I am looking for a middle of the road router table. I have no dust collection system, will use it outside, not for production work, don’t need a lot of fancy attachments – just a good solidly built one which I can keep for many years. Any suggestions and where is the best place to purchase it?
Thanks,
dlb
.
The undisciplined life is not worth examining.
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Replies
I think you are talking to the wrong guys here. I brought up a similar question before and it was near unanimous at both Breaktime and Knots that you cannot buy a good router table....you must make one.
Of course I didn't believe such a thing so I designed one myself and sent it to several tool manufacturers. Ridgid seemed most interested and accepted my drawings. Who knows, maybe you can buy that in a couple of years.
gk
"cannot buy a good router table....you must make one."
Gabe,
Somewhere I recall seeing a router table that was in fact a replacement left of the blade wing for a Delta table saw. Cast iron and went for less than $300. That would make for one good router table. Just Googled and found it.
Bench Dog 40-031 ProMax Cast Iron Router Table/Table Saw Extension Bench Dog
List Price:
$320.00Price:
$299.99
Jon
Edited 5/13/2004 9:54 am ET by WorkshopJon
When does a router and table become a shaper?
They seem quite similar in function.
Mike
Novice Door Maker
"When does a router and table become a shaper?"
Price, and use of a mandrel rather than collets to hold the cutters.
Jon
I'm in the market for a router table and these questions have been haunting me.
Is the Bosch router table a piece ####?
Do I have to take the time to make my own to get any degree of a quality in a table?
i have the bosch- for a job site table it is fine.
freud router in it
my table is easy to set and stays true
I would love to buy a shaper because I know that I will need one for future work, but I do not have a place to use it nor am I willing to commit the funds required to buy a good one.
dlb
.
The undisciplined life is not worth examining.
money?
what's that got to do with anything? ;o)
Edited 5/13/2004 11:44 am ET by rez
They make bench top shapers and the space need by a decent router is less than the space required for a trash can.. if working space is an issue put it on wheels! I have all my shop tools on wheels since I work with such long boards..
I wheel them out, lock them down , do the work, and wheel them back..
A good shaper is cheaper than a router and router table..
I have that setup. It is not cast iron, as you can see. It is melamine with aluminum frames. I like it, but there is a a lot of T Track which fills up with dust fairly quickly. Like others, I jury-rigged a shop vac to it.
I like the table a lot.Regards,
Boris
"Sir, I may be drunk, but you're crazy, and I'll be sober tomorrow" -- WC Fields, "Its a Gift" 1934
"I have that setup. It is not cast iron,"
Boris,
Are you sure we are talking about the same thing? I've never seen one first hand. $300 seems pretty pricey for a piece of melamine, plus the description says it's cast iron. On the other hand. I see the shipping weight is only 30lbs, but it could just be a thinwall casting. I'm going to post in Knots and see if anybody there knows.
Jon
Bench Dog 40-031 ProMax Cast Iron Router Table/Table Saw Extension
Features:
Mounts to almost any right-tilt 10" table saw
Accepts Feather-Loc featherboards, Panel-Loc, and fence riser options
Fully adjustable miter track with 3/4" miter gauge t-slot and accessory t-slot
Flat, square and true fence stows away when not in use
Includes cast iron router top, fence, insert plate, and hardware
Edited 5/17/2004 2:12 pm ET by WorkshopJon
Edited 5/17/2004 2:24 pm ET by WorkshopJon
Well, now that you mention it, maybe they make two types. I have one that is aluminum and melamine.Regards,
Boris
"Sir, I may be drunk, but you're crazy, and I'll be sober tomorrow" -- WC Fields, "Its a Gift" 1934
I would like a matal table so if I go that route do you have any suggestions? I would love to build one and if I can't find what I am looking for I may do so. If I buy a table top I could build the stand.
dlb
.
The undisciplined life is not worth examining.
Even using it outside, you will find table fills up with chips pretty quick. I use an old sears 16gal. shopvac.
I would check out woodhaven. If ya want to buy one.
Darkworksite4:
El americano pasado hacia fuera ase la bandera
I just saw one at the place I buy veneer today. Had CMT all over it. Darn if it didn't look just like what most of us build. Cabinet, solid top, insert, fence, etc. Didn't even look at the price. It looked like the unit might be knock down . . . that actually could be useful if it was still sturdy. You could pack it in a truck and take it to a trim job.
"If you pick up a starving dog and make him prosperous, he will not bite you. This is the principal difference between a dog and a man." - Mark Twain
First,
why would you buy a router table?
It's the same as taking your skil saw and turning it upside down and calling it a sawing table!
