I recently purchased an old farm, and being a city-boy, am learning about septic and well systems.
I just had the septic replaced as the old system failed, and noticed at that time that there didn’t appear to be a connection to the barn, which has extensive plumbing and a bathroom (it was used for commercial honey production and had a candlemaking shop as well where they made beeswax candles).
In speaking to the previous owner today I found out that the waste runs out to a large above-ground tank. The tank apparently has some baffles and waste liquids are supposed to run out. Waste solids I’m not so sure about. He told me that the tank was sealed and that they never had to pump it out.
I’ve been searching the internet looking for mention of such a system and can’t find any. I’m not sure if it’s safe, legal, or even how it works. I also don’t know how it wouldn’t freeze as Minnesota gets pretty cold winters.
Has anybody seen a similar system? Know how they work? Know what they’re called? Know where I can find more info?
Thanks!! Brian
Replies
I would think that the tank would freeze and burst in the Minnesota winter....but apparently not.
"Never Pumped"...doesn't ring true to experience. The solid waste just doesn't dissappear....so I assume it is in the tank, and if the the tanks has been there a while I would assume it is full and the newer wastes are headed straight out the exit pipe.
Was it a "home-made" septic tank from salvage, then there would be no baffles, etc. just a large fermenting tank/settling chamber.
How many years has it been in operation?
Was it a commercially manufactured septic system? Or salvage?
Flush the barn toilets, let the sinks run, see where the water exits. Some older farm installations had "gray water" lines to daylight, and black water lines to a septic tank.
Might even talk to the local health dept about septic requirements. Ask for the oldest worker that is native to the county,see if he remembers, or if he can direct you to an "old timer"that might know.
.............Iron Helix
FWIW...
I once called the health dept on an illegal system installed on the first house I bought.
They inspected it when there was snow on the ground before purchase and ok'd it. It had been illegal for at least 10 years. When they came out after my call, they promply condemed the property and told me fix it immediatly or move.
Nice to get a 5 grand bill being a new homeowner... As a sidenote the replacement system also failed after 10 years. Seems the 100' long x 14' deep drain field was only 75' x 4'deep....and yes the health dept inspected that too.
Take any and all health dept info with a grain of salt. IMHO
Sure, ignore the Health Dept's advice, and screw up the enviroment even more.
great thinking.
"Sure, ignore the Health Dept's advice, and screw up the enviroment even more."Hube,That's funny. I read GEOB21's post in the exact opposite manner. I think his point was that the health departments have been known to incompetently pass systems that were not functional (it certainly has been known to happen here in Grant County, Indiana...though I have begun to suspect that the current individual actually knows a bit!)Rich BeckmanAnother day, another tool.
I sat beside my daughter right across the desk of the Wabash county health officer and listened to him say "there's nothing that comesout of a septic tank that can hurt you"...I mentioned hepatitus and left....
I was in there complaining about a homeowner running a drain from his septic tank directly to Paw-Paw Creek - -
took a couple of years, but we are rid of him...but that exemplifies some of the rural mind set - - I bet 75% of the septic in unincorporated Wabash county are hooked into the field drainage systems...."there's enough for everyone"
Your posts... real pearls of wisdom. Did you even read what you're replying to?
heh heh
He acts that way 'cause he didn't fill out anything in his profile.
be a profiler
For what it's worth:
I once helped remodel a vet clinic in Wisconsin. The place was originally a Wausau model home, and was expanded with kennels, ets in the rear. The original house waste was plumbed into a 5000 gal buried tank, and was designed to simply be pumped occasionally. There was a float inside the tank, and when the "stuff" got so high the alarm sounded, and the local hockyologist was called to simply pump it out. (There was no drain field for this system. There was simply a holding tank, and the pumper took it all.)
The new kennel runs were plumbed into a new septic system, tank and field, in the back yard. Seems there was some provision in the local code where a "standard system" could not be approved for HUMAN waste in this area, due to proximity to Lake Michigan, but that a conventional system was suitable for ANIMAL waste, as this was agricultural zoned property.
