Hey Guys,
I’ve read with interest some past threads that described various scribing techniques. I would like to be able to learn and then apply this technique where appropriate.
It has been suggested that scribing baseboards to the floor is superior to using shoe. Perhaps cabinet toe kicks would be a better example.
Would anyone care to post some closeup pics of finished work of this type? I’d like to see the level of fit that can be achieved by a craftsman who has mastered this skill.
All the best,
John
Edited 10/7/2005 11:35 pm ET by JohnTN
Replies
The important thing about scribing is to remember that you have to keep the dividers rock-steady while you drag them down the surface you want to scribe to. If you vary the angle of the dividers to the surface in either of the two planes, you won't get an accurate scribed line on the piece you need to fit.
You also have to make sure the piece you are scribing to is held steady and in the proper orientation to the surface you are scribing from. If you were scribing something simple such as a piece of base trim, but the trim were not locked perpendicular to the floor while you scribed the line on it, it won't fit the floor perfectly after being cut except at the same angle it was held while being scribed.
Boat-builders are required to scribe almost constantly. Almost nothing on a boat is made from a straight piece of timber. Instead, it's all compound curves. They don't always use dividers; frequently they will use a piece of wood known as a 'dummy stick' which is simply a stick that is drawn down the surface to be scribed while you hold a pencil against the other end of it. A boat-builder's toolbox will contain several different sizes of dummy sticks.
Many times, there are places you have to scribe something where you can't get that something in close enough to do the scribing until after it's been scribed and cut. A Catch-22, it would seem.
Boat builders have resolved this problem by developing a technique called "spiling" which, simply put, involves preparing a skeleton piece from bits of scrap in such a way that it will fit in close to the surface you need to scribe, and then scribing onto that. After which, you then transfer the scribed line from the spile board to the real piece of work, and cut it.
A much more detailed and comprehensive description of these techniques is published in Richard Birmingham's excellent book, Boat Building Techniques Illustrated, International Marine Publishing Company, 1984, Camden, Maine (ISBN 0-87742-176-5).
Dinosaur
A day may come when the courage of men fails,when we forsake our friends and break all bonds of fellowship...
But it is not this day.
Excelent post!
I'm a dummy-sticker, or a pencil scratcher. The only question remaining is how to cut the scribe marks for a purrfect fit. I freehand long rolling scribes on the tablesaw with a slight back bevel and then touch them up to the line with a hand or belt sander. Coping saw or jig saw only on the crazy cuts. For trickier scribes to brick or stone, I outline my first cuts with a pencil by eye. Knowing that I will have to place the board two or three times to get a tight fit, it occured to me how ridiculous it was to attempt a perfect initial fit with scribes. Learning to trust my eyes has become one of the quickest tools in the box IMO.
Scribing is a beast unto itself--
I have an arsenal of diff. tools to do just this. Including guide blocks, compass, mech pencils, even a two legged scribe from Fastcap.com.
Once the line is there the tools to get to it are just as varied, grinders, belt sanders, power planers, block planes even circular saws,
Patience and persevearce go a long way also. recently I did an entertainment center that butted up to a brick wall--7' filler , crown and base--all scribed to the brick.
With some tech. and intestanal fortitude you can get consistant , tight results, I gauge by my fingernail, business cards work too.
Dinosaur brings up some good points so I won't repeat them.
Scribing is up there with coping crown. Practice, pactience and tools make the difference.
Mike
" I reject your reality and substitute my own"
Adam Savage---Mythbusters
The closeness of scribe fit depends on the requirements and can be a tight hairline if that's what's required for the piece to look correctly. Base doesn't have to be that close, but it could be, and edges up closer to eye level often need to be. The main difference is how the final fit is cut and how many times it is fine tuned.
Fine tuning can be done with a saw or power plane for large adjustments, a hand plane for thin gradual cuts, and a small belt sander for small irregular variations that the plane can't match.
I'm also a "dummy block" fan and regularly keep playing cards and popsicle stick shims handy when installing base, which work good as for scribing. For instance if a piece of base needs a cut from the middle, the ends are supported evenly with the 1/16" thick sticks and a pencil is rested on an equal number of sticks and drawn across the base. For tighter clearances the playing cards can be used the same way. This is fast and easily adjustable for various situations. Walmart sells 400 popsicle sticks for about $3 and you'll find they work great as glue spreaders, epoxy mixers, stain mixers, shims, spacers, stripped hinge screw hole repairers, note pads, etc. A pair of end nipper pliers, used for pulling nails, easily cuts the shims to whatever shape is required.
While most of the guys at work use only carpenter pencils or round wood pencils, I'm a mechanical pencil fan and use a .7mm for fine lines and 1.2mm kid pencil for general stuff. However, there are times when a carpenter pencil sharpened off center is ideal for scribing certain lines. The 1.2 mm kid pencils are also installed in both my toolbelt compass and two-bubble log scribe. A sharp scratch awl is sometimes handy for scribing, as is a utility knife or edge of a 1/4" chisel.
