I have oak veneeer solid hardwood doors in my house installed about 3 years ago. Every one of them is sagging on the strike side, some to the point of rubbing against the jamb. What usually causes this?
I installed the doors with the hinges and screws that came with the door, replacing 1 screw in the top hinge with a 3″ screw into the studs. To me, it appears the hinges are too weak for the rather heavy doors…. I can pull up on the handle and see the hinge sides compressing together closer, but I’m not sure this is really the problem.
Any suggestions?
Replies
Probably the hinge locations were not sufficiently shimmed. The bottom hinge in particular needs to be shimmed to keep it from kicking in.
And you're better off with at least two long screws.
It may be that the hinges are too light. Solid doors should have at least three stout hinges, and maybe a 4th about 10" below the top hinge. The hinges should take 4-5 screws on each plate.
first make sure the htop hinge screws aren't loose or stripped out. Longer screw, or glued in golf tees will probably fix that.
If you didn't shim the doors, the bottom hinge/jamb section may be moving away from the strike side.
Might try unscrewing bottom hinge from jamb, drilling a hole through the mortise with a bit of a countersink, and running in a large headed flat headed screw (like a Hardie Backer) that's a little proud, to support the hinge from any further caving.
If the is still a big gap between the top hinge leaves, take out the pin, shim the latch side of the door so the hinge leaves are tightly together. Wrap the jaws of an adjustable wrench wuth some tape, fit the wrench to the hinge knuckels on the door and tweak towards the strike side.
This must be done very carefully, or you'll be calling one of the guys who say they make a livving fixing these hack inspired repairs<G>
You said the strike side is dropping, but then talk about the hinge side not offering enough support. Is the strike side dropping or is the door tilting away from the hinges? Surely the reveal was uniform enough to quickly determine this or it's a crude installation.
I'd be very surprised if your hinges aren't strong enough to hold the door. In 20 years weak hinges may cause problems, but not in the short amount of time they've been on your door. Stripped or impropper hinge screws will cause problems.
Long hinge screws sound great, but only if they are used correctly and the jamb under the hinge is well supported.
When you hung the doors was the house new construction? If so did anyone check the framing to see how solid it was and that proper fasteners were used?
Did you mortise the hinges into the doors and jamb? Have the hinges moved in or out on either the door or jamb? If that isn't easy to tell it sounds like a pretty rough installation. How snug have the screws stayed? Are any of the screws stripped? did you use shims? Where? How else is the jamb attached to the framing? How is the trim attached to the jambs? Were the bottoms of the jamb supported with shims? What's the flooring material? What are the jambs made from?
It would be much more help if you described the procedure you used to originally install the doors and/or post close up pictures of the hinges and reveal.
It only takes 2 minutes to sort this out in person, but without being there to see the clues it's very much a guessing game.
Beer was created so carpenters wouldn't rule the world.
First of all, thanks to you and the others for responding.
You said the strike side is dropping, but then talk about the hinge side not offering enough support. Is the strike side dropping or is the door tilting away from the hinges? Surely the reveal was uniform enough to quickly determine this or it's a crude installation
The door is tilting away from the hinges, as I think you can clearly see from this picture.
When you hung the doors was the house new construction? If so did anyone check the framing to see how solid it was and that proper fasteners were used?
No, this was a remodel and the doors simply replaced the existing doors. Not sure what fasteners you are referring to.
Did you mortise the hinges into the doors and jamb?
Prehung doors with mortised hinges.
Have the hinges moved in or out on either the door or jamb?
The door side of the hinge seems to be opening up away from the jamb
View Image
None of the screws are stripped and are tight. The jamb is oak veneer and I assume of the same hardwood material used to make the doors.
Yes, I shimmed both sides in 3 spots (behind the hinges on the hinge side and about the same locations on the strike side. The flooring is also oak hardwood and the jamb rests directly on the floor. The trim is attached to the jambs with 1 1/2 15ga gun nails, and to the framing with 2 1/2" 15ga gun nails.
Edited 2/7/2007 11:46 pm ET by Mugsy
Ok, simple, simple fix.....
Your problem is weight , . Now the weight of the doors over time has done two things....(in my experience)
1. Pulled the jamb slightly toward strike side . - caused usually by the screws of the hinge side not sunk into the framing members ( through the hinges ) . Solution - remove the screws closest to the center of the jamb ( in the hinge ) Replace those with 2 1/2" screws and don't be afraid to " suck it over " till the reveal is evened up . Make sure the other hinge screws protruding through the back of the jamb aren't holding the jamb back from being sucked over...Be careful and slow .. The possible problem being that IF THE JAMB DID'NT SETTLE ...you are going to pinch the door above the top hinge and mess up your casing reveals while they pull off the jambs......
