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I plan on being self employed in the future. The cost of health care scares me. I have a family which makes it more expensive. the best quote I’ve gotten so far is 500 a month. Thats a weeks pay+ for me! I guess we won’t eat that week. What are the best options out there and what do you guys use. Also what is your take on diability insurance. Right now I have workmans comp but I’m wondering if I should go for a disibility policy too. A little background on me. I’m 29, wife and one kid,and live in south Jersey. Thanks for all replies. I’ll sit back, keep my mouth shut, listen and learn.
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Joey:
Great question. I wrote a letter to the editors of FHB last year when I broke my hand and couldn't work for a month. It was no big deal but it really made me think about the need for insurance. They told me that they would answer it in the Q & A section, but I never saw the reply. Now there's Breaktime, I don't have an answer for you, but I'll be following this post to hear what others have to say.
Good luck.
*Joey, not having a health care program can really ruin your day, what with the escalating costs associated with sickness and injury. I've been self-employed for almost nine years and just now have been able to afford heathcare insurance. Your money always seems to run out before the end of the month. Actually, you rationalize that if you are careful and live right you won't have a need for insurance. And then you spend your money on a vacation, some new tools, going out to eat several times a week, you get the idea. My healthcare payments would not apply to you since I'm almost 54 and my kids are out on their own, but we looked long and hard and finally went to an AETNA broker and got an HMO stlye policy for 388.89 a month. That will go up, of course, as we get older - I think it is in five year increments. One of the prerequisites we had in selecting a policy was the coverage. You would not believe how many plans do not have 24/7. I'm worker's comp exempt and some plans won't cover you for accident or illness on the job. They even suggest that you hit the home owner or business owner insurance for coverage. AETNA covers me 24/7. If you are out of work due to accident or illness the everyday expenses can be covered by family or wife going back to work, but it's the medical expenses that will do you in in a heartbeat. One of our friends had a multiple heart by-pass operation. I don't remember what that cost but when he was admitted for THREE DAYS for observation, because the doctor thought he saw something on a stress test,the bill was over 28 THOUSAND dollars. That's the kind of hit it's difficult to recover from. So, keep on searching for a plan. Your wife and child need the coverage too. If you have a family doctor now he or she may be willing to help you evaluate any plan you might be interested in. By the way, you don't say if you are currently covered thru a job (yours or your wife's) but if you are a self-pay some doctors have a lower fee structure and you can get them to give you prescription drug samples so you don't have to spend your money at the drug store. It never hurts to ask. We always did and 9 times out of ten we came home with all we needed. Also, if you leave a job where you have insurance you can get on the COBRA program but that will cost more than you getting your own insurance.Personally, I didn't care for the 80/20 plans so we went with a "value" HMO. So far the coverage has been excellent. Our co-pay for the primary Dr. is $10 and $25 for referral to specialists. You can get a lower co-pay but at a higher monthly plan rate. Additionally, we are on a business plan, sort of a group plan for one. Your wife/family is an automatic inclusion and the payments must be made from your business account. However, since it is a business plan, you will be required to offer the insurance to your employees, if you ever have any (if your wife works for you it's great). I do the work myself or use subs who are fully licensed and insured (liability) and are WC exempt and provide written proof of exemption or of coverage. Therefore, they are not employees and are responsible for themselves. Many times I've noticed that these message threads just die after a few folks say their piece and we never learn if the advice or information was acted upon. I, for one, would like to hear how people who pose the original question actually end up resolving their needs. Thanks, Ralph
*I don't have much to say that's useful, except this is an area for legislation. Non-group medical is a pretty awful scene. Clinton's botching health care reform meant that it won't come up again for a few years yet. But more and more people are going self-employed, so there will be demands for changes.We're self-employed, family of three, $380 a month for somewhat limited BlueCross, significant deductibles. But not a bad deal -- the essential factor was CONTINUITY of coverage -- and BlueCross pays more readily that many of the HMO's. From when I left the gov't 2 years ago, I relied on COBRA until it ran out (18 mos.) then converted to their non-group coverage. But if there is ANY gap in your health care coverage the rates go way up. Don't let it happen. Look around for the best deals, check on COBRA benefits, etc.Insurance -- I'm an attorney so I see disaster possible everywhere -- but disability for someone who works with his hands is a big, big deal. If you lose your mobility you lose everything you've built up over the years. It's tough to send money to an insurance company, but if you hesitate ... just try to figure out how you'd manage if you were laid up for, say, 18 mos. with a back injury and then had to get a year of job training for a new field. Pretty grim, and it happens all the time. For the same reason, given the danger of the profession, you might look for some straight term life insurance. At your age it should be cheap, and it'll replace your income for your family if you are killed.There should be help available in your area from the SBA, contractors' association, etc. Asking other people there what they do may give you a head start. And, again, don't allow a gap in your health care coverage!Hey, if your wife can get group coverage through a job of her own, that's the best deal. Employment is so tight now that even part-time jobs sometimes have benefits. Starbucks, for example, attracts a lot of its people because of the benefits, young people who are in your situation.
