I’m new to doing much trim work and I’m having some problems with being very efficient.
My boss is also fairly youngish (how about that for hedging) and he hasn’t been hassling me about my speed but I know I should be going faster.
I generally try to go into a room and take all my measurements, then cut and cope and then make the trip back so I’m only walking to the saw once. But I seem to always hit a snag.
A couple of questions…
1) How much variation from 45 and 90 degrees, etc. can one reasonably expect? It seems that in the houses I’m trimming no corner can be expected to be plum and 90. I’m coping my 90s and the bottom of the cope never wants to meet the square-cut piece. I realize it’s the drywall and tape holding the top of the square-cut piece out from plum…but it bothers me. Should I have to shim out the bottom edge of each square cut piece? Or adjust the bevel when I’m cutting for my cope? Do you seasoned pros do this every time? I only nail the top of the square-cut piece so I don’t pinch the bottom in too tight.
2) Say you have a piece running from an outside 45 to an inside 45…the wall bows in a little over 1/2″ between the two corners. It’s easy to cut the pieces to fit (even after cutting and re-cutting for off-angle bevels and angles), but once you push the piece tight to the wall, the miters are no longer at the correct bevel. What’s the best approach here?
On a basic, small spec. home, should very much cut and fit, recut and fit be expected? And I’m confident in my tape-reading abilities.
BTW…it’s all short, paint-grade base. Sorry it’s so long; if clarification is needed, please shout out. All tips are greatly appreciated.
Thanks.
Replies
Paint-grade base in a basic spec home, I'd let caulk take care of the misfits. The framing generally tends to be not so good, and you'll spend a lot of time and materials trying to get good fits. Get 'em close as you can without taking all day, and let the caulk do the rest.
Your general method of taking all the measurements and cutting everything at once is good. You can let two parallel walls be your straight-cut pieces, then cut your copes a little long, so you can get the ends in, then push the middle in. That might help tighten the joints up a little.
Stain-grade trim in a higher end home, I make my joints fit nice, run my trim straight, and let the guys texturing the walls work their texture to my trim. So yes, that means running the trim before the wall texture.
Bluemoose, I won't pretend to be a great trimmer....I barely qualify as an apprentice, but I can give you some basic carpentry tips that apply to both rough and trim.
Trust your eyes.
If you look at a corner and notice that it's the "drywall and tape holding the top of the square-cut piece out from plum", then you simply have to dupilcate that same degree of "out of plumbness" at the mitre saw. You can mimic the irregularity by simply tilting the piece you are cutting to roughly represent the wall that you are working on, or fitting to.
When you are cutting the base on those pesky concave wall sections, you have two choices: 1) don't nail the base tight, use caulk to fill the gap, or 2) mimic the irregular corner by slightly tipping the base out of it true mitre position.
Essentially I am telling you to "read" the true angle with your eyes, then make the correction on the saw. No one is forcing you to hold the trim pieces tight to the fence...you are doing it that way because in theory, you should. We're not talking in theory here....were dealing in reality and the reality is that the walls are not plumb and straight. You fence IS plumb and straight, so it's easy to understand that if you don't make the minor adjustments on the cut, it simply can't fit without some fudging.
I use this basic technique all day every day out in the roughs. The principles are the same....
blue
Just because you can, doesn't mean you should!
Warning! Be cautious when taking any framing advice from me. There are some in here who think I'm a hackmeister...they might be right! Of course, they might be wrong too!
I'm not sure why I don't trust my eyes enough to mess with the angles some. They're the same eyes that read the tape and cut the line. I'm getting a little better about the guessing. It takes practice to know in what situations a 1/8" gap equals 1.5 degrees.So you've never trimmed too much? I expected that someone with as much framing knowledge/general construction practices knowledge would have at least a decent bit of trim under his belt. At this time in my life I prefer framing or setting forms to trimming, but that's mainly because I'd rather be outside. Plus I hate kneeling all day.
I use a shoe on my jig saw that allows me to cope "everything" with ease.The secret of Zen in two words is, "Not always so"!
When we meet, we say, Namaste'..it means..
I honor the place in you where the entire universe resides,
I honor the place in you of love, of light, of truth, of peace.
I honor the place within you where if you are in that place in you
and I am in that place in me, there is only one of us.
I do have a fair amount of trim under my belt. I said that I would qualify as an apprentice and I still say that.
I spent four years in a formal apprenticeship, working every day in the trade. The day before I graduated, I was still an apprentice.
With that thought in mind, I wouldn't say that I'm a journeyman trimmer until I get my 1000 days of trim in. I'm far from that.....I might have a couple of hundred days of trim....
blueJust because you can, doesn't mean you should!
Warning! Be cautious when taking any framing advice from me. There are some in here who think I'm a hackmeister...they might be right! Of course, they might be wrong too!
