Can anyone help ? I am searching for a manufacturer of maintenance free (at least less maint than real cedar shakes) siding to replace shingles applied to the side of my house in rows of alternating exposures of about 4 and 6 inches. Thanks
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Hardie plank
wood outside is a 4 letter word
Edited 1/31/2005 7:00 pm ET by wain
nothing beats real wood unless you want a plastic looking cookie cutter house, or a clipped up vinyl looking one.
-28 years cedar shakes on the coast about 6" exposure.
jim,
Welcome to Breaktime!!
If you click on your name above (where it says "To: jim"), you will open your profile.
We would appreciate it if you could fill some of that in, especially where you are located!!
Thanks!
Regarding your question: fiber cement siding.
Rich Beckman
Another day, another tool.
Hardie Board siding. Takes a great coat of paint and holds up great, (or at least for the last 3 years) Imho the flat stuff looks better than the "real wood" looking stuff. They also make it in shingle style.
http://www.hardie.com/
http://www.hardie.com/homeowner/prodhome/hardishingle.php
Fiber cement siding.
They have some that looks just like your cedar lap siding, cedar shake siding, and anything else you can think of.
Works fine, lasts a long time!
Just my opinion...
James DuHamel
He who dies with the most toys.... Still dies!
"For what will it profit a man if he gains the whole world, and loses his soul?" MARK 8:36
http://www.godsfreemusic.com
Gentlemen:
I've put together alot of literature on vinyl and fibre cement siding in preparation of residing my two story house this spring. Vinyl seems to be a little cheaper but fibre cement will give me the "look"of wood which could increase resale value. Vinyl is lighter but fibre cement offers greater protection. Now I'm looking for real life comments on how these two materials compare for cost and ease of installation for a one man job. I would any and all advice. Thanks.
Carlos
how can you compare vynal to fiber....
not even in the same realm...
you want cheap get by or quality...
proud member of the FOR/FOS club...
Life is not a journey to the grave with the intention of arriving safely in a pretty and well preserved body, but rather to skid in broadside, thoroughly used up, totally worn out, and loudly proclaiming
WOW!!! What a Ride!
Edited 1/31/2005 9:41 pm ET by IMERC
fiber cement hands down
you can do it one man... but even the dumbest helper would be worth have'n while hang'n it...
I need to take some pictures ... there is a guy on a lake here who used it for roofing on his boathouse... i'd seen it for maybe 2 years before i figured out what it was...
I've heard of people staining it with concrete stain before they hung it... never seen it done... but also understand it's offered in colors.. again I've never seen but natural and not sure painting is even required...
pony
Carlos,
I live in the Nova Scotia, where the siding of choice is, and has been vinyl for years. I have always hated the stuff, especially when put over existing wood shingles or siding.
We built a home last year, and we wanted Hardie siding on the sides and back, with brick on the front. Our builder convinced us that it was not worth the cost, and that vinyl is perfect for our climate. We reluctantly agreed, and have been regretting it ever since.
When the wind blows, it sounds like there is a Bantam Kids Hockey Team outside our bedroom, slapping their sticks against the house. Things were quiet all summer, but with the first of the fall windstorms last night, we were up half the night with the racket.
Some builders now put Hardie siding on the front of a new build and vinyl all the way around. If I had to do it again, and we will, it will be a 'Vinyl Free' home.
Good Luck.................. Quinhead 'Half Asleep' Fry
Fiber cement siding does need to be painted, but paint will last about 15 years or so, assuming you follow the manufacturer's instructions regarding prep and paint. I consider that an advantage, as you can get any color you wish.
Vinyl is actually more maintenance than fiber cement in a sense. House paint is designed to weather and constantly expose new surface so it continues to look clean. So, the only real maintenance is painting, which is rare. Vinyl isn't self cleaning, so it needs to be washed down every couple of years, so depending on how much work you consider that to be, you might consider it more work than fiber cement.
I don't have good cost figures, but there is a considerable price difference. You really need a good budget for fiber cement. Don't forget to include the initial paint job in your budget.
"you need a good budget for fiber cement...."
I see that kind of comment once in a while here and I wonder why. On a sq. ft. basis, 8 1/4" (7" exposure) F/C costs just over 70 cents per square foot....add to that, the install, which, wherever you are, is going to be similar to wood and the painting is easier and uses less....
Prestained F/C costs about $1.70 sq. ft., (based on above parameters), but when it's up, after calking and some touch-up, it's done....
I've done quite a bit of the stuff in that last few years and, even though I live in the land of Western Red Cedar, Old Growth Doug Fir, Port-Orford Cedar, Redwood, et al, F/C is always a better deal costwise.
