Daughter’s money pit house has long – about 4 ft – scarf joints right smack dab in the center of two 25 ft long hip or valley rafters. One of them is starting to open up after about 31 yrs.
Question – is it good practice to put a scarf joint in the center of such a load bearing member? I would not!
Question: Is there a way to repair the scarf that is starting to open? Short of replacing it? I can thin k of several ways, but I don’t think there are components commercially available for my solution – they’d have to be custom made – probably at about $50 a pop. There are no load bearing walls even remotely close to the opening scarf, so a brace is out of the question.
Don
Don Reinhard
The Glass Masterworks
“If it scratches, I etch it!”
The Glass Masterworks
“If it scratches, I etch it!”
Replies
somebody screwed up. Should not be a scarf there.
First you have top find a way to jack it up and close the gap.
I don't know if you can fix this with just running preholed metal strap the length of the bottom of the member or not. That has been junkhound's way of adding strength to some members and it does work in new full length to add strength.
How to jack it up with no supporting wall under is a trick
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I can recall posting hips to a strongback on top of the ceiling joists. Not sure if it was the best idea, especially say, in a living room where there were no partitiions below to spread the load.
"When the spirits are low, when the day appears dark, when work becomes monotonous, when hope hardly seems worth having, just mount a bicycle and go out for a spin down the road, without thought on anything but the ride you are taking." — Sherlock Holmes, 1896
best way would be to remove the sheeting (boards) from over the joint, then use pipe/bar clamps to close up the joint. At that point you can sister another to its side, but, is this structural?, or like a ridge board, just keeping things in line and 2) how do you know it wasn't always that way?
"At that point you can sister another to its side"You forget that all the rafters are attached to this member, making it darn hard to sister side to.
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strongbacks attachedBut it would have to be stout enough to jack on. These were just to help the ceiling
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Most likely the only way to halfway fix it would be to scab something alongside it.
It won't be easy, but nothing else is likely to do much of anything.
Is it a hip? or a valley? Is it sagging? Is it in an open attic?
I repaired a hip once that was damaged by a tree limb, by putting a 2x10 underneath the damaged one full length and scabing plywood on both sides to connect them. Easy and wayplentystrong.
that's exaclty what I was thinking. Good to know it worked. What size ply did you use?
Edited 4/15/2009 8:22 am ET by john7g
and the attachment
Your drawing is exactly what I did. IIRC the ply was ½" cdx.
An easy one , would take me longer to do the drawing you just did than make the repair.
No definetly not acceptable to scarf such a member.
How bad is the seperation?
If after 31 yeras, it's only just begining, you may be able to attention it using the plywood scabbing method described previously, although I would probably opt for 3/4" plywood and through-bolt rather than nail.
J. D. Reynolds
Home Improvements
How do i get the attention of all of you? Impossible. thanks, guys, for confirming my suspicions & giving me reasonable solutions.
Don't know how long it's been opening up - gap is about 1/4 inch at bottom (tension) side of rafter. Really don't want to open roof from top - way too messy. Since it is smack dab in the center, it would take a humongous amonunt of jacking to straighten out. Not visibly sagging from outside, but I'dlike it to make it to 50 yrs w/o! Is visibly sagging when seen fron under. Found it two days ago while working on rebuilding all that mess around the chimney that I posted about two months ago. Never saw earlier because it is in shadow until you squat WAAAAY down to look at something else. Then I started looking at other critical frame members & found a second one. At least it isn't scarfed in the center & separating.
A vey serious consideration against using the ceiling joists for a base to jack against is their span. they are all only 2X6's, on 24 inch center & pretty close to max allowable span for their depth. Really don't want to crack a ceiling. Got enough problems w/o that.
My thoughts are to sister a 2X8 along the bottom using a steel plate at each end to join them. The plate at one end (the end that's open) Would be "U" shaped, go under the sister & thick enough take the stress of a big nut between the strap & the sister. I'd run a big bolt through the nut, place a bearing plate between it & the sister & over a few weeks, slowly crank the rafter into straight, then bolt the whole mess off. That's the engneer talking - what do you carpenters think?
Piffin - the ceilings are STRAPPED a la convention in your neck of the woods. Used 1X4 to do it.
DonDon Reinhard
The Glass Masterworks
"If it scratches, I etch it!"
I don't know why but my gut says that the 2 bolts plan isn't as good as the plywood scabs. With the 2 bolts there's nothing preventing buckling of new 2x the and all the stress is concetrated at the 2 bolts that may or may not be a stress riser to later cause a split of the throughbolted member. But that's the overbuilder in me.
Is the hip a 2x8?? I thought it was deeper from your other posts. You need to have the repair piece be as deep as what should be there in the hip or larger, not smaller.
John: This stupid house is, IMHO, a disaster waiting to happen. I was wrong in my original post. The hips & valleys are 2X8; all others are 2X6. It is all Doug Fir, sound & free of knots. It has 24 ft long 2X6 commons. In an area prone to hurricanes & near 100mph winds, I think that is a bit light. BTW, the rafters are on 24 inch centers. Using the advice I rec'd from all you BTers, I've had no surprises & everything has fit together beautifully. Nothing has sagged & when I put in my sistered rafters, they matched up perfectly w/ the top surface of the rim that I built around the chimney. I used Trusslok-Z bolts for the sistering, & used a commodious quantity of construction adhesive. Got photos & will post this weekend when I get home.
