Router my own ply for ” warmboard”:
spindrift67
| Posted in Construction Techniques on
I’m doing a subfloor and was also installing warmboard, but that stuff is $189+ shipping. What do you think about routing my own grooves and installing some radiant barrior under that or under the floor some how. I’ll use 1-1/8 ply and have free labor to run the router. I’m concerned if it won’t pass IF they catch it, or will it compromise the ply if it’s not made for that. Warmboard may make their own ply for that application, I can’t see how else you can make ply differently. Damon
Replies
spindrift67
there is another way..
install the heat tube underneath.. use aluminum flashing to hold it up in place and transfer heat. I made mine slightly nicer by running it thru my bead roller which transfers more heat than just laying it on top of the flashing..
Since heat radiates every way you need to put foil faced foam underneath it to maximise heat going up into the floor..
If you want exact details just e-mail me..
Frenchy,
What's heat tub? Also what's a bead roller? Thanks Damon
Bead rollers come in many shapes & forms.
Instead of explaining, here is a link to one.
http://www.tinmantech.com/html/beadsheetmetal.php
"heat tub" is a typo
I'm sure the frenchman meant "heat tube"
edit------ I went back & looked at Frenchy's post, he did say heat tube.
Heat tube is the radiant piping.
“The world is a dangerous place, not because of those who do evil, but because of those who look on and do nothing.” —Albert Einstein
Edited 2/10/2008 6:03 pm ET by plumbbill
Spindrift67
Sorry heat tube or wirsbo, pex. the stuff that carries the hot water that heats the floor..
A bead roller is a tool used to roll a bead into metal. I have mine from my auto restoration years.. when I'd form my own bodies for the race cars.. they sell for a few hundred dollars now days but every once in a while you'll see them on sale for less..
Oh yea I would like the details so I can get a better picture. Thanks, D
There is another way.
A neighbor has this design (by a radiant contractor) he's going to use. 5/8's osb 6'' strips run the width of the hose apart. Turns are routed arc's cut with a template in a 1' strip of osb and laid at each end of the runs. Believe the hose is stapled down. Not sure of this but maybe there's a reflectant barrier laid down 1st.
Routing all those strips seems a bit much.
A Great Place for Information, Comraderie, and a Sucker Punch.
Remodeling Contractor just outside the Glass City.
http://www.quittintime.com/
Where was that photo essay I saw on doing just what you describe, Calvin?
Pics showed the jigs for the end turnaround parts, etc.
Was it right here at Breaktime? Was it in FH? JLC?
Uponor QuicTrac is very expensive, but this alternative warrants a little cost study. Plywood, shop labor, and a reflective surface are all expensive too, when you add things up.
I don't know that I've seen it anywhere Gene. That is, I don't remember.........
But the system was being explained to the neighbor homowner down the block while I was framing up his interior walls. The radiant guy will supply the hose/fittings/manifolds and perhaps the rad. barrier. He gave the homowner the router jig for the turns and I did hear him plan for an approx. 6'' center on the hose. I believe they're using 5/8's osb, again ripped approx. 6'' and laying down the strips, routing and installing the turn boards, then stapling the hose.
Let me give him a call this week and see if I overheard correctly or perhaps missed something.
His labor is of course his time, the osb not too costly-approx 672 sf. Jig is done, there's maybe 50' of end turn length, shouldn't take long for that.A Great Place for Information, Comraderie, and a Sucker Punch.
Remodeling Contractor just outside the Glass City.
http://www.quittintime.com/
Your method is the best DIY method.The only thing I'll add is that I've ripped the filler strips with a couple degrees of bevel (blade tilt) on the table saw. Essentially gives you a filler strip and PEX pattern that looks like this:____/O____/O____/O____/With this type of setup it helps lock the tubing into place.'Course that was way back in the olden days, now I'm living an almost construction-free life of leisure!Mongo
now I'm living an almost construction-free life of leisure!
Mongo
Well, aren't we the hoity boy.A Great Place for Information, Comraderie, and a Sucker Punch.
