize that the "step method" is about as sloppy as a lady of ill repute after nickle night.
I use decimal inches. I use the decimal equivalents of fractions and then layout using the hypotonuse in the memory of my calculator. I know 13.301" is a hair under 13 5/16ths" The next number ..26.602" is a hair over 26 9/16ths" and so on. It's not a big deal to use decimal inches. If you know that 13/16th" is .8125" and 7/8th" is .875" then if you get a number like .841", you just guestimate a point between and you get a very accurate layout.
I think those Construction Master calculators are a waste of money when you can get a nice scientific Casio at Office Depot for about 8 dollars. I have two at home and two at the jobsite. All that power for so little money.... Amazing.Mike Callahan, Lake Tahoe, Ca.
Formerly Dogwood Builders.
Formerly Myci. "We may be slow ..... But we're expensive."
Some say I was a guy named Larry too.
If you use the CM correctly it doesn't round off at all. It shows in 1/16th or whatever you have it set at, but it continues to keep track of the smaller fractions, factoring them back in when they accumulate to 1/16th... or whatever you have your calculator set at.
Try it.
7 1/2 " RISE
9" RUN
DIAG shows 11 11/16"
Hit + then = and you get 23 7/16", hit = again and you get 35 1/8" and so on.
If you just take 11 11/16 + 11 11/16 you get 23 1/8, then 35 1/16.
You get the point. The CM keeps track of all this for you, so there is actually ZERO accumulated error and no need to convert decimals to fractions. The display just shows you the number to the closest 1/16 which is really as tight a tolerance as you need. It doesn't round off at all. If 1/16 isn't accurate enough for you, you can set it all the way down to 1/64" tolerance.
I think those Construction Master calculators are a waste of money when you can get a nice scientific Casio at Office Depot for about 8 dollars.
Here we go again. I think your still dreaming if you tell me you can figure rafters faster with your calc than a CM but let's leave it at that.
As far as using decimals I never said it was a big deal, I just asked how Jon marked decimals on his stringer already knowing how to round off decimals to fractions and knowing what his answer would be. I can do it in my sleep.
then if you get a number like .841", you just guestimate a point between and you get a very accurate layout.
Your talking about Construction Masters having inaccurate layouts and your just guestimating which I believe what your doing is accurate enough, but the CM doesn't round up or down to much. Where talking about marking a set of stairs. Unfortunately I only cut outside stringers because nobody cuts stairs for inside of house accept for stair companies.
I layout my stringers with a framing square and cut one stringer and use it as a pattern and have always done that way with no problems. As far as cutting stairs and working in a stair shop I would do it any day and would love to do it becasue cutting stairs to me is just as good as cutting rafters.
Let's start another thread on how everyone lays out stairs using decimals, inches and fractions or feet and inches. No matter what way everyone does it you still take out the framing square to mark the rise and run, right, or what ways do you do it and do you hold the square exactly where your supposed too?
Joe Carola
Why not a simple pc. of plywood[triangle] cut 7 7/8 x 10 inches.
Ya gotta mark the cut lines regardless of how ya came up with them.
Why not a simple pc. of plywood[triangle] cut 7 7/8 x 10 inches.Ya gotta mark the cut lines regardless of how ya came up with them.
Are you talking about laying out the first stringer? If so I did that a couple times but with a cut out from a pice of 2x12 with a piece of 5/4 nailed on top like I do for my rafter patterns. You have to allow for a pencil thickness like you do when you layout 16" centers with your framing square.
I still cut out the first stringer and use that as a pattern because you can't go wrong like that just like the rafter pattern.
Joe Carola
Smile
What did I miss Dood?Joe Carola
The guy and the calc comment.
I do smile when I here the calc comments.....;-) ;-) ;-)Joe Carola
You can figure rafters for me anytime. I am happy to nail them.
"How would you mark decimals on your stringer?"I have the decimal equivalents of fractions memorized so I just convert in my head. Basically the same thing Mike Callahan does.