Don't know if this will be of any help, but I found it interesting that there were so many odd provisions of the Wisconsin code. And I had always thought that stuff was stuff, regardless of who, or what produced it. Silly me.....
Littledenny
and whats your excuse ? lol
You seem to have pretty big buffalo chip on your shoulder...ha, ha, haIf this tank was only for animal Don't worry, we can fix that later!
As Uncle Dunc reminded me.."please don't feed the trolls"..grains of salt and all that..
Spheramid Enterprises Architectural Woodworks
Repairs, Remodeling, Restorations.
It was said...."take any and all Health Dept info with a grain of salt..."
my reply to this ignorant statement still stands..." Ya,sure go ahead and screw up the enviroment"
The tank is newer (maybe last 5-7 years). I assumed the barn was tied into the house septic, which had failed. The county required that we put in a new system, which we did last week. It was at that time that I realized that there was no connection to the barn.
The tank was commercially produced, and has some sort of "baffle system" that drains liquids out and does ?? with the solids. I understand that solids don't just disappear. This thing makes no sense to me.
I have no intentions of screwing up the environment, but also don't need trouble from the county. I want to figure out what I'm dealing with first, and then I'll get it corrected.
A typical gravity system here has an underground tank with 2 chambers--the partition between is called a baffle. Waste enters the first chamber. There's a window thru the partition a bit below the top of the tank, so that liquid can pass thru into the second chamber, the theory being that solids either float or sink and will not be at the level of the window. From the second chamber there's an exit pipe to the drainfield. Sounds like maybe your metal tank has all of the above except maybe the drainfield, and it might have some form of that too. Look for an area where the grass is growing really tall! In areas where the soil drains well it does not take much to make a drainfield. I could dump 10,000 gallons of water in my backyard and it would be gone within 5 minutes. You're in farm country too and you may have similar.
Tanks need pumping occasionally. In these parts we have exactly one septic guy, and he's the most knowledgeable guy on these systems by far, since he opens the lids and looks inside them every day. Everyone here relies on him, and he says tanks need pumping every 3-5 years. I'm sure your metal tank will need pumping sooner or later. Get ahold of the septic service and have them bring out their 'sludge judge' to see if you need a pumpout.
David,
That sounds a lot like what we have. The liquids drain into one of my hay fields, which is at least a 100 yards from the well at the bottom of a hill. And you're right about the soil. It doesn't get much better than what we have. Can't wait to put something in it besides septic waste. Our county requires septic mounds in almost all circumstances now, which is not popular. They checked our soil and said no need for a mound, which is a point in favor of the county for reasonableness.
We have one main septic guy in our area (the guy who put in my new septic last week), and I have been trying to get ahold of him to check it out. I assume that any tank would need pumping as well, but the tank is sealed (??).
I also have no clue why it wouldn't all just freeze into a big humanwastesicle.
Regards, Brian
Do not contact the health dept. direct.
Get your data without them knowing who you are.
Cardinal rule here: THE BUILDING INSPECTOR IS NOT YOUR FRIEND!
You plan on doing things right so no need for their interference. They'll come out there and slap a tag on you demanding prompt do it nows on something been that way for as long as you mentioned and cost you real$s.
Mess up the environment. ROAR! Ya right, little farm deal out in the country and some folk have got to treat it like someone's pumping raw sewage on a downtown street corner.
Gimmie a break.
Brian,
The description of this "system" doesn't make any more sense to me than to you or others here. Maybe I'll end up learning something, but for now......it just doesn't make sense and leaves me with more questions than answers.
If this is a large above ground tank then can we asssume there's a substantial drop in grade from the barn that allows the tank to set above ground and still have the inlet pipe enter near the top of this "large" tank? Seems to me too that it would freeze as hard as a rock in the winter, eventually closing off the outlet side and probably bursting the tank.
