Sad turn of events for a finish carpente
Got called out to a jobsite today to bid a maple cap for a metal handrail. The finish carpenter had started the stair-job but was in over his head on the curved work. The builder/owner kept running down the carpenter for having wasted time & money trying to do the rail. I pointed out the rest of the work was 1st rate, but nothing would deter him from his opinion the this guy. When he told me what the guy had charged, I felt sorry for the carpenter. Had this guy stuck to the finish word he would have been golden. His work was very good & his prices were far, far below market. Now he has worked for very little & doesn’t have a good reference.
Edited 6/26/2008 10:03 pm ET by mathewson
Replies
I've done work at houses following guys who did top rate stuff, it's interesting that for alot of home owners their perception of the work quality is based on; cleaniness of the crew in their house, how easy/difficult it is to reach the contractor, work pace continuity (did they show up consistently or was it a filler job)....essentially all the business and operational dealings drive their perception of work quality itself. They get pissed over the operational details and can't seperate that opinion from the finished product.
-Norm
Right, there are a lot of people who wouldn't know good work if they saw it.
I believe it was Queen who sang it:I want it all and I want it NOW!!.
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"After the laws of Physics, everything else is opinion" -Neil deGrasse Tyson
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If Pasta and Antipasta meet is it the end of the Universe???
it's interesting that for alot of home owners their perception of the work quality is based on; cleaniness of the crew in their house, how easy/difficult it is to reach the contractor, work pace continuity (did they show up consistently or was it a filler job)....essentially all the business and operational dealings drive their perception of work quality itself. They get pissed over the operational details and can't seperate that opinion from the finished product.
I recommended a guy I often work with as a sub to my friends and we worked together on my friends' house. Sometimes the guy puts up plastic to control dust, but in this case he didn't. The homeowner put up plastic sheets and that was the first thing Marc did when he got on the job each morning was rip down their plastic, apparently he felt it was in his way. I tried to clean up as we worked and especially at the end of the day, but sometimes couldn't keep up--and how do you clean up after a guy yanks down plastic sheets and then grabs his Skillsaw and uses it to cut through drywall on an existing wall?--within seconds there is a cloud of dust you can't see through filling the room, and filtering throughout the entire house.
They had me back to put up a fence and do some painting and the wife was pretty clear about that she might hire Marc to cut trees outside or something like that, but he probably won't be setting foot inside their house again, unless for callbacks (and there were a few; one not his fault--teenagers plugged the toilet and it overflowed and they blamed his plumbing work, but some were his fault, but he hasn't gotten back to them). All of this bothered me, since they are my friends and I recommended Marc to them.
So far, they don't seem to have held it against me, and I took great efforts at the time to straighten things out--one time met with them on a Saturday when everything had gone south and it looked like they were going to stop all work because he was doing a plan he had decided upon (in remodeling three bedrooms and two adjoining baths) without consulting them and they hated it. I smoothed things over, suggested an alternative which got the wife thinking of an even better way and they sketched it out and on Monday, Marc showed me the new plan and we started working again. (This was the job, incidentally, where Marc left the compressor on and it fired up at about 3 a.m. from just outside the homeowners' bedroom. Makes an effective alarm clock!)
(This was the job, incidentally, where Marc left the compressor on and it fired up at about 3 a.m. from just outside the homeowners' bedroom. Makes an effective alarm clock!)I take it he forgot to adjust the timer for daylight savings.;-)
Why feel sorry for the guy? He bit off more than he could chew and didn't do enough research to learn what he needed to know to finish the job.
He could also have hired an expert to do that part of the job, then take the opportunity to get some first hand experience and knowledge.
When I began doing renovations there were any number of required skills I didn't have in my bag of tricks. So... I didn't make any money on that part of the work, even lost a few bucks, but I learned what I needed to know from the pros I hired.
This is a very simple strategy. It only requires the willingness to admit ignorance, take the position of apprentice for a few days and learn. Anyone with an active, inquisitive mind and a relatively small ego can gain a great deal under those conditions.
I agree that he should have found someone with the skills needed to complete the project when he realized it was beyond him.