*Joey - That 500/month health insurance is one example of why self employed carpenters have to charge 35.00/hr to stay in business. Add in tool, commercial vehicle, and liability ins, and you begin to see what is called "overhead". Now add in down time, the cost of "standing behind your work", time spent estimating jobs and running your business and you get a more realistic view of why folks charge so much, and have so little. If you are a good enough carpenter to be going on your own, you should be making a lot more than 500/week as an employee too. 20.00/hr is not great money for a carpenter anymore. - jb
*Joey H,Check into your local Chamber of Commerce. We joined ours some years back and were able to get health insurance thru the group plan provided by the chamber. Still not cheap, but cheaper than going it alone.Or you could go the traditional route.... Have your wife pickup a part-time job for the benefits. I believe that if a survey was conducted we would find a large percentage of the self-employed are able to be, because of a spouse with benefits!Jon
*Also look at what the local building association can do for you. I found a plan that looks better than the one my wife gets thru the hospital she works at (go figure).
*Well, after 15 years on my own, I don't have a better answer than: Have wife get job with insurance benefits, or move to Canada.I don't want to kill myself or get hurt bad, but I should, just to get something out of the, let's see, roughly $190,000 I've chucked out the window to the scourge of the universe, INSURANCE CO's. Thank you lawyers, juries, insurance morons. Great system.MAD
*Joey,You might want to contact the National Association for the Self Employed-(NASE). They offer a couple of different insurance plans along with other benefits, including long distance phone service, tax advice, web page set up, etc. They have a one time membership fee of $95, but I saved that in the first month when I switched to their insurance. The phone number for the national office is 1-800-232-6273, I'm sure they can put you in touch with someone in your area.
*Heavy Duty:Yep, NASE is pretty cheap. I carried health ins. with them for about 8 years, but I had to get a lawyer to get them to pay a hospital claim several years ago, in the meantime, I got sued by the hospital and lost. It is the worst mark on my credit record, thanks to NASE. When I dropped the insurance, they kept running the automatic payment from my checking account for several months.You get what you pay for
*Mad Dog,Sorry to hear about your experience with NASE. Who was underwriting the policy? I've only had my policy for about a year, it's underwriten by Prudental and is a preferred provider plan. I've only had to use it for minor things and haven't had any problems, but that doesn't mean there wouldn't be if something serious happened. I've heard horror stories about most insurance carriers, including workmans comp.I had heard some bad things about NASE from other people, including my partner, and of course brought this up to the representative when going over the policy. He admitted they had problems with their previous underwriter and that was why they had switched to Prudental. (yeah, sure.)I don't really know if the policy is any good, I hope I never have to find out, but it can't be any worse than the one I replaced which never paid for anything and cost $150 more per month. All I know is the policy states that I am covered 7/24 and that allows me to sign a workemans comp waiver and keep working.
*Joey, You will have to carry General Lability Ins. also. This will cover your jobs from any tpe of negligence or problem that might arise. If someone is walking by your job and they trip and fall and get hurt it would be your G/L that covers this type of accident. also if the temporary prop that you put on that old front breaks after you leave for the day, it is the G/L that will cover the damage. As far as you Workers Comp goes, That does NOT cover you, it is for Employees only. If you have no employees it will be cheaper but you still need to carry it for protection. As far as health insurance,good luck. Let me know if you find a reasonable policy.Find a good reputable agent and hook up with them and let them get you all of the insurance you need it will be easier.