I do note that he said that THEY never had to pump it. That doesn't mean it never needs pumping.
And I wonder where the outlet water goes. Is there a separate drainfield for this tank or......??????
And where, pray tell, is the well in relation to the outlet field of this tank and its contents? There's a minimum distance requirement to insure that your potable water does not become contaminated and that minimum distance will be dependant upon what the soil conditions are. In this immediate area that minimum distance is 50'. Your minimum distance might be greater than this, but I"m sure it isn't less.
Around these parts any work done on septic systems in the last 20+ years has all been recorded with the county health department and that information is available for viewing at their office. This info is complete with drawings of what is installed and where it is installed. Therefore this drawing should contain the info about if there is a drainfield and where it is.
You could presumably go down there and ask to see the info on your property. If they question why you'd like to see the info, tell them it's because you intend to put in a fence and you want to make sure you don't dig a posthole into a drainfield area.
Edit: You can't always count on the competency of county health inspectors. When we bought this place there was stil an old cistern about 10' outside the back door. The septic tank at that time was about 50' out the back door. Before the sale of the property would be sanctioned, the septic and the well had to be inspected and a potable water sample sent down state.
The health department sent two guys out here to do the "look/see". They immediately confused the cistern with the septic tank and told me I didn't know what I was talking about when I tried to tell them otherwise. (Both the cistern and the septic tank had lids you could lift and see inside) They then told me that the sale couldn't go thru as the well was too close to the septic. Huh? I had to prove to these idiots that the cistern was not the septic by flushing the toilet inside and having one of them positioned at each tank in question. When the water arrived at the septic tank, the guy says...."Well, I'll be damned".
Now ya woulda thought that the identifying odor from the septic tank and the lack of it from the cistern woulda told 'em right off the bat...... which was which. And when was the last time you saw an underground cistern placed 40+' from the house where the water is collected and intended to be used? Both these guys were in their late 50s and had been the inspectors for the county health department for 20+ years. Thankfully, both of them are now gone and we've got a great guy in there that's super easy to work with while still maintaining the health codes. He lacks the smug officious nature frequently worn by these folks. Hope you have one like that,too. It makes life SO much easier.
Knowledge is power, but only if applied in a timely fashion.
Edited 12/9/2004 11:25 am ET by GOLDHILLER
Edited 12/9/2004 11:31 am ET by GOLDHILLER
Edited 12/9/2004 11:39 am ET by GOLDHILLER
GOLDHILLER,
"If this is a large above ground tank then can we asssume there's a substantial drop in grade from the barn that allows the tank to set above ground and still have the inlet pipe enter near the top of this "large" tank?"
Your assumption about grade is correct. The plumbing is above the tank.
"Seems to me too that it would freeze as hard as a rock in the winter, eventually closing off the outlet side and probably bursting the tank."
I agree. A big crapsicle. I need to figure out how it's been working all these years.
"I do note that he said that THEY never had to pump it. That doesn't mean it never needs pumping."
I agree that solid waste doesn't disappear. But the tank is sealed other than the inet and outlet for liquids.
"And I wonder where the outlet water goes. Is there a separate drainfield for this tank or......??????
And where, pray tell, is the well in relation to the outlet field of this tank and its contents? There's a minimum distance requirement to insure that your potable water does not become contaminated and that minimum distance will be dependant upon what the soil conditions are. In this immediate area that minimum distance is 50'. Your minimum distance might be greater than this, but I"m sure it isn't less. "
It drains into one of our hay fields, substantially below the well and 100 yards away. Our distance requirement is 50' as well.
"Around these parts any work done on septic systems in the last 20+ years has all been recorded with the county health department and that information is available for viewing at their office."
In this area work is done without much county involvement (I live in a city with no services, and we are a distant, red-headed stepchild to the county which oversees us). Folks just do their own thing (which results in some pretty interesting plumbing and electric... and septic in this case). I'm ok with that to a degree, but I'm not ok with anything substandard or hazardous (which is commonplace here). As an example, the old septic went to a huge holding tank. Once a year when the fields were plowed, they would drag the tank out with a tractor, dump it over, and plow it under. Remember that next time you are eating your veggies...