2.Your hinges were cheap and can't handle the weight , so they spread. Easy way to check and fix...Try this , open the door and shim door knob edge with shims on the floor to hold in place. Now remove top and bottom hinges and switch positions. ( put top on bottom and bottom on top ) the theory being that now the spread hinge being on the bottom will force the top over and vise versa , fixing your problem for now. Replace hinges with stronger ones if that proves to be the solution, and don't forget to tighten up the screws to the framing members.....If new hinges are a bit off use wrench on knuckles of hinge and tweek into position. ( make sure pins are in during this tweeking procedure or you could snap off a knuckle...)
I'd go with longer than 2-1/2" screws -- 3-1/2 or 4, probably.
So convenient a thing it is to be a reasonable Creature, since it enables one to find or make a Reason for everything one has a mind to do. --Benjamin Franklin
Good post! Easy to see withthe photos. Those hinges were cheap metal to start with and are already wearing out from the load.
Welcome to the Taunton University of Knowledge FHB Campus at Breaktime. where ... Excellence is its own reward!
Whoa, those are some butt ugly hinges<G>You won't have to worry for long, soon they'll be ground down to nothing. "But to be honest some folks here have been pushing the envelope quite a bit with their unnecessary use if swear words. They just put a character in to replace a letter. But everyone knows what they're saying." Sancho
Don't you mean ugly butt hinges <G>
and are we gonna get banned by saying butt?
That would be podexinine.
So convenient a thing it is to be a reasonable Creature, since it enables one to find or make a Reason for everything one has a mind to do. --Benjamin Franklin
I have had trouble in the last 3-4 yrs. with the same problem the OP has. I have been hanging doors for probably 25yrs. and have never had the problem like this before.
Three exterior prehung doors in my own house have the "sag" after less than 1 yr.. The house was built in the late 70's. All were shimmed tight behind hinges, top hinge leaf on frame loosened and screws placed behind it and then the hinge reset. Frames hand nailed with 16 galv. ring shank casing nails.
It must be cheap hinges.
I took Laumonster's advice and swapped the hinges (top and bottom) and voila. Much more even reveal all the way around. I guess I'm shopping for 24 new hinges. That sucks, cause those hinges may be cheap, but the doors they are attached to were not inexpensive. I did just now e-mail the supplier and I'll see what they have to say, but I'm not expecting much to come of that.
I must say I was quite surprised to see all the grindings? in the photos. I don't see it with the naked eye unless I get very close up.
No surprise that the hinges are made in China, but the doors overall seem very well made.
Thanks for everyone's help!
Great pictures! Exactly what we needed to see.
It's quite impressive how quickly those hinges have worn. Better quality hinges rated for the weight of the door will take care of much of the problem. At the top end are the comerical hinges with bearings built into the hinge.
Judging by the first picture you also have some settling on the hinge side, unless that is an optical illusion from the camera angle. The reveal between jamb and trim on that side is wider than the other as would happen if the jamb sinks but the trim is installed tight and can't drop with it.
Doors can settle even if set directly on the floor if there is any slack between the flooring, asphalt paper, subfloor and framing.
If you have large humidity swings the amount of settling would increase since the drier wood allows the heavily loaded jamb to sink a little, but when moisture levels increase it requires much more force to raise the door than the door itself weighs so there may be 400 lbs of force on the load path, not just the weight of the door.
If the door jamb is lined up between floor joists the problem is even worse since the point load from the door is essentially supported by the subfloor spanned between two joists. While hardwood flooring is stiff, a couple hundred pounds of downward pressure placed directed at the edge of the floor can deflect it over time if not supported well on the underside.
Placing a 4' straight edge in the door opening next to the hinge-side jamb, perpendicular to the wall will show how much the floor/subfloor has dropped, if at all. My guess is it dropped a little. You other doors may or may not have jambs that have sunk, but it's something to look for.
Cheers
Beer was created so carpenters wouldn't rule the world.
Thanks Don
The pictures I took are of the worst one of the doors. It is a pantry closet that has one of those hang on the door wire basket storage racks on it, obviously increasing the weight. I've wanted to ditch the thing forever, but the wife loves it. Perhaps showing her your reply will help me convince her to get rid of it. Yeah, right.
She still thinks Breaktime is just a hangout for "building geeks" (her words). I'm an IT professional in real life, and she knows how I hate the term computer geek, though most of them are, I certainly am not. Not too many of them have done an add a level completely DIY. <G>
Probably thinks there is nothing going on here but porn sharing and telling of jokes! I can honestly say I have learned more of the building profession here than from any other reading source. Only thing more educational is actually doing the work.