For really irregular scribes, such as stain-grade wood against a moss rock fireplace, the jig saw, rasps, knife-edged sanding blocks, chisels or dremel tools can be useful. A favorite tool for matching rock surfaces is an air powered die grinder with 1/2" coarse sanding drums and 2" coarse sanding disks. It's compact, durable, much more powerful than a dremel tool and speeds are infinitely variable for rough or the lightest cuts.
Patterns are perfect for objects that can not be scribed on directly. Just as the boatbuilders do as mentioned above, the dummy block is used to trace an undersized scribe on the pattern, which is then reversed with the same dummy as the line is transferred to the object to be cut.
A variation on this theme for sheet material or other flat objects is the use of a "frog" to pinpoint corners or small irregularities that make a typical template/dummy block time consuming or otherwise difficult. The frog is positioned with its tip pointing at the point of interest and the frogs outline is then traced on the pattern paper and repeated for all the significant points needed to correctly draw the shape. Then the pattern is laid on the material to be cut and the frog is replaced in the outlines and points are transferred. The removed blade on a t-bevel works well as the frog since it has a simple shape and useful point, not to mention it's already on my tool belt. The thin smooth blade is also useful as a dummy block.
Having said all that, some of the best quality trim carps I know use nothing but a compass and one pencil for all scribe work.
:-)
Thanks guys, for taking time to share this wealth of scribing knowledge. All of this detailed information took time and effort to post. I appreciate your efforts greatly.
What little scribing I've done so far has been via the "dummy stick" method. On one occasion, I was able to use a flat carpenter's pencil and adjust the point to fine tune it.
Today, I did a small and simple scribe by wrapping a standard #2 pencil with painter's tape until the point was in correct registration with the piece I was marking. I was scribing a small plinth block against a hardwood floor, so it was easy to push the pencil wrapped in tape across the floor. Worked like a charm.
The popscicle sticks and playing cards are great ideas, I'm going to make sure I have plenty of both on hand for future use.
John
John
Just get a cheap pair of dividers. General makes em and you can get them at HD for couple bucks.
I do a crap load of scribes a week and I never use anything else.
The info that Dino gave you is good if your working on boats but assuming that your not most of that stuff isn't of much use.
Simple dividers!
Doug
Thanks, Doug. I'll be sure to score a set of dividers and give that a try...assuming I can get to the school bus stop before Sphere...lolJohn
From:
DougU <!----><!---->
Oct-8 8:18 pm
To:
JohnTN <!----><!---->
John
Just get a cheap pair of dividers. General makes em and you can get them at HD for couple bucks.
I do a crap load of scribes a week and I never use anything else.
The info that Dino gave you is good if your working on boats but assuming that your not most of that stuff isn't of much use.
Simple dividers!
Doug, the guy was asking about how far you can take the relatively simple concept of scribing. I was giving him a basic idea of that, as well as offering him a source to pursue it at a higher level.
I use dividers most of the time, too; I've got a pair of Stanley's that have been kicking around in my toolbox for ages: Came with a detatchable scratch-awl point, a clamp to hold a pencil, and a micro-adjusting nut on the arc. Great tool...but knowing other ways to do the job has gotten me out of a bind or saved me time more than once.
The use of dummy sticks is not by any means restricted to boat work or dealing with compound curves and complex shapes, either. A dummy stick is simply the missing third side of the triangle formed by your dividers. You can cut a chunk of scrap to whatever length you need in 10 seconds. And it has the advantage that, if you drop it, it won't get bent or knocked out of adjustment.
Dinosaur
A day may come when the courage of men fails,when we forsake our friends and break all bonds of fellowship...
But it is not this day.
Dino
I didn't see where he was asking how far he could take this "simple task".
Sounded to me like he was asking how to get better at scribing trim work, I've been known to read these things wrong so this wouldn't be the first!
I work frequently with a couple boat builders and both of them tell me the same thing, what you do building boats doesn't apply all that much to building cabinets or trim work. The're both pretty good at what they do so I'll assume they know what they are talking about.
I'm saying that most scribe work can be done with a simple pair of cheap scribes. I always have them handy so it seams the logical thing for me.
Doug
I didn't see where he was asking how far he could take this "simple task".
Sounded to me like he was asking how to get better at scribing trim work, I've been known to read these things wrong so this wouldn't be the first!
From:
JohnTN <!----><!---->
Oct-7 11:21 pm
To:
ALL <!----><!---->
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64211.1
I'd like to see the level of fit that can be achieved by a craftsman who has mastered this skill.
My reading of what he said just seemed to me to indicate an interest that went beyond simply scribing a backsplash (which one oughta be able to do with a pencil and yer thumb, when you get right down to it....)
OTOH, I've been known to overinterpret things myself from time to time, so we're both occasionally guilty of the same failing, LOL.
Dinosaur
A day may come when the courage of men fails,when we forsake our friends and break all bonds of fellowship...
But it is not this day.
That log scribe is bear to get the hang of...I did the log curved stairway and coped all the treads in the log risers....aye carumba!...like rubbing your belly and patting yer head and chewing gum on roller blades going up an MC ESCHER staircase on acid.
Never again...I toss elementary kids at the bus stop for the fat pencils and geometry compasses they all have in that knapsack.