Jon Blakemore RappahannockINC.com Fredericksburg, VA
That's what I figured you did. It's just a accurate as using the feet and inches on the Construction Master.Joe Carola
I need the accuracy of point to point layout when I'm concerned about where the end of my carriages are hitting and especially if there going at the end of an opening where I need to make a bird's mouth notch to hit the edge of the opening. I can simply measure my total run and layout the difference to the nearest tread and it's right the 1st time. If I get a good read with a laser bob I can always get them within a 16".
Been there, done that. Not any more though.
I use my 30 second ply pattern and toss it out every job.
blue
Brian,
TrusJoist has a ton of cool products. I would kill to use the rafters stock :-)
The LSL stringer material we get is rim. It is stamped right on the side. I swear building stairs goes faster now and it turns out a lot cleaner.
Here is a set I cut last summer. I found the pics at JLC :-)
http://forums.jlconline.com/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=228
http://forums.jlconline.com/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=229
>> We rarely run skirting, so I nail a 1x4 to the side of the stringers so 1/2" drywall can slide down next to the stringer and not be cut. << and >> 1" OSB bull nose treads glued and nailed all the way up. << Interesting... I've never seen it done that way... so the drywall just goes down past the risers & treads and the carpet covers the gaps? Seems like, longterm, the drywall would be suseptable to damage? We always use skirt boards. Matt
I'll try and get some shots of the stairs Jasen built on the house I posted all the pics on in the photo gallery today. That is the way I was taught how to build the stairs and it has worked in this company for 25 years.
What I've noticed (my father is the owner of the company I work for) is that in each of the houses I grew up in where the stairs were framed this way, was that the wear pattern on the carpet (lived in one house for 10 years) is right down the center. So the drywall doesn't get damaged like you'd think it would.
I was thinking the same thing...no skirt, yer knickers are gonna show LOL
A coupla thoughts... Re the first pic (steps across the street) we always nail 2x4s to the sides of the stringers for additional stiffness - usually both sides. Re your steps, no can argue with the strength of those LVL stringers - they look like 11 1/4" ones.... I don't know what your span was, but do you think 9" 1/4" ones would have done the job?
Edited 7/1/2005 6:26 am ET by DIRISHINME
Are you still sneakin around other peoples jobsites with a camera? Why post pictures of other people's work that you object to? How about we all come to your jobsite and point out your faults? If you want to crow about a design that you copied out of a book , go ahead, but leave the other guys alone!
The stringers look good , but the LVL's are over kill. What do you think folks did before LVL's came along? There are methods for building stairs out of dimension stock that have worked for ages.
I know the owners, who have been to my site, and they invited me to theirs. And their framer's been sneaking around mine. Don't know if he carries a camera.
That other job I photographed from the road, earlier this year, is the hot topic of conversation in the neighborhood, what with all the legal notices being Fedexed to the local property owners, inviting us to the upcoming permit violation hearing. From reading the documents, it appears the owner broke every rule in the book. I am not the only one who photographed it, either, judging from the pics in the local press, and the people driving by with cameras.
You needn't throw rocks at me for photographing other people's work. It has been done by plenty of other of us Breaktimers.
And as regards the use of engineered lumber for stringers, why haven't you commented to Tim Uhler telling him how much overkill it is to use Trus Joist laminated strand lumber (LSL)? Or is it just me you want to needle?
Gene Davis, Davis Housewrights, Inc., Lake Placid, NY
Edited 7/1/2005 5:09 pm ET by Ima Wannabe
People seem to get very protective about mistakes. Hey, we all make them.
http://forums.taunton.com/tp-breaktime/messages?msg=59814.1
Shoot the messenger, I guess.
FF
How about running some 6 mil poly on the outside wall before you nail lumber to it? Makes ther insulation installation guy happy.
Have a good day
Cliffy
good call cliffy, was waiting for that one - you beat me to it. way easier than running acoustical seal at the seam, ya know how messy that stuff gets in a tight spot behind a stringer.
I know how messy that crap is bercause my wife reminds me when she does the laundry! Luckily I don't get into that too often.
Have a good day!
Cliffy
LOL...yeah cuz you smart and run the poly.