I'll admit that the F/C shingles are a bit pricey, but they still are competitive with the WRC blue label #1's, which, anymore, are often cut from course-grained 2nd or 3rd growth with little legitimate claim to longevity.
Please enlighten me.
Folks,
Thank you very much for the quick comments. Obviusly there is much experience out there with fibre cement siding and most everyone has seen vinyl sidng go up. Any fibre cement do's and don'ts are also welcomed.
Carlos
I put Hardi siding on my new place last year and I don't have any intention of installing it for others.
I bought a Kett cutter and wish that I hadn't. For only doing one house and old skillsaw with a blade for fibercement works well. You have to use a quality particle mask and gogles unless you are always cutting outside in a stiff breeze.
We shot the stuff onto osb with a Hitachi roofing nailer. IIRC, ours is six inch wide "Ceder Mill". When you go with the narrower pieces there may be more of them, but you can blind nail the whole works with a roofing gun and it goes well.I'm thankful for the loyal opposition! It's hard to learn much from those who simply agree with you.
Thank you so very much for the advice. The presence of excessive and potentially hazadous duct kicked from cutting fibre cement is commonly reported. Thanks for the warning. Would you mind telling me what made you pick fibre cement over some other kind of cement and did you ever have any problems when handling the boards alone?
Carlos
I'm not sure what you mean by "some other type of cement".
I didn't put the stuff up by myself. You can get little metal clips that snap onto each board and then pull out before you finish nailing so that you can do it by yourself. We tried it, but it was a hassle so we went with two guys installing. (I have two sons.)I'm thankful for the loyal opposition! It's hard to learn much from those who simply agree with you.
The danger is from the sand, not from the fiber. You have to have fiber or something like it to give the siding enough tensile strength to do its job and to be fastened to the wall. The fiber in fiber cement is analogous to the lath in plaster or stucco.
Have plenty of help. This stuff is HEAVY.... I had all the trim done in the same f/c and trying to put up the gable end with 1x8x12 is work for 3 men...
Also use a air nailer, as trying to drive a nail is impossible. Unless you pre-drilled first. Contractor said he would charge double next time he had to install.
Installation fairly straight forward, similar to real wood siding.
Have to say that the finished product is worth it, it looks great when finished. Chose this because I could get any color that I wanted not limited like vinyl. Siding comes pre painted but in limited colors. Had a painting contractor in my area that would have pre-painted to any color before install, but didn't work out time wise. Was not sure of touch up if painted before install. I had mine spray painted, and touch up is noticeable if done with a brush. Same for all sprayed i guess. Over all I am very pleased and will definitely use next time.
Dap
This answers many critical questions for me and no doubt for others. Hopefully industry reps are watching and working on the problem.
Thanks
Carlos
1x8 hardie plank 12 ft long cypress imprint primed-
Lowes sells for about $5 here- thats cheaper than wood.
Carlos,
I used Hardi FC siding on a new detached garage/shop and used that opportunity to 'test' the product before residing my entire house. Based on my experience (as a DIYer), I will not hesitate to use it on my house. I found it to be about twice the cost of vinyl (only looked for comparison - I will never touch that stuff) and half the cost of cedar in this area. I agree with other posters that the smooth finish is much better - you notice the joints less on a wide wall. A few install tips...
1) It is much more helpful if two people carry the stuff.
2) I pre-painted everything inside the garage on sawhorses using a 7-inch roller. It went very fast and got great coverage. No need to prime (the stuff I used was factory primed). Used a high quality exterior latex.
3) I installed nearly every piece myself. Two or three people would certainly be faster, but I prefer the solitude, I guess. I built a little bracket by bending some flat 2-inch wide, predrilled, galvanized steel to hold up one end of each plank. I put a mark on the bracket so that it would hang from a nail at the right height, walked to the end of the board and worked my way back to the bracket. The bracket had a notch in it so that I could slide it off beneath the plank.
4) I used a thin siding nail as a spacer between corner boards and adjacent planks.
5) I bought the hardiblade for my circular saw, cut outside and did not need respiratory (cough cough) protection. The new blade cuts like butter (very little dust) and I'll have it for the house anyway. You can stack the stuff and cut multiple pieces at the same time. Cut with paint side down.
6) I hand-nailed everthing. You don't need an air nailer, contrary to what some may say. If you had two people and could finish the job in a day, sure an air nailer would be great. But I took a few days to do it myself. I used 2-inch galv. roofing nails (nice, flat head). I predrilled in corners. I eventually got good enough at starting the nail that pre-drilling wasn't necessary.