Routers are and should be hand tools. if you need to do some shaping (which is what you do on a router table) buy a shaper!
They have them for not much money and in fact for the price you pay for a decent router table you can buy a shaper!
Grizzly has a wonderful shaper for only $225 there are also bench top shapers if that's your thing (ugh)
The cutters on a shaper last longer and they are much quieter! you can also buy an adaptor to use your router bits on the shaper..
Frenchy
I have well over $3500 in router bits, bits that I can use both in a hand held router and a router table. That's one of the reasons for having a router table. Some things you cant do with a hand held router.
I also have a shaper, a real one, its an old Cresent(sp?), good shaper cutters for it are not cheap, I would not personally buy a grizzly shaper cutter.
There are a lot of reasons for having a router table, maybe in building a timber frame home you have no need for one but I work in a high end cabinet shop(some kitchens that run around $100.000)We have three shapers around the shop, and two of the four workers have a router table in their work area. The router tables get used regularly.
I also have one of my own and I use it a lot, they do have there place.
Doug
Doug,
Grizzly cutters are modestly priced with a reasonable degree of quality. Their better grade of cutters seem to be fairly well rated.
I cannot speak to all shapers nor to all cutters for those shapers but I will say that for the average hobbiest they are an acceptable value at a modest price..
I do not know what the demands of your shop are so for me to speak knowledgeably would be foolish...
I will say that for the hobbiest or homeowner it is extremely easy to spend too much for tools and equipment.
That forces a person to create jigs and adaptors to use a tool in a manner it was never really intended. While they delay the purchase of a proper tool..
My classic example is if they make router tables why doesn't anybody make a table to use a skil saw in the same fashion?
The answer is my opinion of the router tables I've seen and used..
Doug,
That's a good example. Seems I remember a discussion about that.
gk
"That forces a person to create jigs and adaptors to use a tool in a manner it was never really intended. While they delay the purchase of a proper tool..
My classic example is if they make router tables why doesn't anybody make a table to use a skil saw in the same fashion?"
Sorry Frenchy,
but I have to disagree. Given that most shapers have a 3/4" mandrel, there use is limited to large cutters. Router tables have there place, mostly for use with smallish router bits. Router bit are also in general, size for size, cheaper.
Both Jet and grizzley sell shapers with adapters to use router bits.. I don't know about the others such as delta General etc.
The smaller Jet and the smaller Grizzly use a 1/2 inch mandrel.
My objection to router lift tables is two fold, First since they are smaller there is a tendancy to use them for smaller pieces without using the proper safety gear.
Too often I've seen small pieces shoved past those spinning blades with nothing more than their fingernail as protection (another words no protection) the excuse is that it's too hard to hold onto something that small using push sticks and hold downs.
Second, access to the shut off switch is usually well hidden or not easily accessed..putting the operator at further risk.
(not a real issue but a pet peeve of mine is the noise those dang theings make compared to a shaper)
Finally while shaper bits are more expensive they stay sharp much, much,. much,... longer, more than offsetting their additional cost..
Delta's shaper also has a adapter for router bits. The problem I see with it is there is a optimal speed in which router bits can /should be used based on their size. most shapers have to slow of a RPM to use the smaller router bits. So a router table is necessary in a shop along with a shaper.
Darkworksite4:
El americano pasado hacia fuera ase la bandera
Ron,
Can you explain why the slower speed of a shaper should hurt a router bit? Router bits are made of the same grade HHS or carbide for either shaper cutter or router bit usage?
I'd heard too the story of router bits and shapers but whenever I used a router bit in my old Jet shaper (I had to borrow the adapter) it worked just fine and never seemed to hurt the bit.. In fact I still use that same router bit today and I must have run over 5000 bd.ft. over that bit..
"Can you explain why the slower speed of a shaper should hurt a router bit?"
I'll jump in here. It's all about surface speed at the cutting edges. The larger the cutter, the slower it needs to turn. Now you know that (right?). Spinning a cutter too slow can cause it to catch on the lumber being milled, and gouge it. Probably wouldn't hurt the cutter though, unless it snapped it.
Jon
It's speeds and feeds. You're right that running a big shaper cutter at 25,000 RPM would be more than the cutting edges could stand. If you feed the wood fast, you'd break them, if you feed it slow, they'd burn.
The other way, running a little router bit slowly, has the problem that you'd also have to feed the wood into it very very slowly. Otherwise, you'd get scallops from the passage of each cutting edge, instead of a smooth surface.
-- J.S.
