Hi Everyone,
I will be building a drop ceiling in an 8′ x 8′ room out of 2×4 @ 16″ o.c.. The existing plaster ceiling is at 9′ 4″ it is wood lath and plaster and it’s cracking. Plus I’m planning to add a small ceiling fan in the center so this will ensure I’ve got something solid to attach to (existing ceiling is also a drop ceiling w/ a plenum above and no place to support fan)
I am going to run a 2″ x 4″ ledger around the perimeter of teh room glued to teh wall and screwed in everywhere it passes a stud. Then I was ging to toenail (screw) teh 2×4 joists to that with like 2 screw from each side
I would like to frame the ceilng using screws as I don’t have a nail gun and i don’t want to bang the neighbor in the apartment next door into oblivion. Another thread brought to like the fact that dryall screws are bad in shear and was wondering if people could reccomend what type of fasteners to use.
Will toenailing the new 2×4 joists to the ledger be ok?
Is this overkill / inadequate?
Anyone have a problem with me leaving the old ceiling in place and building new under it?
Ceiling will be 3/8″ drywall screwed and glued to joists?
Thanks for the help
Replies
I once saw a case of multiple ceilings similar to this where the ceiling above collapsed and brought everything down. It was only luck that the dozen people in the room weren't injured.
So get some "plaster screws" (screws with a large washer) and secure any loose or otherwise questionable plaster. And make sure that whatever is above this plaster ceiling is sound and not apt to work loose. If necessary knock holes in the old ceiling and add heavy wire ties up to something substantial above. The holes can be covered with pieces of drywall screwed/glued to the surface, if necessary for plenum reasons.
It may be wise to use a lag bolt (or just a beefier wood screw than your typical DW screw) for every 2nd or 3rd stud behind the ledger. Also, in general deck screws are stronger than their DW equivalents, though it's impossible to say anything certain about a given brand of screw without reliable specs from the manufacturer.
If joists don't rest on top of the ledger then you should use hangers, otherwise simply toenailing is fine.
Where you're planning to put a fan, install some sort of blocking between/above adjacent joists on both sides to control vibration and spread the load across joists.
2x4 joists supporting a DW ceiling across an 8-foot span sounds a little weak.
Don't use 3/8" DW on a ceiling. It'll sag big time.
Finally, if the area above is legally a plenum then it's probably not legal to use wood framing.
happy?
Dan - please tell me about this - what constitutes a plenum?
Finally, if the area above is legally a plenum then it's probably not legal to use wood framing.
Forrest
In general, if any ventillating equipment draws air from the area or pumps air into the area (on its way to or from heating/cooling/ventillating an occupied space) then the area is a plenum. In standard commercial construction any plenum area must be completely fireproof and cannot contain any materials (plastics, mainly) that give off poisonous gas when heated. The rules for home construction aren't usually so strict (varies by locality), but they can't be ignored.
If ignorance is bliss why aren't more people
happy?
Okay - thanks - I was curious about the reasons, because my old house has three 2nd floor rooms added across the back in 1916, where there are separate 1st floor ceiling joists and 2nd floor floor joists - they do nest somewhat, No HVAC function, tho'
Forrest
I think I used the term plenum incorrectly. Thanks for clearing it up for those I may have confused."I'm your huckleberry"
Edited 1/26/2006 5:31 pm ET by xosder11
Agree with Dan ... 2x4 is a little weak. Better to use 2x6 especially the one across the middle that holds the fan. Use deck screws, and Simpson hangers would help. Unless there's a reason to leave it intact, I would recommend t5aking out the old plaster ceiling. You could leave the framing, but demo the plaster.
"When asked if you can do something, tell'em "Why certainly I can", then get busy and find a way to do it." T. Roosevelt
View Image
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It's only satisfying if you eat it.
can you use screws with those. I'm reluctant to do any banging cause plaster will start to fall off the neighbors walls or at least crack.
I never have, but I'm pretty sure that Simpson sells screws for use with their hangers.
http://www.simpsonstrongtie.com--------------------------
It's only satisfying if you eat it.
Why not mount new 2x6 joists (to the rim joist) against the old plaster?
