The current kitchen I have going on is for a HO that used to own a cabinet shop in Ohio.
I nailed a few pieces up with an 18 gauge nailer and she freaked out. I used 23 gauge pins on the miters, this is standard procedure for me.
She says “In 27 years of being in the cabinet business I have never seen anyone face nail crown before.”
I asked her how she has seen it done and she says that it needs to be screwed from the back.
This is a new one on me. I took the pieces back down and now thinking about the best way to screw it up. I have access to the tops of the cabinets with the cathedral ceiling.
I thought I’d preassemble the joints on the floor like I always do, then use 6″ c-clamps to hold the crown in place while I predrill and use 1″ or 1-1/4″ truss head/GRK screws.
Anyone tried this? I’m not so sure about doing it.
Woods favorite carpenter
Replies
maybe she's never seen anyone put up crown mould.., ever.
Did she say why screws were necessary? Is she going to be hanging stuff from the crown?
She said screws were the only way she'd accept it. I asked her how her installers did it when the uppers were up against a bulkhead or soffitt.
Crazy in my mind, maybe it's not.
I'd like to give her what she wants, but this is far fetched. Woods favorite carpenter
They would need to be screwed to cabs before putting them up.
What she is looking for is real high end more expensive work, should have specified no visible fasteners. Some jobs can take 30% more labour to do it that way.
Definitely ridicuous for crown. she must have X-ray eyes to see that high up pin holes filled with wax.I bet if you'd finished the hjob instead of her seeing you do it, she'd never noticed.
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in 27 years building cabinets and installing mouldings I have never seen it done with screws . if she has 27 years experience ask her to demonstrate this for you. did she own and run a cabinet business or did her husband have a cabinet business.but seriously if you can get to the back of the mouldings thru the cabs I guess you could do it but obviously you cant put it up on the walls without going up into the attic
She owned it jointly with her husband.
Now I don't feel quite so stupid. I hadn't heard of it before. Thought I was missing out on something.
I emailed Calvin about it, he is from Ohio and thought maybe he ran into this before. He said she was off her rocker too. Woods favorite carpenter
There was an article in FHB a year or three ago about installing cabinets by yourself. The author advocated joining the cabinets together, raising them into place, holding the crown up, marking its location on the cabs, taking them back down, screwing the crown in place from the backside, raising the whole shebang back up and screwing it to the wall.Yeah....As you can imagine, there are myriad potential problems with this approach. Seems like a lot of unnecessary messing around to me.Maybe she read the same article.
If she has 27 years dealing with installers why are you doing the install?
Egg-Zakly!!!
If it were me, I'd probably give her what she wants, although I'd probably still tack it in place initially with 23 GA, but she would still have to listen to my opinion.
I've found before that owners and higher-ups in a lot of medium to large sized subcontractors don't actually know exactly how the work is done...
Not sure why, maybe she lost her tools in the divorce. Woods favorite carpenter
Maybe she got divorced because of making impossible demands
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I've done it a few times in 20 years when no visible fastening was acceptable.
Cut filler backing for the crown to turn it into a molding with a flat, vertical back. You can fasten this to the crown any way you like, just be careful not to come thru the finished face. (don't ask...)
Install a strip of 3/4" square stock to the top of the cabinet, almost flush with the face, (in a 1/4 of a hair).
Pre drill some holes in it to make the crown install go more better.
Prepare the crown however, by the piece or as a unit. Backscrew to install.
I've never done cabinet crown with a pin nailer that wasn't invisible, so I don't see the benefit. But some people want what they want...buic
PS I charge for the extra material and double my usual labor for "backscrewed" crown.
Your customer is insane.
I hot melt crown at the miters, no pins.
Pin the crown. Tell her that's the way it is or drag up.
Kowboy
glue and nail with a 16 or 18 ga....
careful of yur nail lengths...never screwed it in....
no access from the back.. face nail with a 23 and glue....
long runs and trurns get blocks...
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Matt,
That is a very odd request IMO.
I no longer us an 18 ga. on most cabinet crown though...just 23ga. and PowerGrab adhesive between the crown and cabinets or backing.
What your customer wants could be done with 2P10 or PowerGrab or Molding Glue and Collins clamps to attach the crown to backing (with a few 23 ga. pins too) and then screw or pin the backing to the cabinets.
I like to pin the crown to the cabinets with an 18 gauge gun. It holds better.
When possible I back glue the crown with hot melt after it's tacked into place.
I don't think this would have been much of an issue if I would have filled the couple of nail holes before I left that night. She seen them after I left.