Remodeling Contractor just outside the Glass City.
http://www.quittintime.com/
I like that mongo, the bevel would be the way to go. The homeowner and friend would be giving me the free labor. It's just a 32'x 48' sq. Just the cost of warmboard alone for that much w/o shipping is $9000.00 normally I could sheet that in under a half day with a helper. So I'm thinking with taking my time spacing and gluing it will take maybe two full days after I sheet it with the spec. out ply of 3/4 t&G or that foil faced ply with foil up. Still a under half I'm figuring, right? D
free labor from the router guy ?
does he know what he's in for ?
why don't you put down 3/4" Advantech and then put your tubes on top of that with a Quiktrak system ?
http://www.uponor-usa.com/Header/Service/For%20Professionals/Products%20and%20Tools/Products%20and%20Materials/QuickTrack%20Floor%20Panel%20Installation.aspx
there are a handful of products out there that i just don't "get" and Warmboard is one of them.
carpenter in transition
I like your idea, the free labor does'nt want to go under the ply and seems like way more work, like gravity working against you for one and I see neck problems, second. So lay 5/8 or 3/4 advantect foil face up I presume and then rip 6" strips to
1. butt against and/or either side of tubing
2. fir to top of tubing so flooring can go down.
3 and keep everything in line and in place?
One thing I don't get the routed 1' strip for the returns, I thought the tubing doesn't go into the groove. OR is the 1' strip just cut with a router in a arc for the tubing to go around?
Most of the process seems real easy and way less cost. Basically it's two layers of ply on the joists.
I've installed warmboard and used ply rips and routed curves for corners.
Warmboard is easy to install, holds the tubing well, the aluminum gets more heat out of the tubing than plain ply, holds the tubing well, insures a flat floor, and holds the tubing well. Did I mention it holds the tubing well? Ply rips don't always hold, especially around corners, but if you go the ply route it's a great idea to add a bevel to any straight rips.
Can your system work with the less effective ply? If your heat calcs are maxed out with warmboard you'll never get enough heat in the room with simple ply. However, if you have a really well insulated house it would work fine.
The first problem you'll find is how hard it is to keep the ply rips exactly right. Always use scrap tube as spacers when nailing. I can't imagine not using construction adhesive under each rip so that adds to time and cost.
For sections of tube that don't sit down you'll glue them with silicone caulk and it's often a good idea to screw a ply scrap over the tube until the caulk has hardened.
When routing the corners I get more milage from Whiteside bits than any other. One bit will cut enough curves in ply for about 1,000 sqft of space.
Instead of various curves of an exact radius, you'll get more milage from a template shaped more like a section of a french curve. Siimply rotate it until it matches what you need. The tube won't care if it's not a perfect radius.
Good luck!
PS Did you block under the Warmboard curves as per specs? The cuts in the decking weaken it enough that it's good to follow the instructions.
Beer was created so carpenters wouldn't rule the world.
IdahoDon,
Block at ends?
Don't I just go over the first structual layer of 3/4 or 5/8 ply foil face up? Here's a picture of what I think everyone is saying.
The factory Warmboard pannels can be used without any other sub floor decking. If used in that way, the factory pannels need to have blocking installed between floor joists to better support the radiused groved sections.
I wasn't suggesting the warmboard alternative needed anything like that.
Cheers
Beer was created so carpenters wouldn't rule the world.
I did a top of sbfloor installation using 3/4 ply and aluminum plates that the pex-al-pex tubing snaps into. I used 8" wide plywood rips with 1" spacing in between (9"centers). Plates simply staple to the floor.
View Image
Uponor's QuikTrac may have been a lower-cost alternative, to your use of JoistTrac-type plates over a grooved substrate.
At 8" spacing, my cost for the on-top JoistTrac plates would amount to about $2.40 per square foot, and then I would have the cost of the 3/4 ply plus the cost to rip it. That might add another $1.50. Total, $3.90.
QuikTrac would be about $3.70 per square foot.
Comparisons:
Your on-top plates at 8" centers can probably deliver more heat, in that plates can handle either 3/8" or 1/2" tubing, depending on the plate used.
QuikTrac is fixed at 7" centers and the use of 5/16" HPEX only.