However, he may have felt that bringing in someone else would have further reduced his ability in the eyes of the owner and decided to struggle along. Not the best of decisions, but it's been my experience that many builder/owners can't accept others' limitations without being demeaning about it. Worse, they often think they'll just not pay for your work at all if you're so incompetent (in their opinion).
Hopefully next time he'll realize no one is an expert on everything and put in enough to cover the cost of any additional help he needs.
it's been my experience that many builder/owners can't accept others' limitations without being demeaning about it.
That may be partly because you're a woman, working in a traditional male job. Or it may just be because you seem vulnerable to such A-holes.
I recall that when I was new in the trades and excited about every job that came along, there were certain types who took a superior tone with me or tried to get over on me on the dollar business side. They perceived me as inexperienced and therefore vulnerable, which I was.
My solution was simple. I kept the memories of their total demeanor/attitude/behavior in a special "file", ready to open on those occasions when I met with a new client or contractor.
When I got a whiff of a similar aroma I'd ask one or two questions which I had prepared for such an encounter. The attitude revealed with the answers made it easy for me to decide whether or not to get further involved with that person.
I also learned to be more circumspect in what I said and how much enthusiasm I expressed for their job.
On the other hand, I've never been concerned about bringing in someone with a special skill set to do something that's out of my league.
I tell the HO, a day or two ahead, that a friend of mine with expert qualifications will be joining me to do whatever it is...refinish the old newel post. I might also tell them that I plan to work with him/her, in order to learn more about their specialty. I'm very matter of fact about it, not apologetic in the least.
I may have taken a needle or two along the way, about not knowing something like that, but it's usually easy to turn that kind of remark around and play it off of their obvious ignorance of the same specialty. Skill at job related banter is part of the trades.
Edited 6/27/2008 11:44 am by Hudson Valley Carpenter
Don't keep us in suspense, what are the questoins ? :) other grasshoppers would like to know
Geez Louise, that was almost forty years ago. I've long since become a much better judge of A-holes, all types, so I'm able make a quick exit at the first whiff...without asking anything.
I think it's as much a matter of not wanting the job too much as anything else. As long as I go in with a neutral attitude toward the client and the job, I'm going to be more perceptive about his personality and motives.
Edited 6/27/2008 12:23 pm by Hudson Valley Carpenter
LOL, thanks for replying, that makes sense!
My experiences have been similar, especially the part about seeming too excited about a particular job. I am always excited about new projects, always have lot of ideas, etc., but I have learned to tamp that down until I'm sure I don't get that "whiff" that tells me to go the other direction.
With builders, I've learned that it's just a total mismatch for me. Partly it is because I'm a woman, and I sometimes wonder about their relationships with wives/daughters based on the way they've treated me. Except for the one I've been dealing with for several years, I've found them to be manipulative, and I just got tired of dealing with it.
I have no problem bringing other people with needed skills either. There's always something to learn.
I can't wait to go to the installer's seminar given by one of the lines I work with. I figure the other guys there may think it's strange, but I'd like to see things from their point of view and pick up some tips on better ways to design what I want.
I've found them to be manipulative, and I just got tired of dealing with it.
Welcome to the club. There's been a few threads about manipulative home owners but GC's are often as bad or worse.
I believe it's important to grow through such encounters quickly, seeing them as opportunities to refine one's people skills.
I'm convinced that all of us who must seek work through the usual channels will be subject to occasional attempts at manipulation. So, like any other person's life process, we must learn to be increasingly perceptive while keeping our equilibrium.
I too like the idea of learning from an expert.
As a matter of fact, tomorrow an electrician is coming to finish one of my jobs. He's wiring the panel box which is now hot. I would have done it had I had the time, and have done about 90% of the rest of the wiring. He gave me a price originally and understood perfectly when I said it wouldn't work. He said he would come back and work either with his crew or alone, when I wanted. I haven't seen the final bill yet, but I think he's going to be fair.