John ,
yeh I noticed that but I made a couple of passes and things seemed plenty smooth to me,
but then what do I know, I'm just a hack beginner. I'm certain nearly everyone here his more talented than I am, my only saving grace is I'm so stupid I don't know that you can't do it that way.. ;-(
Frenchy here is a chart from Marc Sommerfeld on router for the size of bits.
http://www.sommerfeldtools.com/tutorial-suggestions.asp
Darkworksite4:
El americano pasado hacia fuera ase la bandera
I've read charts like that for most of my adult life. it mearly speaks to the size of the bit not to what happens when operated slower than recommended speed.
No chart I've ever seen shows where a cutter is damaged by running at slower than recommended speed.. In my stuff with my feeder I got a chart someplace that speaks of wood and feeder speed vs cutter rpm and size..
What it basically says is that for larger cutters they are damaged or dangerous by too fast a speed.
I personally Have used smaller router bits in my old shaper and they cut just fine as long as I feed the stock slow enough. If I feed the stock too fast the cut was wavy but I could always straighten it out by making another pass at a slower feed speed.
Since I think that you'll agree (as does the chart) that most fixed speed routers are too fast for the bigger bits. That leads to a dangerous condition..
Yet with care a slower speed cutter/bit can and does work.. at slower speed I think you'll agree that the edge takes less of a beating than at higher speed.. thus it remains sharper longer..
If you mill as much wood as I do you know that the cost of sharpening bits/cutters will quickly exceed the original cost of the bit/cutter..
"Yet with care a slower speed cutter/bit can and does work.. at slower speed I think you'll agree that the edge takes less of a beating than at higher speed."
Frenchy,
Running a router bit too slow can cause it to grab to workpiece, and is dangerous if the work is being feed by hand. Besides, router bits are what WE CALL a perishable tool. Compared to the labor associated with using them, they're chump change in the overall process, even at $100 or $200 a pop.
Jon
Running a router/cutter too slow cannot grab if it's feed at the proper speed. It will only grab if feed too fast!
I suppose that if we are talking about 50 rpm or some such speed there could be a case made that no feed speed is slow enough, but shapers still turn around 7000 rpm (depends on...)
As for your final comment, Chump change?
let's assume that one bit gets dull with 200 bd.ft. while another lasts 3500 bd.ft.
How much labor would you have to stop, disconnect, change out the bit, reconnect and restart? now either add your time to resharpen or send the bit off to be resharpened?
Yes I've lost HHS bits in 200 bd.ft. carbide only lasted a little longer on some teak I used for my boat..
I can change the cutters in my shaper much faster than in most router tables too.
I look at it like this. If you have a high performance car and drive it at 20 miles and hour will it hurt it not at first it will take a long while and while it will work will you get optimal performance out of it? No I dont think so.
You can do what you want. Its your tools and your money and your projects. I prefer to stay with in the limits the tool was designed for.
But I do agree with you in that my pal and mentor used to laugh when we went to woodshows together when someone would say You cant do that. He'd say wow Ive been doing it wrong for the last 20 years. I didnt know it wouldnt work if I did that.
So bottom line is you can do what ever works for you.
Darkworksite4:
El americano pasado hacia fuera ase la bandera
Frenchy,
I'm shaking my head it disbelief as to most of those comments. Nothing I can say is going to change your mind, and normally I avoid flames, but this is an issue of safety, and there is a reason routers spin router bits as fast as they do. And it's not just so one can be more productive.
Makes me wonder if you have actually ever worked with wood.
So now I'm back to the workshop. Bye
Jon
Jon,
Fair question, on advanced search go to 39444.1 and check out my work..
I could post things like the grandfather clock and boxes I've made but heck, check out a work in progress..
Let me say this for your benefit, I did almost all of that work myself. What I didn't do I hired others to help me with it, others with no experiance or history in working with wood.. Math teachers, theatre majors, preachers, sprinkler installers.etc..
"Fair question, on advanced search go to 39444.1 and check out my work.."
Geez Frenchy, It was only four days ago.
http://forums.taunton.com/n/mb/message.asp?webtag=tp-breaktime&msg=43524.1#a11
Really, I don''t doubt your past abilities, but I take issue with safety.
Sorry,
Jon
I'm leanin to agree with you in almost all of what you said. There are MANY router bits that are anti-kickback design, and will not "grab" the work at lower RPMS..they are limited chip removal bits.
The draw back to these cutters is that the chips cooling effect is hampered..they run hotter, and they can more challengeing to sharpen
I for one do not call a 200.00 bit, disposable chump change..but Jon and his Co. may. My most expensive bit(s) would be stile and rail sets..had em for years and they will last me for years to come.
