Pictures not the greatest but see if you can find something wrong or missing.
Edited 5/22/2009 7:33 pm ET by Gunner
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Edited 5/22/2009 7:33 pm ET by Gunner
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The door? Ground?
Looks clean to me!
I am not a sparky but I do not see a ground. If I right what do I win?
"Shawdow boxing the appoclipse and wandering the land"
Wier/Barlow
Maybe the ground is optional when everything is labeled.
Yes the ground is missing. Guy tried to tell me you didn't need one. Also told me that it wasn't bad to mix 14 gauge wire with 12 gauge wire on a 20 amp circuit. I've been listening to these electrical lessons all day. I'm going to the gym to throw some weights around, then I'm coming home and drinking Scotch heavily.
Grand fathering in electrical licenses should be unconstitutional.
Not Now Dog, I'm Tweeekin.
Edited 5/22/2009 7:25 pm ET by Gunner
What size wires are those?Might be an optical confusion, but they look like they are #18..
William the Geezer, the sequel to Billy the Kid - Shoe
Are you talking about the circuits? They are all different sizes. Those are correct I roughed in the house, and the panel. But I didn't build the service, or put in the breakers.
This Yo-Yo has been working on the finish. Todays the first day that I've been over there since he started the fiinsh. I was screaming at the top of my lungs when I left. I just hate to see such incompetence in people that actualy believe they are really good at what they are doing.
Not Now Dog, I'm Tweeekin.
Edited 5/22/2009 9:31 pm ET by Gunner
What's going to happen next?
Bill
What's going to happen next?
My head explodes. Get back.
Not Now Dog, I'm Tweeekin.
I forgot the best part. It passed Temp on the main. I love our electrical inspectors.
Not Now Dog, I'm Tweeekin.
Wow. I don't know where to start. What state are you in? I mean other than seriously pissed off, somewhat hammered. GROUNDING! MF GROUNDING!!
I'm begining to believe I live in Hooterville.
Not Now Dog, I'm Tweeekin.
Hope you feel all better now!;)Educate me more better - if this were a secondary panel, it still needs a ground, but the box doesn't get bonded, right?
Welcome to the Taunton University of Knowledge FHB Campus at Breaktime. where ... Excellence is its own reward!
Like when the highlander said in the original movie ' a sword'?
It's out of focus??
The Ground Electrode Conductor might be in the meter base.
Edited 5/23/2009 3:54 am ET by gfretwell
Why wouldn't you ground the panel?
Not Now Dog, I'm Tweeekin.
Hmm, logic like that makes me wonder if he wasn't the genius that did a lot of the mis-wiring here. I like your labels at the breakers. I do that in the boxes, but never thought to do it here. Have to steal that idea if you don't mind.'Man who say it cannot be done should not interrupt man doing it' ~ Chinese proverb
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He's counterfeit all the way.
I take a piece of romex and make a sleeve with it and slip it over the neutral and ground wire to make sure they are labeled too. That way if the need ever arises you know where they are. Odds are you may never have to. But for the few seconds it takes while making up the panel it could be well worth it. Especially in a full panel that's hot.
When I got the rough in inspection the inspector was quite complimentary on the neatness of the project. In this area it's so cut throat and guys have to work so fast and cheap that they go bare minimum in effort, and cost on everything they do. I explained that I used to do residential, and now do commercial and it was hard not to run it all in conduit or MC cable. But the main thing he liked was all my attic wiring was neat and out of the way. Everything run at 90 degree angles and stapled down.
This house is for my bosses daughter and her husband.
Not Now Dog, I'm Tweeekin.
Yeah, that's one of the best tips I can remember from the mag. Don't know why I never thought to do it in the panel like you. Makes it so much quicker to figure out what's going on, and where, instead of untangling a spider web of wire. Plus I feel all boy scout-y in leaving it cleaner than I found it.You find a 5k to run yet so we can start calling you the Electric Slide?'Man who say it cannot be done should not interrupt man doing it' ~ Chinese proverb
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Best advice I ever got, or made up. I can't remember. Is. Anytime you do it code you've given it your minimum effort. I always think of dead burnt bodies when I do electric work. It helps me thnk of better ways to do stuff. I'm at the gym right now getting ready to bang out 5 on the treadmill. Running been a little sluggish latley. I've been cleaning out my system this last week. (lost 8 pounds of sludge) Feel much better. I backed out of the 5k I was gonna run because of a family ordeal. I'll get one in before it's over.
Not Now Dog, I'm Tweeekin.