I would use the two bolt process just to move the rafter back into line, than scab ply on it. Scabbing ply only keeps it where it is now. I want to return it to nearly what it should have been when built. I would use a 2X8 as the sister to pull it back into line, since that must have been code at the time of construction. I'd also use a fairly long one to pick up load better. The scarf is about 4 ft long.
My #1 Son & I did a similar thing to a money pit house he bought in Urbana, IL. The floor was sagging pretty badly & one doorway really showed it. We went into the crawl, Poured a rather healthy pad, put on a new beam & supported it w/ a pole jack. He went into the crawl every week & cranked about 2 turns into the pole. After about two months, the floor was level, the doorway OK & we cracked no wallboard.
BTW: Today I finally finished the structural rebuild on the chimney job - all except for the 24 ft long rafter I suspected I'd have to replace. Today I finally looked at it w/ an eye toward what I thought I'd really have to do. Now that I can get close enough to it to see, looks like I'll have to replace a minimum of the top 6 feet of it. Judgement has to be reserved till I rip off some roof & the first course of sheathing to see how bad the rot is. The first course of sheathing I can see is rotted to the point that the nails can be pulled by hand.
Asthe fun continues, on Mon, I discovered why we always had such sucky A/C in that section of the house. The A/C unit is about 2 ft from the chimney & the stack came out w/ the first section of sheathing. The "Leather joint" between the cooling section of the unit & the plenum had come open, allowing us to heat/cool the entire attic. Today while looking at it closely to see how bad the situation really is, I found out that whoever installed the A/C unit made the connection between the two w/ aluminum tape & duct tape! The plenum was leaning to one side badly. So, now I get to repair the A/C unit. Looks like I'll have to remove the distribution ductwork, remove the plenum & rebuild the joint correctly. There's an HVAC contractor in the next town who will fabricate the parts & sell them to me. He made a humongous air return for me 17 months ago that works like Gangbusters.
I know how it happened. The A/C unit is in an inaccessable section of the attic. It was darker than the inside of a whale's belly & they could not really get to the mess to work on it. I'll have the advantage of the roof being open, we have installed lights & I've cleaned up the clutter around the location & will install walk boards so you can get to it & work on it.
This house is truly the inspiration for "The Money Pit." All this started w/ my daughter wanting to install some additional lighting in the great room. That started nearly 2 yrs ago & hasn't been done yet. We get some major project started & about half way through, some disaster strikes & we get our priorities changed & a new project started. We currently have one bath torn up & completely unusable; another half bath w/ a wal torn out but usable & the roof torn apart. I can't die, i have too many projects to complete!
DonDon Reinhard
The Glass Masterworks
"If it scratches, I etch it!"
Daughters are fun though.
Welcome to the Taunton University of Knowledge FHB Campus at Breaktime. where ... Excellence is its own reward!
> would use the two bolt process just to move the rafter back into line, than scab ply on it.<
Ahso! I think you could still do the same without the bolts and steel. Attach the lower end of the new 2x hip with the ply scabs tight to the lower section of the scarfed hip then jack the upper end to make things straight or as straight as they can be.
Another opinion not in favor of the 2 bolt then jack plan is that depending on the resistance you encounter at the time you jack after bolting, you may end up with a sag in the middle of the new 2x that would not make it tight to the old as well as maybe not straightening the originail hip. But you said the sag wasn't visible form the oustise so maybe not that big a deal.
>This house is truly the inspiration for "The Money Pit."<Sounds like it was built without any code enforcement at the time.
can you put temporary bracing in the room below... carpet on top of a top plate and temp studs to support the ceiling then a walking board on top of the ceiling joists and jack ..,then build a hip truss in place with a support under the scarf I have done that when removing a load bearing wall then put a beam in the attic with long joist hangers to support the ceiling joists and ended up with a flat ceiling for the joined rooms
Don, I think the previous post adressed to me is for you. it's a vaild idea BTW.
Sounds like it might just work! Why didn't the rest of us geniuses think of it?
This is a problem I'll be facing sometime in the next six months after I get the rest of the roof fixed, So I'll keep all these ideas in mind.
BTW: I'm taking a break from my labors for at least a month. Have a business trip next week; a 50th college class reunion first week in May, work to do for my own business, etching glass & hand surgery to repair a badly arthritic thumb. Thumb gets me 6 weeks in a cast while it heals. Soon's I get into a hard cast, I'll be back on the roof, but w/ a two handed helper. I've heard of one armed paperhangers, now we'll find out how it goes for a one-armed roofer!
DonDon Reinhard
The Glass Masterworks
"If it scratches, I etch it!"
>Why didn't the rest of us geniuses think of it?<
Because it's a little more labor intensive and greater risk. The risk being damage to the finsihed ceiling inside as well as a tool blet holstered hammer dinging the furniture that suddenly gains value when the client discovers the damage after you point it out to them.
But the real question now is: does the hip need to be straightened or just strengthed/stabilized? IIRC you said it wasn't noticable outside so if it was me I wouldn't put too much effort into straightening it and focus on the reinforcement of it to alleviate future concerns. Yes, you know it's not striaght but will anyone else know at this point? Strength of the repair is your priority and the rest might be considered superficial.
Run a double header on end say 2 x 8 or 10 get them as long as you can fit in the attic right under affected area use a small jack I think with the weight spread out on many joists you should have enough strengh out of it to lift that little area , if you hear some cracking run. LOL