*HD,I'm really not sure who the underwriter was, it's a good question. I was assuming they underwrote their own policies, but thinking about it says that is probably not the case at all, it's uncommon. I'll try to find out. Recently, I sent a letter to NASE requesting refunds of the extra money they charged to my account, we'll see how this works out. My policy had a $500 deductible per year. Seems every year, I would use up just about that much in medical bills, never getting to the point of realizing a benefit. Sounds like a healthy situation? Not really. I passed up a lot of stitches, and other occurances that probably should have seen medical care, knowing I'd be paying the ridiculous bills.But now, my wife and I pay $350/month for decent coverage including dental. I don't know what's worse, but at least this HMO does pay the bills I send them. I do wonder what will happen if I get hurt on vacation in Florida next month on an HMO plan, sort of scary.MD
*MDI appreciate your in-put. It made me wonder about the policy I have and I wouldn't want to steer Joey in the wrong direction. When I get a break from work, I'm going to take the policy to the agent I have my truck and business liability insurance with and have him read it over.When I was shopping for medical insurance I contacted him first, but he came up with the same policy I was trying to replace (Golden Rule, $400 per month, $5000 deductable). I purchased that policy in my late 30's and back then it was about $275 per month, $1000 deductable. As I went through my 40's it increased yearly and I increased the deductable to try to keep the monthly premium with in the budget. When I hit 50 it became unaffordable.What ever information I come up with on my current policy, I will pass along.HD
*When I started in '75 I paid Blue Cross for myself and all my carpenters (had 5 then), we also paid Workmen's Comp, 7 paid holidays, and I knew from Builder's Asscn surveys that we were about average. A couple of recessions later, a few years of the kinder , gentler, begger thy neighbor '80's, and that was all gone. Then the 87' stock market crash, followed by the banking crisis, and closing all the Credit Unions in RI and it was welcome to the 90's.I finally stabilized without going bankrupt, and there were some changes that helped. Licensing, Workmen's Comp reform, a better economy.I incorporated, took out Workmen's Comp, for me and my employees, have some Life Insurance that pays the premiums when I can't, but Health Insurance......Family Plan about $5000 / year. No way..Our family is covered under my wife's company and we pay the extra.The only thing that is going to change the situation is Federal legislation. There has to be universal coverage, if it's not universal, the weasals will always get out and then you can't compete with your business. Pretty soon, the only workers with Health Coverage will be Local, State, and Federal employees (who are taxpayers) but their premiums will be paid by all of the workers who don't have Health Coverage. So, if one of your two income family isn't a public school teacher or works for the university or the IRS or some such, then you ain't gonna have coverage.And you can say that Wild Bill screwed it up, but I think he's just the one who laid it on the table, it was the AMa and the Republican congress that stuck a fork in it.
*If we're going to discuss universal coverage (and I'm not sure what you mean by that exactly), I would be very interested in hearing from the Canadian contingent. How many, if any, of the Canadians would trade your health care system for ours?Rich Beckman
*Well Rich, I ain't Canadian, lets ask Gaby ?But , meantime, try it with the shoe on the other foot, lets take away ALL job related coverage. Teachers, unions, Gov.t Employees, CONGRESS, Multi-national corporations, you name it. Now take that $5000. per annum (hah ! bet Congress is worth $5000....more like a $50,000 policy) and give it back to them and let them pay taxes on the additional income. Who's gonna be covered then ?Wanna hear a pig squeal ? try talking CO-pay to someone who's been getting a free boat ride with someone else paying the freight.
*The Canadian (or UK, or whatever) isn't the only solution. I'm a liberal Democrat, and I'll be the first the say I was flabbergasted by the stupidity of the sprawling bureaucratic Clinton effort to reform health care. But this stupidity has nothing to do with whether reform is actually needed -- it is. The thing is, anyone who can get GROUP coverage gets a much better deal than any individual or small company can, partly because of the greater negotiating power of the larger entities and partly because the insurers need worry less that they are getting an usually high-risk group of insureds. The 'universal coverage' idea is that you draw everyone in, from 20 y.o. "Joe Sixpack" who doesn't care (but should) to the 60 y.o. blind diabetic, spreading the risk around.Don't forget, the insurers and their "Harry and Louise" ads were central to killing any chance of reform.Hey, how about campaign finance? I'm on a roll here...A tax note: Organize as a "C-corporation" and offer health insurance to your employees (including yourself); the premiums, whatever fraction the company provides, will then be paid 100% pretax dollars. This is one reason companies like to offer benefits -- the tax break means more bang for the buck than if the money were paid out as salary.
*Not sure where to butt in here - but - I'm with you mad dog on the NASE boys. Had 'em once years ago and had similar problems - looked at them again as a comparative thing and they don't reach the mark for the monies. NASE is not recommended from this point of view. Their coverages are VERY limited and there is a lot of doubletalk - leading you to believe you have "good" coverage. They smoke you with the "other bene's" they offer.
*Health insurance coverage is a real rat race to keep up with. I've been with ODS - an HMO provider - and was very content with their service and coverage, until........at the end of 1997 I was paying around $320/mo.....first of '98 it went up to $420/mo.......and now was recently notified that January 2000 my premiums will be over $700/mo. Can't afford it and have been shopping, but to no avail - there's nothing out there with coverage and affordability.