I wish you'd comeing over here taking pictures while I'm away working.
And flush the toilet when ya leave OK?Spheramid Enterprises Architectural Woodworks
Repairs, Remodeling, Restorations
"If Brains was lard, you couldn't grease much of a pan"Jed Clampitt
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I don't know the wording, but apparently the code allows the GEC(s) to be bonded to the neutral any place from the service connection (the weather head for overhead) through to the meter through to the panel.I have the 2005 NEC HANBOOK. That is a copy of the code along with commentary and background. The commentary and background is produced by the NEC personal, but it is not code.I can't post it now, but the handbook has an illustrations showing the connections at all of those places. I have seen comments from people online indicating that in their area it is common to connect the GEC from the ground rods at the meter and the GEC from the water pipe at the panel.A couple said that the reason is that the POCO wants to see a GEC before setting the meter.Of course both the panel and the meter still need to be bonded, either directly or indirectly via the neutral and/conduit..
William the Geezer, the sequel to Billy the Kid - Shoe
Post it when you can. I'll need it for the verbal brawl Monday morning. I guess the main point is. The panel needs to be bonded homie.
Not Now Dog, I'm Tweeekin.
Sorry I have not gotten back to you.Still can't access that part of my computer that has the screen capture program to copy drawings.But I found that I had posted them earlier.http://forums.taunton.com/tp-breaktime/messages?msg=106226.37And I posted a couple of others on ufer and other grounds.http://forums.taunton.com/tp-breaktime/messages?msg=92344.1http://forums.taunton.com/tp-breaktime/messages?msg=92078.8There is also a pretty picture show that all available ground electrodes have to be bonded together. That include ground rod(s), ufer, water pipe, metal building structure, etc. But apparently I have not posted that one before and can't access it now.
.
William the Geezer, the sequel to Billy the Kid - Shoe
Thanks Bill. After I posted that the guy didn't try to argue anymore. He must have went home that weekend and done his own research.
He's funny. I've been over to that house only once since then. I spent one day last week hanging lights and fans. It's over his head but he won't admit it. He tried to brag up his fan hanging skills when I first got started but when I offered to race him he found other stuff to talk about. I've been off on other projects so he's been working on it by himself and he's not getting anything done. Took him all day today to hang two vanity lights. He must have called me five times because he couldn't get his head wrapped around the concept of leaving the wires coiled up behind the drywall on the rough in.
It should have taken him four no more then five to do the whole house by himself. He's a putz.
Gangstas don't dance. We boogie.
Have you asked him to do any 3 way switches?"Put your creed in your deed." Emerson
"When asked if you can do something, tell'em "Why certainly I can", then get busy and find a way to do it." T. Roosevelt
Dude! You should see him with a three way. Well you should see him back away from a three way. Like I said I roughed the house in. When it came time to start the finish instead of doing all the devices in each room he did just the recepticles. I got lucky and showed up the day he decided to do the switches. He was trying to tell me how to wire them up. Then I explained to him how I had them made up. He was baffeled. I finaly told him. "Put the black wire on the black terminal then the other two on the others." Then he started questioning me on why it had to be that way. The guy is simply a jerk that never gets away from the shop. He wired his own cabin once and failed inspection like ten times. Anyway he finaly got himself so baffeled that he panicked and had to go run errands.
When he got back I had all the three ways and four ways done. Then he really got cocky with the lessons. He knew I wouldn't make him prove his theories.
The whole thing has been a trip to sillyville.
Gangstas don't dance. We boogie.
Edited 6/1/2009 8:58 pm ET by Gunner
>>>Then he really got cocky with the lessons. He knew I wouldn't make him prove his theories.Sounds like a complete loser, way more ego than brains. I hope you're covering your butt so that you don't get blamed for any of his bad work.Scott.
>>>>Have you asked him to do any 3 way switches?>>>>heck, from the sound of it, he doesn't really like the guy enough for such a proposition.
<!----><!----><!---->
I refuse to accept that there are limitations to what we can accomplish. Pete Draganic
Take life as a test and shoot for a better score each day. Matt Garcia
LOL! Now that deserves some kind of award. ;-)Mike HennessyPittsburgh, PAEverything fits, until you put glue on it.
Yes that was a great line. LOL
The latest and greatest brainstorm? The stove is going to be gas. The cabinet guy made a real nice wooden chase for the vent. Captain Fantastic couldn't believe the cabinet guy left a regular exhaust fan in there, instead of venting it out. Finaly the cabinet guy told him it wasn't his deal to vent stoves. He just made nice covers for them.