It would be a bit higher than 8", but you accomplish holding up the old AND the new with the same step.Troy Sprout
Square, Level & Plumb Renovations
THAT's why i like this forum. Nice
Since you have neighbors to contend with. Why don't you just rent a gas/battery operated nailgun if you feel confortable with one. You will be done in more then half the time as it would take you to screw everything and a lot less noice. A gas nail gun makes noice but so does a screw gun. Just a thought.Joe Carola
Not a bad plan. Would also force my #### to hustle since the tool would be on borrowed time. Renting tools for me is a slippery slope though. I somehow always start with intentions of renting, then somehow rationalize just buying the item, like the wet saw I bought recently.
I know what you mean. When I go to the place where I buy my tools from I act like a kid in Toys R Us. I go there for one thing and then I wind up watching all the tools the guys before me are buying or picking up tools that they had fixed and then I wind up walking up and down the isles looking for something (don't no what) to buy.One suggestion that I have no matter what way you go with wether you screw or nails is when you get you ledger/nailer around the perimeter up you can nail a 2z4 on the bottom where your ceiling joists will go temporarily which will stick out 2" and then when your ready for your joists just put them in on edge and let them sit on top of the temp 2x4. This way you don't have to struggle while you fasten it.If you use joist hangers you can nail them on first flush to the bottom on both sides and then drop the ceiling joists in. Joe Carola
One suggestion that I have no matter what way you go with wether you screw or nails is when you get you ledger/nailer around the perimeter up you can nail a 2z4 on the bottom where your ceiling joists will go temporarily which will stick out 2" and then when your ready for your joists just put them in on edge and let them sit on top of the temp 2x4. This way you don't have to struggle while you fasten it.
And if you've screwed the 2x4 ledge...zip..zip and it comes right off. I like it. I'm gonna have to steal that idea.
jt8
"Obstacles are those frightful things you see when you take your eyes off your goals." -- Sydney Smith
missed that part about the 2 inch drop - from your description, sounds like you probably will have to do some framing - I'm sort of a more-work guy so I would probably pull the existing ceiling and start with the open framing - get rid of all the mickeymouse work and start over rather than try to fit a repair to what ever is messed up - just the way I like to do things - and with that small an area, really shouldn't be that much work -part of your problem will be getting the old plaster from the top floor to the dumpster - I'd use 5 gal mud buckets, fill as many as you have, then make trips to the dumpster - work smarter, not harder
good luck
other quick question - your place or rental?
My family owns the building. I like there year one rent free and fix up the apartment. That was the deal. I went to school for architecture but I never took "how to fix a crooked delapitated old building on a dime-101, hence my many stupid questions."I'm your huckleberry"
Edited 1/26/2006 5:33 pm ET by xosder11
You'll learn a lot about the difference between theory and practice with this puppy!From your description of the existing ceiling, it's apt to be a bit unstable and may decide to vacate it's location suddenly. At the very least knock a few holes in it and peek in to make sure it's secured. Wire it up to the beams above in several places if at all doubtful. A single 2x4 isn't much of a "strongback" when holding up plaster/lath.I'm still of the opinion that steel studs would be your best bet here. The thin ones are about as thick as a tin can and would be too flimsy (unless supported by ties to the structure above), but there is a heavy-duty type that's maybe three times as thick, or, to be extra-careful, you can go to the 2x6 heavy-duty steel studs. (If you go with wood I'd definitely recommend 2x6 or better.)A big advantage of the steel is that channel you run around along the walls perpendictular to the joists. Install that, then just slide the joists in place and screw them in. You do need a way to cut the steel. Snips can be used for the lightweight stuff, but you want some sort of a cutoff wheel for the heavy stuff, or else you'll wear out your hacksaw arm. A cutoff wheel in an angle grinder will work, or a metal blade in a Skillsaw or chop saw.A minor disadvantage of the steel, especially the heavy duty stuff, is that it's hard to get a screw into it. Once you get the hang of it you can drive the steel-tapping DW screws into it fairly easily, but you'll probably want to pre-drill pilot holes for starters. Rent a DW lift or make some T-bars so that you're not needing three hands as you initially tack the rock into place.Consider using 5/8" rock, to eliminate any danger of sag. Definitely don't use 3/8".Oh, and never assume that anything is level or plumb or square. Buy/rent a spinning laser level to mark the ceiling position.