7) Use the best latex caulk you can buy. I caulked twice. I filled each gap and smoothed everything once, then after the caulk had dried (shrunk), I re-caulked and used a hard rubber grout pusher (just some funky gadget I found at my local hardware store) to get a nice flat seam. With paint, you cannot tell where the seams are.
It was my first experience with the product and I'm extremely pleased. I was able to match the same reveal as is typical for the 1925 homes in the area and until you're 3 feet from the house, you cannot tell it ain't wood. There are a lot of 'fake' products out there that are intended to look 'real.' I consider FC siding real unto itself.
Cheers,
Jason
Jason,
This is a terrific primer. Thank you very much. I've printed out your email to keep it by my work stand should I decide to go the fibre cement route. "Twice the cost of vinyl" is something I will have to think about as well as the reality that the only non vinyl clad houses in my development are brick sided. But your note prompts me to take not only a serious look at this siding material but also to not be afraid of tackling this job by myself. Thanks again.
Carlos
Hey Carlos:
I sided my 2500 SF house in the fall mostly by myself, though it's wise to hire helpers once you get over 9' and on the scaffolding. Get the Hitachi NV 65AH siding gun, as it will pay for itself in spades. To hang the 12' lengths myself, I made hangers out of the strapping that held the Hardi on the skids, and I cut the stuff with my worm drive using Home Cheapo carbide tipped blades (6 or so) which cost about $9 each. Before I began, I searched the Breaktime forum for useful stuff that I thought would help me, and cut and pasted it into a text document. Here it is:
Don't nail too close to the edge. It blows out too easily.
My personal preference is the lap siding, although the stuccco 4x8 sheets look good also. the sheets are HEAVY!!!! and slow. consider at least 3 guys per sheet to hang it safely. The lap goes on quicker and easier to manipulate. The laps sizes range from 8.25, 9.25 and 12. ON the 12 you need to face nail because it will flop around a bit. The others look better because they are blind nailed all the way. ( however you must occasionaly face nail a bulge due to the framing.)
DO NOT counter sinkyour nails. I went around and around with the other guys explaining that it voids the warranty. The fasteners should be flush or just proud. Once you bust through the facing it loses its holding power
Hardi says leave an 1/8 gap at the joints. Being a perfectionist that is hard to do for me so we left 1/16. it does move, so have your painter caulk it good. Takes paint great. Great product! trouble free.
I used maze nails that were double dipped galvanized came in sticks for Hardi Plank installation, I think they were 2 1/4 and fit the round head framing nailer by Porter Cable, if I remember right, I haven't done any in a while. Most people want that dam vinyl siding. I think Maze sells individual nails as well. The website is http://www.mazenails.com
For installing these fiber cement sidings we use the Duo-Fast Model RCN-60/225ADJ Round Head Coil Nailer(btw $3-400.00 about $80-$125 for electro plated galvinized ringshank nails or $410.00 for Stainless ring shank, one box usually does more than an average sized house).
I use a roofing coil nailer with stainless steel roofing nails. Cemplank recommends either hot dipped or stainless. A $200 box will do a 2,000 sq ft house. Electroplated nails may eventually rust and can streak the siding. For the dust I position a good sized fan behind the cutting table to blow all the dust away from the installers ... works great. I also use a cheap dedicated Skill saw with a dry diamond blade. The dust will ruin the motor of a good saw.
A diamond saw blade for a 7" skill saw is only about $40
Fasteners must be corrosion-resistant, galvanized or stainless steel. Electro-galvanized nails are acceptable for use with James Hardie Siding Products, but may exhibit premature corrosion. James Hardie recommends the use of hot-dipped galvanized nails. James Hardie is not responsible for the corrosion resistance of fasteners.
Hardie says either is ok. Stainless steel is necessary only where there is unusual corrosion, say, industrial pollution or salt air. The galvanized, though, must be the real hot double dipped, not the electrogalvanized.
I've found a blade through amazon.com that may help with cutting. It's made by MK and is called a 7" Plank Kutter Dry Diamond Blade. It lists for 34.99 and is made specifically for cutting fiber cement/plank siding.
We tried a few different blades with it but the DeWalt diamond tipped carbide blade made for the fiber cement has been doing pretty good.
hitachi hardi blade. i've used mine on about 50 jobs and it still cuts fine, well worth the $60 or whatever i paid for it. as far as dust goes, i just make sure i'm upwind and exhaling.
They used Makita cement board blades in a Makita table saw and a regular Makita portable circular saw.
Awhile back I won a Hitachi siding cutter blade in a lumber yard drawing and it set gathering dust in my shop. But I'm currently siding a new house with Certainteed's prestained plank which is a little touchy to deal with. Even the diamond blade tended to cause some minor chipping of the surface on rip cuts.