So Captain Fantastic vented it straight into the attic. "No need to run the vent outside. The attic is a big enough space."
Gangstas don't dance. We boogie.
Edited 6/5/2009 9:59 am ET by Gunner
I lost track. Is he building his own house for himself?.
William the Geezer, the sequel to Billy the Kid - Shoe
No. This is for our bosses daughter and her husband. The boss was smart in that he had someone else build the house and do everything except for the electric and final grading. On those two he's lost his #### because he doesn't know how to stay out of the way. He's added way too many freebies, or extras that he's not getting paid for, just because he thought it would be better. He's not in the residential mindset. In commercial work he would know how to work it. Plus he's had this guy hugging the milk jug. I got busy about the time he needed me too do the finish and he had to let this guy do it.
Gangstas don't dance. We boogie.
Plus he's had this guy hugging the milk jug
????"Put your creed in your deed." Emerson
"When asked if you can do something, tell'em "Why certainly I can", then get busy and find a way to do it." T. Roosevelt
He's milking the job out.
Gangstas don't dance. We boogie.
There is an argument that putting the GEC in the meter base keeps the lightning strike on the mast, out of the house.
Thats all well and good, but where is the Equipment Ground. Also required by code.
The equipment ground bus can be the same as the neutral bus if this is the main panel (assuming the 200a breaker on the top is the service disconnect). It is perfectly legal to land the grounding electrode conductor in the meter base. That is very common in SW Florida.
Is this a primary panel?
Seems to be missing a ground.
Welcome to the
Taunton University of Knowledge FHB Campus at Breaktime.
where ...
Excellence is its own reward!
It's a primary panel. And in your second post you are correct.
Not Now Dog, I'm Tweeekin.
Edited 5/23/2009 6:48 am ET by Gunner
Besides the ground being missing, you also may consider balancing your loads. Couldn't really tell because of the focus was a litle blurry.
They will be.
Gangsta don't dance. We boogie.
Ground. Caught it in the first 3 seconds.
That's what's so sad. A bunch of 13 year old girls on the Internet know more about it then this guy does.
Gangsta don't dance. We boogie.
Why is it that you can plastic tie all your hots together in the panel like this but you can only run so many wires through a hole together before you have a code violation?
I thought the theory was that if you get enough wires together that are potentially warm they overheat and the insulation melts, shouldn't this apply in the panel as well?
The size of the panel helps you out there I believe. Which is kind of BS too. You can get away with more in a panel then anywhere else.
Gangstas don't dance. We boogie.
"Why is it that you can plastic tie all your hots together in the panel like this but you can only run so many wires through a hole together before you have a code violation?"There is nothing in the NEC about that.Now too high a density in conduit would be a violation.If you have wires bundled together or conduit for more than 24" then you have to use the derating rules, but again not a violation just bundling them..
William the Geezer, the sequel to Billy the Kid - Shoe
Right so de-rating applies. I think there is something in the code that states the number that 2 3wire or 3 2wires can pass through one hole - is that not the case? In the case of the panel in question it is hard to tell if it is more than 24" - some of those wires look pretty long - if you did have to derate then based on the size of the bundle in the panel you'd have little capacity in the circuit left for actual load.
"Right so de-rating applies. I think there is something in the code that states the number that 2 3wire or 3 2wires can pass through one hole - is that not the case?"Nope. And it is very common to have a large number of wires through a nipple. Most common is when a panel is being replaced and the old box is being used as a junction box to feed the new panel. The new panel is mounted next to the old one and a couple of short nipples are used to connect them..
William the Geezer, the sequel to Billy the Kid - Shoe
The 2008 says you have to derate wires if the hole the wires go through is stuffed with insulation or caulk.
2008 - Isn't that every cable which passes between floors???
We have to seal with fireproof mortar at every penetration between floors - cables, ducts, plumbing pipes, vents, conduit......
JimNever underestimate the value of a sharp pencil or good light.
"2008 - Isn't that every cable which passes between floors???We have to seal with fireproof mortar at every penetration between floors - cables, ducts, plumbing pipes, vents, conduit......"Yup, the answer is don't try to stuff too many wires in a hole. (<9 CC)
In our jurisdiction the main feeds (with a grounding conductor) must all have a cover over them. Then the branch circuits can't go through under that cover, they go out the sides or bottom.
Have a good day
Cliffy
Ok, I am now proud of the electrician that came in and wired my subpanel.
I do not see a ground bus for the bare ground wire and it looks like some white wires are connected to the circuit breakers.