He stopped by last week to loan me his stapler when he saw me using metal staples, and he brought me a bag of wire stackers. When I said I would replace them, he said, "Don't worry about it, we buy 'em by the thousand." We spent at least a half hour discussing some of the things that the inspector would be looking for/at. He even hooked me up with his supply house. I appreciate that. When I need an electrician next time, who do you think I'll call?
Like you said, around here (farm country) you need to wear lots of hats and it helps to have a little knowledge of different trades.
Don K.
EJG Homes Renovations - New Construction - Rentals
It's really nice to have that kind of working relationship with another tradesman. I'm going to try to do some barter deals on my next project. I've never done anything like that on a formal basis but it seems to have possibilities.
Edited 6/30/2008 1:38 pm by Hudson Valley Carpenter
I believe it's important to grow through such encounters quickly, seeing them as opportunities to refine one's people skills.
Well said! What I haven't learned as far as refinement I hope I've made up for in the speed of my departure from some situations.
You know, it occurs to me that I have more problems with those who want to manipulate or play one-up than those who have creditable sales objections.
What I haven't learned as far as refinement I hope I've made up for in the speed of my departure from some situations.
LOL. Pardon me, which way to the egress?
You know, it occurs to me that I have more problems with those who want to manipulate or play one-up than those who have creditable sales objections.
I think most people who are friendly by nature have the same experience. That's why I've learned to be more circumspect during initial encounters with potential clients. Keeps my mind on watching out for my own interests and making a good deal for myself as a first priority.
I believe HO and contractors respect tradespeople who put business first. Doesn't mean that I'll get hired, particularly if they're looking for a less experienced person who will do things on their terms. But they will respect and remember me as a professional. And I may get called to do their work when they get tired of trying to work with the lower end subs.
It took me awhile to figure out that my naturally friendly and helpful nature was could lead people to think I was unprofessional. In my years in various areas of design, I've run into lots of really haughty designers, and I try very hard not to come across that way. Probably went too far the other direction.
But I have learned to take 5 minutes before every initial consultation to make sure I have my business face on firmly so things get off on the right foot. I'll even pull out the kitchen diva when needed!
So far I've avoided charging a design fee or retainer as I've gotten pretty good at recognizing shoppers. However, I now let potential customers know exactly what I will do prior to a contract and have no problem quoting a fee or hourly rate if they prefer to take drawings with them. I'm finding that, even if they don't like it, people do realize that time is money for a designer.
" I am always excited about new projects, always have lot of ideas, etc."
I wouldn't tamp it down, it shows you enjoy what you do. Working with builders is not much fun male or female, don't take it personally. If you stay in it long enough you will discover that you know more than they do about your chosen field- act like it.
I recently had a customer question me about every aspect of the job everyday. After about 3 days I asked if there was a problem with the work. No problem he was just a mirco-manger. In a polite way I pointed out that he had hired me to do the job & unless there was a problem I didn't expect to hear from him- job went well from there.
Very good advice! I guess I'm not the only one who dislikes working in some areas. I'm sure there are lots who would cringe at having to work with individuals, too.
I used to try to answer even the most inane questions or comments; now I realize that many from those in the trade are just their silly attempt to make me look unqualfied. I follow your line when I encounter it nowadays. I know more than they do, so I act like it and make sure they do also.
You are probably right ... hind site is 20/20 from our 'objective' point of view. He could have handled it differently, but if his other work is very good at a good price, he doesn't deserve to get beat up over it at all. The owner should quickly realize the point of his limitation, go get another to finish it ... or direct his guy to do the same and not chastise him over one little thing.
The client from hell ... bend over backwards and they will never be satisfied. Nothing is perfect and EVERYTHING is a compromise. The owner needs to get a life if the picture we are getting is close to accurate.
It's a little to easy to sit here and judge the situation from afar.
Life's complicated, and just the different perspectives can make
it indecipherable.
The home owner is entitled be concerned if they perceive that
less then adequate work is being done.
And all of us learn as we go. It may not sound "professional" to
a bunch of cyber experts, but it's true. Maybe he was purposefully taking on a challenge and had bid it low to be fair.
Maybe their are a whole slew of unforeseen (and unmentioned)
problems he's solving along the way. What gets me is when "WE" forget to learn from a post cause we're to busy explaining what we know.