Woods favorite carpenter
I angle the 23ga. pins back and forth and with the adhesive it is really solid, but your method is good too.Sounds like a job to do your best on and move on. Hope it all ends well.B
It is one of those jobs, their finicky traits are dragging this job way out.
I have never had a complaint before with my trim work. My joints all look great, and they are going to remain that way for years to come.
Thanks for throwing your 2 cents in. Woods favorite carpenter
Matt,Your work impresses me. I know few who can do framing and trim well and effeciently. You seem to be good at both.I posted a few pics of some of my work this week...didn't take pics of the cheesy old basement bathroom I worked on though. Carry on,Brian
>>Your work impresses me.<<
Fellings mutual here.
I put up some more pictures of the kitchen in the photo gallery.
Woods favorite carpenter
Matt
I've installed crown on cabinets with screws on a few occasions, (don't care for it either) those being when the cabs didn't go to the ceiling so that I could reach around the backside. Pre make the crown and hold it up to the cabs and screw it from behind. I think I can make my nail holes undetectable so I don't ever give the idea a second thought anymore. I think I got the idea to use screws from a cabinet shop!!!
I think I recall Buck saying that he has done it this way? Might be wrong but someone on here has mentioned it.
I've hung several hundred sets of cabinets, some in some pretty high end places and maybe two sets of cabs in all these years have had the crown screwed on. It is not the industry standard regardless of what this women is telling you. Not saying that someone doesn't do it regularly but that doesn't make them right and the rest of us wrong either.
I think this women has seen one or two examples of how screwing crown on works and now she thinks it will work everywhere, but you gotta give em what they want.
Doug
It's not that I don't want to do it, I just don't see the advantage over it.
After the holes are filled you really have to be looking to see them.
I'm going to play with the idea on some scrap after I finish hanging all the boxes. Woods favorite carpenter
It's not that I don't want to do it, I just don't see the advantage over it.
I couldn't agree more. That's why after doing it on a few sets of cabinets I ditched the idea, no advantage and it takes more time.
Those pics that Hammer1 shows in his post to you have some good examples of how you can do it - mostly with build ups.
I guess you gotta give her what she wants and in the future make sure you fill the holes as you go! :)
Doug
I agree hammers pictures were good, I forgot to mention that in my post to him.
Glad you chimed in, thanks. Woods favorite carpenter
"I think this women has seen one or two examples of how screwing crown on works and now she thinks it will work ..."That was my line of thoiught. I have had otehr ustomers who have some sort of outlandish idea based on what they 'think' that they know with partial information. Somebody she respects once did it this way for some project....
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the double secret backscrew ...
thot I had a pic but I must have deleted it.
when I can reach over ... I try to do it was much as possible.
use real official drywall screws ... they "bite" better.
"over drill" the access hole thru the front of the face frame.
measure and cut as per the norm ...
then hold that stick of crown in place ... and drive the screw in from the back.
having the hole bigger than the screw ... makes for a little wiggle room to align.
outside corners still have to be pinned or glued and clamped.
inside corners can be glues and set wet ... then hold ...
and drill a smaller hole across and thru both pieces ... and clamp tight by running a screw thru. One screw will do it there.
once U get used to it ... it's not nearly as slow as it sounds.
worked for a guy that musta been related to that lady ...
he hated seeing fasteners.
so ... we made a game out of it ...
on kitchens where we could reach up and over ... top screw went thru the top rail too. He liked to have the bottoms skinned and puck lights recessed ... so just screw thru the bottom ... and the "under-skin" would hide that.
to this day ... exposed fasteners drive me nuts ... even one's that can't be helped.
I use wax fill sticks in the different furniture finishes to fill the nail holes I've left behind.
that lady ain't nuts ... sometimes it can be done ... and looks great when it is.
Jeff
Buck Construction
Artistry In Carpentry
Pittsburgh Pa
btw ... U can backscrew when the tops are trapped too.
just have to make an "L" outta plywood ... backscrew the crown to that ...
and attach that to the face ... and screw up thru the top of the cab ... way up front ...
close to the face frame ... where no one can ever really see.
can't recall why ... but I have gone thru all that time and trouble more than one time.
we've also screw cab's thru the back ... then skinned the whole back and used contact cement.
I still think the nicest detail is skinning the bottoms ...
man does that look clean.
Jeff
Jeff Buck Construction
Artistry In Carpentry
Pittsburgh Pa
I still think the nicest detail is skinning the bottoms ...
man does that look clean.