If ignorance is bliss why aren't more people
happy?
"Oh, and never assume that anything is level or plumb or square. Buy/rent a spinning laser level to mark the ceiling position"Oh, I've already learned that one the hard way. But why spend money on a laser, when I can just put a marble on the floors and watch which direction it rolls. The faster it rolls, teh steeper the slope. ; )BTW, what is SAG, meaning, how does it usually manifest itself and how long does it take. Just curiosity, as I've never witnessed it first hand."I'm your huckleberry"Edited 1/26/2006 2:57 pm ET by xosder11
Edited 1/26/2006 5:34 pm ET by xosder11
just wanted to post this. Taken from the canadian dimention lumber data book, published by the canadian wood council.Ceiling Joists (spruce, pine, fir)
drywall finish, no future sleeping rooms and no attic storage:2x4spacing Grade
sel. str. no.1 / no. 212" 12'-12" 11'-10"16" 11'-0" 10'-9"I will still go with 2x6 cause whats the difference anyway, but just so you all can see this is how I made my original determination to go 2x4."I'm your huckleberry"
Edited 1/26/2006 5:35 pm ET by xosder11
"I'll be your huckleberry"
I thought it was, "I'm your huckleberry" ? :)
jt8
"Obstacles are those frightful things you see when you take your eyes off your goals." -- Sydney Smith
Oh ####. You may be right. I love that line though.Looking into it now. Maybe its gonna be a Tombstone viewing night"I'm your huckleberry"
Edited 1/26/2006 5:28 pm ET by xosder11
Of all the different movies that have come out about that story, I think Val did the best Doc. Years ago we were talking about it and decided we wanted to dub the different movies and extract certain characters and merge them into a new film. Val was the overall choice for Doc... but the most popular Wyatt was one of the older movies (can't remember who).
[edit] The line you quoted and the scene in the saloon where he mocks the gunslinger (by twirling his cup on his finger) are two scenes I think of when I think of that movie.
jt8
"Obstacles are those frightful things you see when you take your eyes off your goals." -- Sydney Smith
Edited 1/26/2006 5:48 pm by JohnT8
Yeah, by far the best charachter in that movie was Val as Doc."I'll be your huckleberry"
Oh I'm embarrased, I think your right. Oh well. "I'm your huckleberry"note I edited each message.
Edited 1/26/2006 5:40 pm ET by xosder11
You're probably witnessing a fair amount of sag in the current ceiling. It's just that sorting it out from the other garbage going on is difficult.Sag will basically take two forms: Elastic and plastic.Elastic sag is what occurs immediately. You put up a joist and hang on it and it will sag a certain amount, then go back to near it's original position when you let go. Elastic sag is fairly easy to figure -- a given amount of weight on a beam of a given stiffness will cause a given sag.Plastic sag occurs over time. Wood (and drywall) is plastic, and if bent beyond a certain point will not go back to its original position. Further, even if it's bent within it's elastic range (like hanging on the beam above), if it's left loaded for long periods of time it'll "take a set". Thing is, once wood has "taken a set", that becomes the new "normal" position, and further loading causes further sagging. Over time the wood will sag more and more (though the rate of sag tends to decline after a time, unless the stress is extreme).Humidity affects how both wood and drywall "take a set" -- they tend to sag less under dry conditions. Wood is also affected by heat (drywall less so) and will tend to take a set more in warmer temps.Steel, when not grossly overloaded, exhibits virtually no plastic sag.
If ignorance is bliss why aren't more people
happy?