Now, of course, I don't go to the tavern anymore!!
The pictures I took are of the worst one of the doors. It is a pantry closet that has one of those hang on the door wire basket storage racks on it, obviously increasing the weight. I've wanted to ditch the thing forever, but the wife loves it. Perhaps showing her your reply will help me convince her to get rid of it. Yeah, right.
I didn't intend to make it sound like the doors are too heavy to be practical. I love big heavy solid core doors and use them whenever possible. I'm also a fan of making things work and hold up over the long term, even if it's not the most practical or sensible. There's some things to look out for, but just about everything is doable and if it breaks it's all fixable.
If your wife likes hanging a stack of cans from the door I'm with her. Since a pantry gets used a lot that would be a good situation to use a set of hinges with actual bearings built in to the design. They're smooth and last a long time.
I owe a lot to the IT field. While in a information systems program, the rate of change and importance of getting good at self learning was thrown at many of us for the first time with a number of learning-how-to-learn activities and some entire classes taught without a specific textbook. "This is ____, learn it well enough to do these projects by this date." Wow, what an eye opener.
It's not much of a reach to see how valuable it can be to use the same skills in carpentry. The lightbulb came on that instead of slowly working up the ranks spending a dozen years to develop into a well versed carpenter barely experienced enough to take on more challenging finish projects, that it would be possible to fast track the process by carefully selecting jobs, side jobs, mentors, tools, and learning resources. Effective networking put me in possition to talk with the right people at the right time, and using best practices, often learned the weekend before, allowed a so-so inexperienced carp to produce some good stuff.
Good luck on the doors.
Beer was created so carpenters wouldn't rule the world.
Party pooper!! I just hate the look of the thing, even if it is on the back of the door. Trust me, it's staying whether you agreed with me or her. Stronger hinges are definitely in the near future here.
Interesting perspective on the IT comments. Not much has changed in the field over the 25 years I've been in it as far as that goes. Still pretty much, "hey, you're the computer guy, why don't you know all of this stuff" Never mind all the different disciplines involved. I rarely write code anymore, but if something custom is needed, I better remember how to do it in some new language pretty quickly.
Being self taught in any field mostly requires discipline, hard work and plenty of determination. It has become much easier to accomplish this in almost any area since the invent of the internet. You think a lot of ideas and help get passed around on this forum? You should see the IT forum sites...whole projects are sometimes shared and then I'm sure passed along as new work product.
I hear all you guys bitch about hack contractors all the time, and rightly so judging by the stories and pictures shared here. It's no different in IT. There are tons of folks practicing their "craft" that have no business doing so. And that is mostly a product of companies not willing to pay for properly qualified people. Sound familiar?
I'll vote with you. I hate all those thngs that wives buy to hang on doors to ruin them.Feel better now?
Welcome to the Taunton University of Knowledge FHB Campus at Breaktime. where ... Excellence is its own reward!
LOL since she was standing over my shoulder when I opened that, YES!!!
Mugsy,
you can see the problem with the hinges in the pics as lau indicated.
I would invest in a good strong set of ball bearing hinges. Worth their
weight in gold.... EMTEK sells a nice hinge for about $17.00/pr. I have sold a lot of doors in the past 25 year, whenever "art" glass is involved or IG glass, I put them on the ph unit and don't even tell the customer. It works. I would not even waste my time with shims or any temporary adjustments or "bandaids". Change the hinges...
Edited 2/8/2007 1:13 pm ET by WINSTALL
solid oak doors are heavy and I have seen some very cheap hinges lately. I would not be surpised if the hinges are starting to wear out already. You could check all the screws for tight and be sure you have two 3" in the top jamb half to connect with studs, but I think you might need some better hinges. If the doors were prehung - the competitive market is dictting that they use the cheapest hinge they can get their hands on.
Welcome to the
Taunton University of Knowledge FHB Campus at Breaktime.
where ...
Excellence is its own reward!
Looking at the pics, I like the gap along the hinge edge. If that gap is consistent all the way down to the bottom--roughly 1/8" inch--and the knuckles of the hinges are reasonably tight, then I think the movement may be coming from the frame itself and not the door within the frame.
Those look like 4" hinges, so they should be the right size for those doors. If the hinge is made from an inferior metal--imported?--they may slowy grind away. I can see some indication of that in the photos, either graphite or grounded metal at the knuckles.
"Roger Staubach for President"
The gap was not consistent all the way down. The top 1/3 that you see in the photos is probably twice as wide as the rest of the door. While they may be the right size, I tend to agree with most everybody else that they are just cheap junk, as I somewhat suspected from the beginning.
glad to help, glad it worked!!!