Sometimes if ya hold em by the ankles and really shake, ya get a sharpener too...and a few quarters..I give them back and a buck or so too boot. look fer the kid with the thickest glasses or a poket protecter...ya might score a protractor too. Spheramid Enterprises Architectural Woodworks
the cheap General Dividers Doug mentioned will get ya thru 99% of your scribing life.
I like to have a sharply chiseled carpenters pencil ... laid on the flat it's aprox a "fat 8th" and on the side it's right around a 1/4" ... sharpen it to a point with a utility knife and it's a multipurpose tool.
I too would like to see some of those "scrib to fit" cabinet applications ...
as I install cab's on almost a daily basis and think all this talk of scribe as opposed to shoe to be complete and utter bull sh!t. Base shoe is there for a reason. Old homes have base ... base cap ... and base shoe ... for one reason.
To help hide crooked walls/floor and to hide expansion/contraction gaps!
"It has been suggested that scribing baseboards to the floor is superior to using shoe."
That has been suggested ... and that does not mean it's "right" ....
Jeff
Buck Construction
Artistry In Carpentry
Pittsburgh Pa
I like base shoe too. I don't know why people think it is ugly.
I agree on the æsthetic issue about shoe and cap mouldings; that of course reflects my own liking for complex, built-up forms placed in simple applications. I have gotten to the point where I look at elegant base installed without a shoe moulding the same way I'd look at somebody wearing a tuxedo with no shoes (so ya can see his white gym socks stickin' out underneath, LOL)....
I scribe when it's necessary, not just because I can. If I'm installing a post-formed Arborite kitchen countertop with integral backsplash, yeah, I could scribe the back of the return on the backsplash to fit the wall--and I will if the wall is out by >¼". But if it's just an eighth, I'll smack it hard up against the wall tile and run a thin bead of silicone rubber caulk on the joint...because the caulk is necessary anyway in that application.
Where scribing becomes an essential skill is in things such as fitting a mantle shelf to a stone chimney or a deck to a stone foundation. Or fitting gyprock around the nosing on stair treads. Or scribing crown to fit a wavy plaster wall and/or ceiling. (Which last is a major pita, but there you are....)
Dinosaur
A day may come when the courage of men fails,when we forsake our friends and break all bonds of fellowship...
But it is not this day.
I have to take issue with scribing base to the floor. If the house yields a viewpoint where you can look along a long piece of base, as opposed to seeing it broadside, you will see every little wiggle in that scribe line accentuate the unevenness of the floor. Better in my opinion to use that straight line of the base to give your eye something clean to follow.
Same goes for crown moulding. Most people will snap a line on the wall and take the crown to that line. If the wall is uneven, doing it this way will cause the line where the crown meets the ceiling to reflect the wall's problems. In actuality, you can rarely stand in a place where you can sight the crown line on the wall, but you can usually sight the line on the ceiling. So snap your crown line on the ceiling, follow that with your material, and let the wall line wander out of straight. People will argue this point until they try it, and see that it works.
Whoa, getting pretty opinionated in here, eh wot?
Like a lot of others, I, too, use the 5 buck General dividers for 99% of the stuff I do. They're great 'til I lose that little ball on the end of the adjuster<G>
I personally like the way scribed baseboard looks. Thing is, the floor has to be sanded first. It's not a bad practice even if shoe is going down, eliminates that little roll right at the base that keeps shoe from fitting nicely anyway. We, obviously, charge a lot more for scribed base. After I point out that most of the base is hidden by furniture, very few clients pursue the "I hate shoe moulding, " thing<G>
You said you wanted some pics. No close ups, or you'd really be able to see what a hack you're dealing with, no base, and no good shots. They're all from my first 1mp digital camera, riiiight.LOL
All these were scribed with a mechanical pencil hot glued to various blocks. The strange cypress knees became table legs. The driftwood tops were scribed from a laser line after the bases were leveled by sticks. The cypress logs almost killed me...
BiteMe,Thanks for taking time to post the pics. Great looking work.Thanks again to all for the effort put into the replies to my question.John
John, I just remembered that FHB #172 has a good writeup on scribing a log post onto a stone base. See 'Master Carpenter', page 126.costofwar.com/
Pierre,Thanks...I'll check it out. I think I recall a pic of something similar being posted here on BT in the not too distant past. John
What I really want to know is what you are doing with those aluminum-framed windows, the ones where the GC bought the non-conforming brand for the center bays of the prow-wall units.
Nice detail work, BTW. Did you scribe those cypress knees to the floor ;-)?
The windows are still in progress, pics soon<G> "what's in a name?" d'oh!
as a kitchen cabinet maker and installer, i scribe panels and countertops everyday
a couple of examples:
end panels and back panels, level the panel with shims and draw a scribe line using a pencil following the floor and or wall laying the pencil on the adjoining surface
countertops are similarexcept only in one plane
on thick materials like 5/8 panels or 3/4 c'tops i first cut a back bevel on the sheet using a circular saw and then sand to the scribe line with a belt sander with 36 grit belt
with a little practice, its a very quick process