Poorgirl- I couldn't hire the guy to work with me because the owner had fired him, never would have worked.I meet this kind of owner a lot. It is a multi-million dollar house which he is building on spec. He is not really a builder but someone who has a fair bit of money, is smart & thinks "how hard could it be?" and remember this guy is worth millions- most of us aren't. So he hires the cheapest people he can find & then grinds on them because they are the workers. Earlier in my career I would take these jobs at a lower price, then try to do the best job I could while taking heat from the owner all the way. With the passage of time and improvement of my financial situation I no longer NEED the job. So as Hudson Valley said when I show up to bid a job I'm more than neutral about getting the job. The customer already knows it will cost more than the last guy & I never come down in price. As a result I no longer take heat. As to why I felt sorry for him- he did 95% of the job well but didn't charge enough to get outside help & most likely took heat the whole job.
What gets me is when "WE" forget to learn from a post cause we're to busy explaining what we know.
When someone posts his version of a hypothetical case or an anonymous third person's experience it often becomes a good subject for analysis and an opportunity to offer personal experiences that fit the case.
Rather than looking at it as a human drama from the life of someone we know, it's hypothetical nature allows us to work on it like a simple algebra problem.
Edited 6/27/2008 8:13 pm by Hudson Valley Carpenter
It wasn't meant to be taken personally Hudson.
Truth be told relating your experience and solutions doesn't
sound like what I was saying anyhow.
And another clear explanation bites the dust. ;-)
Well I thought I was clear :)
As a matter of fact I can paraphrase from you- Rather than looking at it as a human drama from the life of someone we know, it's hypothetical nature allows us to work on it like a simple algebra problem. On a more interesting (and on topic) note, It seams as tho many
tradesmen would object to being hired so you could learn their techniques.
Seams like a fairly common half joke half grumble" Oh boy, next year
you'll be bidding against me calling yourself a whatever".
I like your approach, just wondering if you've had to deal with
that.
I haven't used that method for many years but when I did, it was with the understanding that I wanted to learn from the tradesperson. As I was paying by the hour or day, there could be no great concern over me interrupting with questions.
It was never my aim to become competitive with anyone who I asked to teach me in that way. I just wanted to learn enough to be able to do a small job for myself, tile my own bathroom for example, or do something small as part of a larger job.
Most of the carpenter/contractors I know in rural NY State have a variety of related skills in their background. When work is scarce, as it often is, it becomes more important to do all aspects of a small remodel or renovation.
Yeah we're neighbors of sorts. I'm in rural NY also.
I think the fact that builders have to do so many different facets
of the trades here, is why I'm somewhat sympathetic towards this guy.
The day's of true apprenticeships are gone, and most people's educations are piecemeal.
So inevitably your put in a position that maybe beyond you. That's good to here that people were amenable to teaching on the
clock. Like I said that strategy has merit. Plus the obvious resource we have here. I wouldn't want to go back to
trying to find books, or just asking the relatively small group
of people I know.
To me a web search would be required effort on any new and unknown
project.
Edited 6/28/2008 1:40 pm ET by Henley
Coupled with the internet, I've found that modern books are a fine resource. Using web sites like Amazon which encourages people to review their purchases, it becomes possible to find good step by step instruction with excellent photos and 3D drawings.
mathewson
As for the 1st finsish carpenter I been there and done that.
It's job creep and you just want to please the HO and you start doing stuff that is over your head.
Sometimes you learn and pull it off and sometimes you crash and burn.
Rich
Just a thought .....since you feel so bad for him and you are such a nice guy you could hire him so he could learn from you on how to do some of the things he doesn't know how to do. but .... I am sure you have already thought of that.
It's a bummer but that's just the reality. Customers can often be quick to nit-pick the little sh*t while totally taking for granted all the good work a trade does. Give them a diamond and they'll look for the flaws. But that's the business, and if said carpentry is going to be in the business, he's got to accept that fact. I and many of us here have been through it - probably most of us. The only thing he's getting out of this one is a good learning experience.
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