I agree. The cabinet shop I worked for in Austin did that on every set of cabs they installed and it does add one more element of custom to the job.
A place here skins the bottoms with the lighting recessed into that skin. Sort of a pain to do but again, looks great.
Doug
First I would cover my but by having her sign a waiver ect on that portion of the job.
2nd did you build the cabs?
How thick is the box material 1/2" or thicker. I would, since she wants it that way, use a kreg jig and hot melt the crown to temp hold it and pocket hole the crown up.
I would use this PH tool
http://www.kregtool.com/products/pht/product.php?PRODUCT_ID=30
and this clamp
http://www.kregtool.com/products/pht/product.php?PRODUCT_ID=72
but I would CYA on this one
Maybe she said she knew how to screw up crown. It would be difficult to use screws from behind once the cabinets are in place, not to mention keeping the corners tight. Half the time there isn't enough frame above the doors to mount crown or get a good, safe bite.
I have been gluing up crown and only using an occasional 23 ga. pin here and there. I'm using a construction adhesive but it only works if you put up a backing. If you get the bevels correct, it makes fitting the miters a breeze. On many kitchens, I need a backer anyway. You can't attach a crown with only a 1/4" of meat. The backer makes for a very solid install and a minor dab of color putty if a pin or two is needed. This might appease the lady.
There are some crowns that have a rabbet that fits on top of the face frame. These can be screwed from behind, actually, down since there is a ledge made to fit and stock to attach through. Some have another ledge for a frame or corner block. I don't see this style very often.
I don't need any backing I have at least 3/4" to attach the crown to.
Maybe some blocks would make it easier to screw in place.
Woods favorite carpenter
Where did you get that large spring type clamp?Thanks, John
John, that's about all those clamps are good for. Even then, the suction cup may leave a mark. You also have to be able to get the pliers in position. Without the cups, the sharp ends will put holes in your work, OK for paint jobs and unseen parts. The work pieces can slip on miters. They can be handy in a few situations, like when I run out of better clamps. There are times when nothing else will reach but I seldom use them the way they are advertised. http://www.coastaltool.com/cgi-bin/welcome.pl?ref=froogle+page=/clamps_vises/maestro/m1201_clamp-all.htmBeat it to fit / Paint it to match
hammer1, Thanks for posting the good pictures. Your backer method looks really solid. As they say, a picture is worth a thousand words' I have seen the spring clamps like yours, but they didnt have the protector on them, so more info please. I agree that screwing up the crown molding is ridiculous. A little color putty will hide the nail holes if you use the right color.Edit; just saw your post on the spring clamps, Thanks.
Edited 1/12/2008 12:40 pm ET by wood4rd
She is coming from a furniture/cabinet POV.
I assume you mean to say just crown on the cabs themselves, not all around the room. You didn't say - but it would clearly be impossible to srew from the back for a wall to ceiling position.
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Taunton University of Knowledge FHB Campus at Breaktime.
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Yes it's just crown on cabinets. No possible way to do it on the ceiling.
Unless I used 10" GRK's through the roof shingles. LOL
Woods favorite carpenter
(29 of 29)
99368.29 in reply to 99368.25
This is all well and good to try and appease the customer this way, however, I just installed a high end kitchen with 31/2" crown that the designer wanted to hug the ceiling. There was a soffit facia board that went up before the crown, so there was no access to the back of the crown at all. Ok. The ceiling had more curves, bows and waves in it than Pamela Anderson, and in one portion over a 72" span, it was out of level by a whole inch. The difference in all the reveals had to made up in the facia of which there was a sizable field (thank God). I had to bend, cajole, plead, cut odd angles every which way, shave with my block plane and do some crafty sneaky stuff to make it all look like it was supposed to. I did it with 18g and 23g pins, pl glue, block backing and hot melt.
In the end, everyone was happy and ooooed and ahhhhhd and I did my little "aw shucks" routine that I've perfected.
To be sure this is not a unique situation faced by all of us who do trim and cab installs.
So.....screw up the crown molding? Well yeah, I would say so but not in the way this particular customer would want it screwed up. There's no way I could have screwed in this crown.
There's a time when you should give the customer what they want, but there is also a point when the customer needs to butt out, not micro manage and allow the work to get done. In the case presented here, it's a little bit of both and I think the right choice was made.
The next time I do it I'll probably pin it in place with the 23 gauge then hot melt the back of it to the cabinets. Filling the holes as I go.
They live on a lake and I explained that to her, I was worried about the excess humidity.