Hey Moose,
Here's a good way to go... get yourself a 3' chunk of base, and cope both ends. Set the saw at exactly 90 for the cut. This 3' piece will be your test piece.
When you're measuring for a piece that's going to be coped, hold the test piece up against the already-installed piece and see how the cope fits. Sometimes you will see that a 90 works fine, sometimes you will see that the bottom or top is open a bit. You are probably writing down measurements on a small scrap, so just add a note about the fit... i.e. "102-5/8, cope left hand end, top open 1/16", outside miter right hand end". Then when you get to the saw you know the cope you make will need to be slightly off of 90 to correct that 1/16" gap. I write every measurement down, never walk to the saw without it in writing, because someone will stop me to ask a question and I'll forget the number.
I always cut coped moldings a hair long, anywhere from 1/16" to 1/8" depending on the overall length. A 10' piece of base with a coped end and a square end is going to be cut about 3/32" long, and I'm going to spring it into place. This embeds the square end into the wall a bit, and flattens out the piece receiving the cope a bit. You can't really get a tight fit if you cut to exact length... always be long. This is especially important for the last piece, the one that has two ends coped.
Regarding the way things change as you press them tight to nail... again, cut long, test the fit, and "sneak up" on the right measurement. Part of this is experience, and you need to learn what's going to happen as you fit each joint and get ready to nail. Some moldings are easier than others, and some framers and tapers are better than others. I "sneak up" on a helluva lot of my pieces... and I keep the saw close so this does not take much time.
How long should it take? That's the wrong question, in my opinion. I take as long as I need to do a really nice job. No one would hire me to work on a spec house, but they do hire me to work on their own house. Be a finish carpenter who does really nice work and you can be a finish carpenter who vacations in Hawaii.
Edited 2/8/2005 9:33 pm ET by davidmeiland
I did a little more "sneaking" today than usual in a bay window and on a couple of other 45s that weren't at all 45s and I found myself getting less frustrated. A little more patience paid off.
I encountered the same problem with the bottom of the base tilting in when I replaced the molding in my house. I wouldn't recommend using caulk to fill in the gap. I just cut some shims to put behind the baseboard so that it stays vertical when it's nailed into place. I think shimming is easier and looks better than adjusting the angle of the cope. It's not hard or take much time to do, and the results are better than a lot of caulk.
I had the same problem with mine tilting so in the bottom edge where the drywall does not meet the floor I added some piffen screws and adjust them to tilt the base.
I have compensated for the base tilting in by using a roofing nail at the bottom of the base, much like the screw, but if needed you can adjust the first piece by a small tap to push it in.
Ditto on the caulk. Paint grade spec home work can still look good with a few well placed beads of caulk. Lightweight spackle works well, too, for filling nail holes and small miter irregularities. "Do your best, putty the rest"
Ever consider pre-nailing the inside miters before pushing them to the corner? I try to do it when I can. Obviously you can't use this method all the time. Smaller brads and glue make it a strong joint that won't open when carpet man beats the tar out of it.
Hope it helps!
Hook ADH Carpentry & Woodwork
Quality, Craftsmanship, Detail
No offense, OVERKNIGHT, but replacing the trim in your own home, when you have plenty of time and motivation to do it right, is one thing. Running paint-grade base in a basic spec home is something else. Save your really nice work for the jobs that pay well. When I run paint-grade trim, I don't care quite as much about small gaps. For me, that means really small gaps. I keep a caulk gun handy, and do my own caulking. When I walk out of a room, it looks nice. And the little bit of time it takes to caulk the ocassional "not perfect" fit, is much less than the shimming and screw method some others have mentioned. I know lots of tricks for running nice trim, but don't usually pull them out in a house where the framing has been done by Mexicans working for nothing. One way to quickly go out of business is trying to make a silk purse out of a sow's ear when you're not getting paid for it. I've learned that one the hard way. When I'm doing really nice trim, I like to make up as many of the joints as I can before I put them in place. I've hung three or four pieces of crown, all fitted up, glued and screwed at the work table, and hung in place to be perfect. Then the texture guy textures to my work, as I mentioned in my previous post.
Edited 2/9/2005 12:58 pm ET by moondance
they texture the walls in nice houses? Honestly i thought that was a trick used by production builders to hide poor frame and DW work.
james
<<<they texture the walls in nice houses? Honestly i thought that was a trick used by production builders to hide poor frame and DW work.>>>james, I'd never even seen a textured wall til I moved to California. That's the way they do almost all houses out here. A smooth finish, which is pretty much the standard everywhere else I've been, is something special here, and you pay a lot more for it than a textured wall. Imagine the looks I get when I tell someone I can do a pretty nice smooth finish on DW, but don't know how to do a textured wall. I've actually heard builders telling home owners that smooth finishes are really hard to get right, they cost a lot more, etc. Where I'm from, I think people would actually pay extra for the textured wall, just because it's different.