Thanks Dan. I am always apreciative of the free education I get around here. Last question, I'm not trying to dispute the idea that sag happens less with thicker board. I did my reaserch elsewhere and found similar information. If they say it's so I'll bite but... What I am wrestling with in my mind however is it seems like thicker board = more weight which would cause more sag. Even with the drywall itself although it is thicker cross sectionally (< a word?), wouldn't it want to deflect as much proportionatly under it's own weight. Does my question make sense. I'll ask again. You've got a board with a greater thickness, so it's stiffer, but it weighs more per sq. ft. so it is resisting more of its own weight. I would think that phenominon would negate the advantages of going with a thicker ceiling. Furthermore, independent of the board itsself, I would be adding greater loading to the wood structure, so I would see more of the sagging taking place in the wood members. I know I ask too many questions. If you are tired of this you can ignore me. I won't get offendedAndrew"I'll be your huckleberry"
The stiffness of a material is proportional to it's thickness CUBED. So going from 3/8 to 5/8" material you increase stiffness by 125/27, or 4.6, while the weight only increases by 5/3 or 1.7. Cardboard sags less than tissue paper.Yes, the greater weight of the 5/8" material will increase the load on the supporting structure. This is why you should think twice about using wood 2x4s for the structure.
If ignorance is bliss why aren't more people
happy?
Whew, now I can sleep tonight. Thanks For the explanation."I'm your huckleberry"
I don't think theb problem with the old ceiling is supoporting it in general ... but more that the plaster is falling off the lath. You're idea is good, but it only holds up the plaster around the perimeter.
"When asked if you can do something, tell'em "Why certainly I can", then get busy and find a way to do it." T. Roosevelt
I guess the plaster just has to go then -sigh- I'll go to the store and get the contractor bags.
and some 1/2" dw since all I have on hand is 3/8
Not if the new joists are installed hard against the plaster...
1 1/2" wide on 16 centers outta hold up most any plaster problems.
Troy Sprout
Square, Level & Plumb Renovations
You're assuming the old ceiling is flat.
If ignorance is bliss why aren't more people
happy?
Then strap and shim. Still better'n dikin w/ old plaster and lathe, IMO.Troy Sprout
Square, Level & Plumb Renovations
Shimming can be a royal PITA.
If ignorance is bliss why aren't more people
happy?
What the heck isn't a pita when doing renovation?
You want it level? Shim and trim. Smooth? Skim and sand. Square? Measure and wedge.
The man's trying to install a fan and keep plaster from falling on his head. The level of finish is entirely personal considering the parameters.
Gotta give him credit for considering his neighbors.
At least I consider the options I presented as "IMO".
Humbly.Troy Sprout
Square, Level & Plumb Renovations
We do this type of work frequently. We shoot screws in or remove any loose plaster. Shim the areas that need it to get it level. Rock right over the whole deal using 2" screws and glue. Finish and sand smooth. Texture if the client wants it. Before you hang the drywall you can cut into the center of the ceiling and put what ever bracing or bracketry in for your fan then cover the are when you rock it. Why go through the agony of all of the framing. DanT
"You want it level? Shim and trim. Smooth? Skim and sand. Square? Measure and wedge"I am quickly becoming a master of all of these finer arts ; )"I'm your huckleberry"
Edited 1/26/2006 5:33 pm ET by xosder11
it's called character ...
what's with the "flat" ...
U gonna set glassware up there or something?
Jeff Buck Construction
Artistry In Carpentry
Pittsburgh Pa
If the ceiling is going to have a belly or roll to it, it's better to just patch up the old stuff and preserve all that "character". A new ceiling that isn't flat will look exceedingly half-arsed.
If ignorance is bliss why aren't more people
happy?
"it's called character .."Thats right Jeff. This building has plenty."I'm your huckleberry"
Edited 1/26/2006 5:32 pm ET by xosder11
Yep, you're right. Missed that small item somehow.
"When asked if you can do something, tell'em "Why certainly I can", then get busy and find a way to do it." T. Roosevelt
Hakcinatit,
I realize now the only problem with your plan is that my existing ceiling is not flat, so all of my new ceiling joists would not be tight to the ceilng if I want to get the new ceilning flat. I could shim up to it which would be about two inches in some cases. I'm not ruling anything out. I don't think the plaster is as loose as some are assuming. there are crasks but not any plases that feel considerably loose. My only fear is that if I add a ceiling fan in the prorposed system it would further stress the existing plaster."I'm your huckleberry"
Edited 1/26/2006 5:31 pm ET by xosder11
tons of remodeling work is done with screws ...
simple deck screws will work for your project.