It's 3-1/2" crown so movement is possible if not fastened correctly.
Woods favorite carpenter
Here is another few thoughts:
Is this your job (you contracted with the HO) or are you subing for a builder on this one? If the latter, it's actually not your job to deal with the lady, in which case I'd work it through the builder, even if you intend to do what she wants.
Further if these are high end cabinets I don't think that this is necessarily an unreasonable request, if only a bit odd assuming you are getting paid well. If these are mid-priced or less production type cabinets and you are getting paid a standard $400 or whatever, I'd think extra compensation would be in order - lets face it, you have already put up and taken back down at least part of it... everyone has to put food on the table...
This is a sub job, another one with a hands off builder.
He gets the job and I see him once every two weeks to collect a check. Other than that he's no where to be found.
I have to deal with the HO's because of that. If I called him he would say "do whatever makes them happy." So I just do it and bill him.
THese are a mid range cabinet, nothing you can't get out of HD or Blowes.
Woods favorite carpenter
>> THese are a mid range cabinet, nothing you can't get out of HD or Blowes. << I'd say what they are asking for is definitely an extra. It's so typical. If I'm building $170k homes, invariable there are people coming in asking about custom tile bathrooms and granite counter tops... DUHHH!!!!!
My thoughts exactly Matt.
The kitchen is already much nicer than anyone expected, she's just reaching now. Woods favorite carpenter
I just had a meeting with a presale customer today. The guy was OK, but the lady, although I wouldn't necessarily say was dishonest tried to get me to give them:
Tile backsplash in kitchena medium sized room of hardwood floorGlass shower doorsThat's around two grand or more. I did give them some can lights and prewires for several fans, cabinet knobs, plus some other things that I can't even think of right now, so it wasn't like I was being stingey. I think they were just testing me. None the less, they seemed like nice people.
The proposal to build had a 3 page bulleted list of one liners of what the house comes with, so it's not like the deal wasn't pretty clearly laid out.
Gotta love those types of customers. They'll talk you into bankruptcy if you let them. LOL
Dot your I's and cross your T's so they can clearly see what they are getting and see how they react.
Woods favorite carpenter
That's why I'll only work T&M unless it's a deck or roof or some other square foot no brainer (the pricing, not the job).
Under T&M, they can add, subtract, change, revamp, etc. THEMSELVES, not me, into the po' house.
David--through losing my azz.The best reward for a job well done is the opportunity to do another.
This job is cost plus to the builder. He is under a fixed price to the HO with change orders being extra.
I give him a price, if ANYTHING changes in the specs then I bill for it.
This works well for me in alot of circumstances.
Speaking of screwing, hows that screwgun treating you? Got a chance to use it yet? Woods favorite carpenter
I took it out of the bag and looked at it.
Twice maybe.
I've got some 3/4 underlayment that's only tacked right now, some Hardi-backer coming up, and my deck season is 45 days from exploding.
She'll earn her keep here this year.The best reward for a job well done is the opportunity to do another.
It serviced me well, should do the same for you. I can't believe I went so long without one. My back has thanked me everyday for buying it.
Woods favorite carpenter
And mine thanks you for passing it on.
Have a good weekend--gonna go watch the 2nd half of the Pats-Jags.
Later.The best reward for a job well done is the opportunity to do another.
can't believe that I am the only one who caught this...
27 years in the cabinet buisness...
well if she retired last year that puts her start date somewhere in 1980.... can't imagen folks screwing crown to the tops of cabs in 1980, heck I don't think crown was even common on cabs untill the 90's. She must have been in some sort of High End company...
which leads me to the lower mid-range cabinets that could be had from blows or homer desparado, what is someone with 27 years in the cabinet buisness doing buying mid range crappy cabs?
Me thinks she is full of Shi.... well you get the point... sure would be fun to ask her why she is installing mid/low end cabs and the crown screwing going on in the 80's
james
Theres a few holes in her story thats for sure.
She bought cheap, trying to save money. Which is costing her more in the long run.
Cabinet faces sent to us with no carcase or bottoms, had to field make those. one of many things that are part of this bad design.
Woods favorite carpenter
maybe she was saying that all the cown mould she's ever seen was screwed up? (as in an explantion of the qual of install)
or she's never seen anyone screw up crown mould the way you were screwing it up? <G>
Interesting how cheap always costs more.
She has tried to save money on certain things and it has cost her more.
This will be another if I decide to do it that way. Woods favorite carpenter
Had to think about that. My first nice kitchen job was about 1980 and it did have crown to apply.
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