A 3'' dia. panel raiseing bit would be MUCH safer and work better at 10K RPM which is topend on some shapers..than at 22K which is the norm for nonvariable speed routers.
Spheramid Enterprises Architectural Woodworks
Repairs, Remodeling, Restorations.
Jon may have a point,
to an inexperianced wood worker they could perhaps buy a cheap open bit and run it on their shaper too slow and have the wood grab..
On the other hand a large diameter router bit is too scary for me to use (in a router table or not) I can see somebody use those handrail router bits without the proper level of care and.......oops!
I doubt Jon will ever change his mind and I'd need a great deal of informed discussion before I were to change mine..
WOW! An actual disagreement here at breaktime! I never expected to see it..
Frenchy, you BOTH have a valid point..that's what I'm sayin. NO one unfamiliar with cutting geometry and tip speed (NOT SHAFT SPEED) should venture into the unknown with out guidance.
Jon is right, you are right..when taken in context.
Those 2 wing shaper cutters ( and I still remember the single knife inserts too) ARE deadly..and the exact same reason holds true for router bits..there is too much open area around the wings (cutter edges) that will trap a hunk of wood and project it into your spleen..I have seen it happen.
BUT a Limited Kick Back bit, will greatly reduce the possibility of this occuring..like the difference between a plane iron having support for the shaving ahead of the cut, Vs. a Slick pushing a splinter out ahead of it..you can get stabbed by the splinter, buy only get a curler from a plane..
That's why you both are more or less correct.
Spheramid Enterprises Architectural Woodworks
Repairs, Remodeling, Restorations.
Sure sphere,
You're right, the difficult thing about the internet is getting all the varibles correct. What I do without thinking is not always easy to convey.
It really hurts that I'm dyslexic and the letters are wearing off my keyboard.
Because of my problem I have to constantly look for the key each and every time I need it..
The touch typing that most of you do without thinking can take me a long time to replicate..
Often a message this length takes me a half hour to type...
Using spell check often does not work With dyslexia the word is often so screwed up the spell check function has no idea of what I'm trying to say and to me the word looks OK!
"I doubt Jon will ever change his mind and I'd need a great deal of informed discussion before I were to change mine..
WOW! An actual disagreement here at breaktime! I never expected to see it.."
Well Frenchy, at least you can maintain your sense of humor.
Jon
> A 3'' dia. panel raiseing bit would be MUCH safer and work better at 10K RPM which is topend on some shapers..than at 22K which is the norm for nonvariable speed routers.
Does anybody have a rule of thumb for relating RPM to maximum safe diameter?
-- J.S.
my last shaper a SCMI duel spindle had a chart inside the door..similar to a drill press chart.
Not only is the diameter a consideration, the number of wings is what determines chip load.
I know from experience that a pineapple cutter ( 6" tall,4'' dia. with staggered rows of carbide teeth 1/2'' wide) could easily run at 15K RPM our top end. A similar cutter with 3 concave flutes with a 17'' radius ( for fingerboards on guitars) would also run well. On the other end of things a 5" dia. three wing panel raiser would tend to burn a slow feed, and a faster feed was eithet unsafe, or not possible. So a slower speed made for a better cut.
I forget the calc. for arbor speed/tip speed..say a 7.5'' blade vs. a 10'' blade on a tablesaw..I think we ran the 20'' Tannewitz tablesaw at 1350RPM at the arbor..and the blade was singing just fine.
Spheramid Enterprises Architectural Woodworks
Repairs, Remodeling, Restorations.
Heres a link to a chart that I posted earlier in this thread that has the recommended rpms
43247.33
Darkworksite4:
El americano pasado hacia fuera ase la bandera
Thanks -- I've transferred that info to a post-it stuck inside my router case. Exactly what I was looking for.
-- J.S.
I emailed Wayne who is the owner of woodline router bits and asked him the question about router bits being used inna shaper here is his reply. I hope this helps. he also gives his number for any addtional questions. Call him i met him before and he is a really nice guy with a lot of knowledge. they also sell both router bits and shaper bits.