So just for the hell of it, I hung this new 4 (four) tooth blade on my saw and it was great! Smooth, fast, easy to control cuts....on repetitive lengths I was stacking 7 planks and I swear it cut faster than it did through one plank.
39981.2 in reply to 39981.1 Hitachi nailer, blade for the wormdrive, leave the chop at home. Pump jacks. Cooler. Radio. Shades. New 100' lightweight poly hose. Those are the cats meow.
Cutting holes for outlets and such is hard on blades. Plain steel blades are useless. Bimetal blades work, but plan on two blades for each hole. I think an abrasive blade (that is, with grit edge) would work better. I've use them on fiberglass when metal blades would go dull quickly. For small holes, a masonry or glass drill would be good.
Great product. You will need to keep it very dry before it goes up. It will absorb lots of water before it is painted and so will be heavier and want to bend more when wet. Also, it will expand anlong its length as the humidity increases so it is best to leave an 1/8" gap on end to end joints and use a good quality very flexible caulk to fill the gap. The movement is noticable.
Regarding clips with the Hardi-Plank...I have used a simple job site made clip to help hold the siding in place to be nailed. Simple take a 3inch piece of metal banding material and bend it into a "S" shape with the distance you want as the overlap. Make several of these clips and place them the top of the siding to receive the next piece. After nailing a couple of nails to hold the new piece, side out the "S" clips and contiue nailing. This works for if you are blind nailing and standard nailing the siding. Try it .... you will like it!!!! Fast and easy. Oh, don't forget to check your level every couple of runs. This will help you keep the siding looking great.
P.S., I used the Maze nails, expensive but worth it. Here is a couple of pics, good luck!
Cedar shingles are as maintenance-free as you can get. Vinyl needs powerwashing and is worn out after 30 yrs. Fiber looks so-so and needs paint after a while. PROPERLY installed cedar shingles, not painted, are the best lo-maintenance all-around siding option out there.
around here what i have been seeing alot of is on the long run sides of houses they are run'n a hardie trim board top to btm with the space between em being the exact fit of the lap siding so there are in effect no mid run joints... and it really doesn't look too bad... don't know if it's a local thing... or just really helps with the unskilled labor...
being 2x the cost of plastic siding... i'm not too sure... by the time you buy all the required "trim" parts... that you have to use for plastic..
pony
What about the discoloration that occurs with cedar products though. I love the reddish color of cedar when it is fresh, and I even think the grey color can look nice with the right surroundings, but I would rather the red and don't want that to change. I've heard of products that prevent the fade, or bring the color back. I even tried a preventive coating on a mail post but it still faded to grey. I'd like to know if you know of a product that works, but cedar still requires a lot of maintenence to remain beautiful doesn't it? Please tell me if I'm wrong because I definitely would like to side my house with red cedar. Well I guess you could paint it huh...but what about termites? rot?
Share the info...share the wealth.
Hi J;
You picked up an old thread. Interesting to me because I love wood, but am considering the cement siding for a renovation on a house I have.
Working on a cedar sided one right now (have another thread out there on painting it). Got to say, it's a pleasure to work, even smells good if you like wood. On the rot/bugs, no problem. Cedar has a natural resistance to both. You can't be stupid and put it on the dirt, but under normal circumstances, it works. Coincidentally, my project has some parts that were sided with cedar over 100 years ago, and the boards are in great shape. A few (less than 1%) that were done less than 10 years ago are cupped and ugly. Different trees and cuts back then.
As far as keeping the red color, that is totally beyond me.
Don
Like DonK said, rot and bugs are generally no problem with cedar. Cedar's natural tannins (acids) turn off anything that wants to eat it.
As for "discoloration", if you don't live near the ocean you will probably get more of a brown color and less of a silver color as the cedar ages. There are lots of stains out there which, while not exactly "preserving" the color, will add pigments that can make the wood look new again. Sikkens is one good name for stains, Penofin is another. I would beware of any products that claim to preserve the original color. UV light breaks down the wood cells on the surface and causes them to discolor, so you need something with a UV inhibitor. The only products I've seen that seem to do a good job at this are Spar varnishes, but they create a film that can peel off so I wouldn't use them outside except for something like a door protected by a deep porch.
You can paint cedar, no problem. Up here in New England you can get white cedar shingles pre-dipped in stain. Frasier and Maibec are two of the most popular brand names of dipped shingles. They use Cabot stains, so pretty much any color you want you can get.
Mike
Jim,
Stone is as low maintinace as it gets plus it dramatically adds to the value of the house as well as safety of the occupants..
Drive by shooters bullets won't penetrate too far thru granite!