Jeff
Buck Construction
Artistry In Carpentry
Pittsburgh Pa
Thanks everyone for the responses
OK, as someone who's played around a bit with screw(y) framing, here's what I can recommend:
1. Don't use a #8 screw for anything structural, they are just too thin.
2. For a 3.5" screw, use the #9 Deckmate Square Drive... you can only get them at Home Depot. These are especially good for "toenail" style connections.
3. For a 3" screw, use this:
http://www.mcfeelys.com/multiple.asp?ProductID=1027-WPX
1027-WPX - 10x2-7/8 ProMax No-Co-Rode Round Washer Head Screw
The shank is 1.5" long, perfect for bonding two 2x pieces. Also good for attaching shear hangers through multiple layers of wood, as the head sits flat to the metal instead of trying to deform it out. It will draw together two boards without splitting the wood too.
4. For face attachment of shear connectors, use this:
http://www.mcfeelys.com/multiple.asp?ProductID=1014-WNC
1014-WNC - 10x1-1/2 Deep Thread Round Washer Head Screws - No-Co-Rode Finish
These hold much better than the TECO style nails or other 1.25" nails normally used for hangers
5. I think the 2x4 framing for everying except the ceiling fan bracet is more than enough. It's not like anyone is going to be storing anything in that 8'x8'x4" space! Think about going to 24" OC too. If there is a real justification for needing 2x6 to span an 8' space, I'd like to hear it.
6. You might want to use these PF24 hangers or an LU24 (or similar)
View Image
Two screws on the top of the rim board per hanger, mount the hanger, then place the 2x4s and "toescrew".
7. Predrilling isn't absolutely needed but can really help. Nails are flexible, so if a nail curves a little following the grain while it's driven it's no big deal as the head will go flush with the surface no matter what. On the other hand, it's easy for a screw to get angled off a few degrees while it's starting as it follows the grain, but then the head will not sit flat against the connector. Just a quick 1/2" deep hole is all that is normally needed to keep the screw perpendicular to the wood. Full depth predrilling isn't needed unless you are next to the end of the board. This means that all the "toenails" should be predrilled so you don't split out the end grain.
Here is a pic of some stuff I've done:
View Image
And yes, it did pass inspection!
Rebuilding my home in Cypress, CA
Also a CRX fanatic!
Can you mount the drywall directly onto the plaster? As long as you get to the joists with your screws you're golden.
You'll need to reset your electrical box and rehang the fan.
a.
the existing drop ceiling structure is wierd. I think it's sagging although there are no cracks around the perimeter where you would expect them. Bottom line, along one wall the ceiling is 1 1/2" to 2" lower in the middle of the wall than in the corners. I was going to live with teh ceiling untill I discovered this as the new ceiling is really beyond the scope of what I wanted to do.Ultimalely I wanted to put a crown moulding ande the only way to do it with the existing ceiling woulld be to drop teh crown but the uneven space between teh top of the crown and the ceiling would be too noticable for me along an 8' wall. In another room along a 12' run the ceiling was 1" lower in the middle of the wall and I was able to bend the crown into place end then attach it with trim screws to hold it in place. The coped corners were not perfect but this was just paint grade stuff so a little caulk and paint made a big difference.Someone brought out the phrase "sloptical illusion" in the other thread about construction terms. I was laughing so hard when I read that one cause it is about the best I could hope for in a 110 year old building with considerable settlement."I'm your huckleberry"
Edited 1/26/2006 5:31 pm ET by xosder11
Another option is to use steel studs as ceiling joists. Use a laser level to put C-channel around the perimeter of the room, then hang studs off of that. I would use galvanized #10 round washer head screws (lots of them) to fasten the channel to the wall. Don't do something half-assed like pick up what's at HD and then support it in the middle, do the proper load calculations and then special order the proper gauge and length from a DW supplier. You can get load specs for steel studs as joists here.
Needless to say, the fan should be mounted independent of the steel studs if you go this direction.
Disclaimer: I'm a know-nothing DIYer, this is just an option I investigated once.