*You asked so hear goes.Here in Canada the majority of health care is free(certain things like cosmetic surgery are not). On the other side of the coin we can pay up to 50% income tax depending on what tax bracket you fall into. We also pay GST and QST which are a federal and provincial sales tax totalling about 15.5%. We pay this on just about everything. In other provinces besides Quebec it's lower.I don't know enough about the health care system in the U.S to comment on it but from the looks of it I see it like this. At approx. $400 a month, that comes out to $4800 a year. In Canada that $4800 a year would be buried inside the high income tax rate. Some people pay more some less. Basically our taxes pay for the health care system as a whole. I guess it's a good feeling not to worry about it but we are losing more and more doctors to the U.S because pay is better and taxes are less.I'm not going to Florida this year Mike! Sure do miss the warm weather.Gaby
*Well Rich:...........there it is , right from Gaby's mouth !Now, I wonder if that means he's fer it 'er agin it ?As usual it seems to depend on whose Ox is getting gored.Hey, I wonder if Al can use that , or I guess he already has.b What? ......me worry ?
*Mike,I agree, is Gaby's vote fer it 'er agin it? Still, that's one Canadian down! How many to go?Rich Beckman
*Andrew,I remember that Harry and Louise ad. But I remember even better the sendup that Bill and Hillary did. There they are on the couch with this huge open binder and Hillary asks Bill if he knows about the fact that if the health plan is adopted everyone is still going to die eventually. Bill says "No! Really?" She says "It says so right here on page 7358!" (or some such outrageous page number!). I forget where that aired, but it was funny.Rich Beckman
*The last time I was in Canada (April), I caught a radio report saying that many Canadians who needed medical help didn't want to wait in line at the clinics so they just dealt with small hurts on their own. The same program mentioned that more than 20% of the Canadian people work for the government.MD
*The real Bill & Hillary? I saw an ad or two mocking Harry and Louise -- we get a lot of oddball ads aimed at the policy types around D.C. that air nowhere else.
*Yes, the real Bill & Hillary! It still makes me laugh to think of it.Rich Beckman
*We just had our first daugher and just got our first insurance bill for a month of "family" coverage. $860.00!!!I guess I'm in the market too. I was talking to a Canadian once about health care. He was giving me the "you americans are so stupid" lecture about how much better the Canadian health care system is than ours. I told him that If we had the worlds greatest military super power to our south ready to defend our boarder, we'd have the money for health care too. (sorry Gaby)About the 50% in taxes? I think our highest bracket is 51%. I'm not sure as I'm not in that bracket :)I know that if you include govermnent fees, sales taxes, and income taxes; the average NJ resident pays 43% of their income to the government. I'm opposed to socialized medicine (or anything else) but for my 43%, I would like something more.
*Ryan - why are you against socialized medicine?
*The truth is that I'm probably against it because I'm against government involvement in almost everything. I realize that's not a very toughtful reason but it's the truth.I'm also against it for the same reason I'm against most all social programs. I believe that in order to have something, you need to work for it. I believe in the free market system where one person can work harder or smarter and become wealthier than his neighbor and have nicer stuff. I also believe in a system where someone who is just a little lazier or stupider has less stuff.I like this system because I hope that someday, If I try hard enough, learn enough, and apply it smart enough, I;ll be the guy that can buy the stuff.I said I'm against most social programs. I say most because as much as an anti-government, anti-social program knuckle head as I am, I don't mind programs that help those in need TEMPORARILY to get back on their feet. Anyone can fall on hard times and I don't mind helping. I of course prefer it be done on a smaller scale then our big government (like when we let my sister-in-law and two year old son move in for a while until she got back on her feet).I also don't want children to suffer because of the sins of the parents. I'll support programs (smart ones) that provide for children.Other than that, lets keep our government out of our lives as much as possible. If you think our insurance system is bad now, just wait until our congressmen find more ways to put money in their pockets by "fixing" health care. We are really better off on our own.
*Shoot! We pay $360/month for Blue Cross, relatively (to HMO's) generous coverage for a family of four but lots of billing errors.Highest fed bracket is 39.6%. Sales taxes range from 0-9%; state taxes up to 12%. Medicaid and Medicare comprise about 1/3 of the federal budget. We do have superior health care, in the sense that it is more readily available. You can see a doctor practically instantly, and also not wait a century for procedures.I don't want socialized medicine, but would like federally guaranteed (and required) access to reasonably-priced and nondiscriminatory health insurance. The free market can figure out the details. The structure of the system is a very complex and difficult problem; lets get our brightest minds working on it (most of whom are not in gov't).
*It bothers me to think there are folks denied adequate medical attention (or educational opportunities) based on their ability to pay. It just doesn't seem "civilized" to me.
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I plan on being self employed in the future. The cost of health care scares me. I have a family which makes it more expensive. the best quote I've gotten so far is 500 a month. Thats a weeks pay+ for me! I guess we won't eat that week. What are the best options out there and what do you guys use. Also what is your take on diability insurance. Right now I have workmans comp but I'm wondering if I should go for a disibility policy too. A little background on me. I'm 29, wife and one kid,and live in south Jersey. Thanks for all replies. I'll sit back, keep my mouth shut, listen and learn.