Bits can be used with excellent results in a shaper. THe slower RPM is only an issue if you try to feed the material aggressively. THen you must realize that shaper bits are not only larger they are also 3 wing giving more cuts per revolution than a router bit with only two cutting surfaces. Many router bits over 1" in diameter will actually perform as well or better in a shaper due to the higher power and torque output of the shaper. The rule to follow is to watch the shavings. If you are getting clean shavings with clean cut edges and no burning you are probably doing very well. If the cut is ragged try feeding it slower to produce a slightly finer chip. On small bits you will have to reduce the feed rate to avoid excess stress on the bit. I wrote the chart and was conservative when I did it. Hope this helps and feel free to communicate more if I can be of assistanceOur phone number is 800-472-6950 and ask for Wayne
Darkworksite4:
El americano pasado hacia fuera ase la bandera
Um. What's a mandrel? How is it different??? I've used routers, but I always wondered about shapers. especially as I'd like to build some doors, windows, and orher stuff I just haven't tried before. Very informative thread!
"What's a mandrel?"
It's a shaft. IQ question.....A shaper is to a man, like a router is to a ???????? Or should it be the other way around?
Jon
arbor may be more accurate.
don't go gettin all excited now, just helpin..{G<D<R}
View Image
Spheramid Enterprises Architectural Woodworks
Repairs, Remodeling, Restorations.
I built a router table several years ago. A nice one. A couple of years ago I bought a 3 HP Delta shaper to do bigger work with more precision. I thought I would still use the router table for smaller work. Wrong! I never used it again.
Matter of fact I recently bought my shaper a twin brother for when I cut stile and rail.
One difference between router table and shaper is you never see a power feed on the router table, not that it couldnt be done.
As far as running small router bits on the shaper, slow down the feed or make an extra pass. Not a big deal.
Lessons learned like that are why guys like me get paid well enough to have too much time to spend here.
You braggin again? There is a helluva lot more in life besides material wealth and status..if ya want to fluant like a pompus azz go ahead..but check up a bit..I was being helpful.
And re read your grammer.."paid well enough to HAVE TOO MUCH time to spend here"
Paid well enough to put your foot in your Freudian mouth.
Get over your self..we all love you too...
Spheramid Enterprises Architectural Woodworks
Repairs, Remodeling, Restorations.
Edited 5/25/2004 5:17 pm ET by SPHERE
Duane,
You are right on that one, and am going to delete that post.
Thanx.
Jon
Edit: Sometimes some people need a reality check.
Edited 5/25/2004 5:32 pm ET by WorkshopJon
all is cool, have a beer. {G}
Spheramid Enterprises Architectural Woodworks
Repairs, Remodeling, Restorations.
"have a beer"
Sphere,
Well, the wife just called and let me know she is on the way home,...And I think I have 1 Sprecher in the fridge. Plus I have to rap it up and make dinner.
Finally got around to installing that tile I got from Ralph Wicklund. Just have to finish the other stuff above of it tomorrow. So far, looks good.
That HF tile saw,...For $200 is A DEAL. Probably nothing close to a Felkner, But, boy have I gotten my money's worth out of it.
Jon
Cool, not all thier stuff is junk..I got 6 of the right angle grinders now..last sale was 9.99 ea. Have not fried one yet...and I been grinding logs witha chainsaw disk. Old HARD White Oak..might as well be concrete.
Spheramid Enterprises Architectural Woodworks
Repairs, Remodeling, Restorations.
"not all thier stuff is junk"
Sphere,
Yeah, and plenty is, but plenty is not, and for what they charge for some stuff, it's worth the risk. Just placed an order yesterday, The biggie on the list is that US General rollerchest combo they have been pushing. I'll let you know what it's like. At 600lbs for the combo, with ballbearing slides, it sounds like a $5K Lista knockoff.
Jon
Jon, we have a HF right up in Lexington, the nice thing about that is I can actually see what I am thinking of buying, the bad thing is when ya go in, ya find all the goodies not in the mailer.
I'll be up there later this week, need another handtruck. I was moving some huge blocks of limestone, and well, took out a wheelbarrow handle ( I made a new one from old white oak) and trashed a handtruck..before I got with the program and hooked up the F350 and drug them where I needed them..
live an learn..
good luck with the tool chest, I'll have looksee when I stop in.
later
Spheramid Enterprises Architectural Woodworks
Repairs, Remodeling, Restorations.
"we have a HF right up in Lexington,'
Sphere,
And we have one pretty close (think 5 miles away) too. Never looked into how they get around the sales tax thing, but it's still cheaper to mail order. My guess is that somehow the stores are not legally affiliated...or they simply remit the tax to the state and not tell the purchaser, to let them think they're getting a better deal direct.
Jon
dlb.. we have the bench dog table.. and the pro-lift.. and a great makita mounted on it..
if i were doing it again .. i'd buy a delta shaper.. i'd have a better rig.. more versatility and it would probably cost less...
but the bench dog and the Pro-lift are damn nice
Mike Smith Rhode Island : Design / Build / Repair / Restore