Thanks Taylor. I love the disclaimer ; )"I'm your huckleberry"
Edited 1/26/2006 5:32 pm ET by xosder11
Yeah, steel studs would be the way to go. Use the steel U channel around the perimeter and the heavy-duty studs across.Be sure to protect any wiring so that it doesn't rub against a sharp edge.I don't see why you couldn't mount the fan on the steel studs, but you'd want to add extra cross-bracing, top prevent vibration/wobble. Something like a piece of 1/2" plywood about 3x3 feet layed on top of the studs and screwed to them (though screwing from above would be a trick, so probably some other mounting scheme is better).
If ignorance is bliss why aren't more people
happy?
I don't see why you couldn't mount the fan on the steel studs, ....
For a 35-lb fan I expect you could see a hell of a deflection, and I would worry about pullout of the screws.
Just putting a recessed can on steel channel, I was advised by Marinoware to beef up the steel gauge a notch. They pooh-poohed putting a fan on it. They also recommended that the U-channel be a gauge higher than the studs.
Put a 35-lb fan on a heavyweight steel stud and I doubt that the eye could even detect any deflection.
If ignorance is bliss why aren't more people
happy?
I use a lot of screws for remo work to avoid shaking plaster loose.
GRK Canada makes great structural screws.
Welcome to the
Taunton University of Knowledge FHB Campus at Breaktime.
where ...
Excellence is its own reward!
if the structure holding the plaster is in good shape why not just cover the existing plaster with either 3/8 or 1/2 drywall fastened to the existing framing - punch some holes in the ceiling at the walls to check the direction of the framing, mark the walls then install the new drywall - for an 8x8 room, you're talking 2 sheets - why make more work for yourself with all this framing? Fasten the new sheets at the walls- then snap lines between the marks on the walls and go to town with the screwgun -- the old ceiling probably "failed" because the keys between the lath broke. the lath and framing could be fine
something to think about
good luck
The original poster didn't mention it in his first post, but apparently the ceiling drops nearly two inches in a distance of only four feet. So he's thinking that framing a whole new, lower, ceiling might be the way to go.This was his quote in a later post:"...along one wall the ceiling is 1 1/2" to 2" lower in the middle of the wall than in the corners..."Ultimalely I wanted to put a crown moulding and the only way to do it with the existing ceiling woulld be to drop the crown but the uneven space between the top of the crown and the ceiling would be too noticable for me along an 8' wall."
Edited 1/26/2006 1:05 am ET by WNYguy
problem is, the existing ceiling is a dropped ceiling. I'm on the top floor of the building and above the ceiling is like a 1 1/2' airspace and then the roof rafters (flat roof w/ rubber membrane. The ceiling structure that exists is a criscrossing grid at 12 or 16" centers of strapping, themn lath and plaster. There is a 2x4 strongback above teh strapping grid going across the room, and I suspect that the 2x4 is tied at midspan w/ a piece of strapping to a rafter above. This system used to be sufficient for the 12" x 12" tiles that used to be stapled to it, but later on I think someone added the plaster and overloaded it a lilttle.Also, there is no insulation and for what it's worth, I thought adding a little insulation added in my new structure could add a little benefit.And of course as WNYguy mentioned, the ceiling as it is is not flat enough to warrant trying to cover it. It would be alot of work to not solve an existing problem. As I mantioned in one post (probably shoulda been the first) I wanted to leave teh c eiling in tack and just paint it untill I realized as I put a sheet of dw on the wall just how much the ceiling dipped along the wall.Edit, when considering the strength of the existing ceiling, remember that this is 100 year old lumber. They just dont make it like this anymore, WOW is this stuff dense. It's heavy and STRONG. Not sure what species.Edited 1/26/2006 8:38 am ET by xosder11
Edited 1/26/2006 9:59 am ET by xosder11
Hi folks,
I've got a similar situation where I have and old, 80+ year old house with sagging ceiling joists. Instead of a drop ceiling (out of concern for future inhabitants having to contend with the original ceiling falling apart) I'm opting to level the ceiling using the method discussed in the November 2003 issue of FHB (page 84). This method uses steel studs, which are sistered to the old wood joists.
Has anyone here used this method? Any tips, traps?
I've got a Senco Duraspin battery powered driver that I intend to use to drive metal drywall screws.
Frank