No offense taken, Moondance. I won't try to compare my time with those that do this for a living, but my workdays are 13 hours. I need to get projects done if I want to stay married, if you get my drift. And believe me, I'm good friends with caulk. I just think that it's far better to shim the baseboard out so it's plum instead of filling a 1/4" (or greater) gap with caulk.I can't relate to having enough ability to be able to back off on the quality some and still have the job look good. I do the best work I can in my house. Usually, I'm satisfied, but it's NEVER perfect. I shudder to think what it would look like if I worked at, say, 85% of my ability.
No problem, OK. A quarter inch of caulk would be a bit much for me, too. I hate compromising quality, and have left some employers because I couldn't stand the poor quality of work they do. Part of being in the trades is knowing when to do your very best work. Some guys just won't pay for it. I wish I could ALWAYS do my very best work, and that's one of the reasons I'm going back into business for myself. Allen in Santa Cruz
Thank you God for Life, Love, and Music
"a house where the framing has been done by Mexicans working for nothing"
Yeah... it's the Mexicans... it's their fault
Two links every trim guy should have. http://www.taunton.com/finehomebuilding/pages/h00036.asp
http://www.garymkatz.com/
Who Dares Wins.
Blue
I think Blueeyed devil has a very good point.
Some of it you have to recognize. I can see if a base is tilting in/out, I cut to compensate.
I don't expect to guess it 100%, that's why a small piece of trim placed behind the tilting base will take care of the prob.
I never caulk a joint, that's the painters job, I get my joints tight enough w/o caulk.
Brownbagg made a good point with the screw behind the molding but if your doing production work that's going to slow you down, got to go get the drill and screw with it.
I don't try to get to many measurements at once, if I cant remember them then I'm getting to many.
I'm left handed so I tend to move left to right and just circle the room. I know that you can do opposite walls and them "spring" the piece in, that's fine but I don't want to go back and recut, the way I do it almost eliminates that, at least for me.
You have to find what works for you, that's the main thing.
Doug
I just completed trimming out a house with MDF base board, I had never used MDF as a base before, done it with door and window trim but not base. What I found was to cope the whole profile and not try to save that little #### at the top. Fits better that way and the painter can caulk and paint the rest.
I guess #### means mammary,I should have said, "the little mammary at the top."
he hasn't been hassling me about my speed ..
I'd worry if he said something about your work.. I'd bet he gives you the HARD stuff!
I do it similar to Hook's method except I use a 6 or 8 nail into the sole plate. This is to compensate for the tapered edge of DW when hung horizontally.
Leave the nail head a little prouder than the surface of the untapered DW. Then put in your square cut trim on top of the nail. When you put your coped piece on top you can tap the square cut piece in to fine tune it.
Does this make sense?
J.
I was finishing up a house today and used the nail trick a few of you had mentioned...it worked well and was much quicker and more "adjustable" than trying to shim the base.Thanks for the tips.
I saw 18 posts and didnt think I was going to be able to add anything. But here goes.
I carry a notebook. I mark room, take my measurements, and write it all down. Thats my cut list. I use marks like this:
I 34 1/4 O (Inside cope, length, outside 45)
l 9 1/2 F (straight, length, mark for fit)
O 97 5/8+ I 22 (outside 45, length, inside cope, other than 45)
I carry two variations of a protractor. One is a cheap little thing that cost about 5 bucks, the other is the Bosch angle finder. I walk the house before I start cutting and measure the corners, yeah, every one. I write on the wall what the angle is. If the BAF is too big to fit, I use the little guy. Then when Im doing the cut list, I can look up and see that I need to write 44 O to indicate a 44 deg cut instead on an outside corner.
Drywall shims - cardboard. You can get a lifetime supply for $30. Cut them into about inch and a half lengths to shim out the bottom of a base that wants to kick in. Check it with a square. You can rip them lengthwise to get smaller incriments (they're about 1/8 thick).
I work towards corners whenever I can. Glue the outside corners together, then nail them up, and work towards the copes, springing them in. Where I have a flat cut - like a door - on one end, and a cope on the other, I tap it with a hammer gently before I mark it (that's one of those mark to fit pieces) to make sure its tight against the other piece, then cut it a RCH long and snap it in.
An inside corner like you describe - like an octagonal bumpout, don't miter. Cut your coped piece on a 22 and back cut it steep, use files to even out the backside so it fits nice and sweet. And dont worry about time. Efficiency comes with practice and nothing else. End result matters a lot more than the ten minutes you tried to save today by cobbling something you knew better about.
"If you pick up a starving dog and make him prosperous, he will not bite you. This is the principal difference between a dog and a man." - Mark Twain