Regards, Brian
Hmmmmmm. Totally sealed, huh? Interesting, indeed.Now the bacterial activity inside would create X amount of heat and the water that enters would add (or maybe subtract) some BTUs, but one would think that the "contents" would eventually succumb to the sub-zero temps of a Minnesota winter. Maybe your tank as a thick layer of insulation on the interior walls. But where do the solids go? If they build up deep enough in there, they would presumably and eventually exit via the outlet pipe. Or they would/could presumably clog the outlet pipe. If that happens, you should get a "clue" in the barn. LOL We have similar tanks around here, but they are not sealed. The top is open and they hold hundreds of thousands of gallons of livestock manure. Called Slurry Stores, they are emptied periodically throughout the year via the infamous "honey-wagon". <G> They look like shorter versions of the big blue Harvestores. And even these will develop a crust of ice around the sides in extreme cold. You definitely have something there that I've never seen, encountered, nor heard of before. Ya know, if these folks had used a 1942 Chevy for the holding tank, you could just roll the windows down or open the door if a problem developed. Edit: As per normal, my head grabs onto soemthing after I hit that post button. I'm wondering if this tank isn't a secondary septic settlement tank. It would then take many years to fill with goodies. If there is no drainfield proper, but the oulet pipe just dumps out onto the hayfield below, I wonder if there's a primary septic tank upstream for this underground.......and you just haven't found it yet. That would be the tank that would accept the vast bulk of the solids, naturally. Then again, we would still have the same potential for the freezing of the exposed tank.Sigh. Don't know. Wish I had an answer for you, but no such luck. Does it appear that either the inlet or outlet pipe could be easily removed from this tank to pump it out?Knowledge is power, but only if applied in a timely fashion.
Edited 12/10/2004 11:30 am ET by GOLDHILLER
would eventually succumb to the sub-zero temps of a Minnesota winter
May just be that the water volume, as a heat sink, worked just well enough to "carry" through the cold. Consider that the attached plumbing would have been all "high flow," that's many gallons of water somewhere in the "room temperature' range. That's going to be anywhere from 60º to 70º on average. A hundred or so gallons of 80º shower water would likely keep the "base" temperature above freezing.
Consider, too, "how" the tank would freeze. It would "want" to freeze at it's coldest extremes, which would be the top in the air bubble, and at the bottom where there's some insulating "sediment." The tank is also exposed to the sun, so there's likely some passive heating.
Now, all that being said, I can't imagine using a metal tank above ground in Minnesota. Hmm, just now, I have a vague recollection that the bases in Antarctica all use above ground collection--but that might be a wrong recollection.Occupational hazard of my occupation not being around (sorry Bubba)
Good points.And if helped along by a few inches of insulation, might just survive.The metal and concrete cattle tanks used here during the summer have to be shut down and drained in favor of the smaller heated waterer units come the colder temps because those big tanks freeze over....but good. Then again, they aren't insulated in anyway, don't have a sealed top and the cattle have a hard time drinking thru 6-10" of ice on the top so new new water is added.Heated by the sun??? You mean to tell me that the sun shines in Minnesota during the winter? Maybe I should move up there then. LOLSun shines here a total of about four days in four months during the winter. Ugh.Knowledge is power, but only if applied in a timely fashion.
about four days
Yep, must have been one of those days, the one time I was there <g>
Missed the other three <G>.Occupational hazard of my occupation not being around (sorry Bubba)
First off, inspect the tank for any sort of manufacturer's label. If it's something manufactured for this purpose then you should be able to contact the manufacturer and get some info on it.
Since this is associated with a farm operation, contact a local dairy co-op or whatever and ask for the names of some plumbers/septic people who might install this sort of thing. (I would think this would be similar to a milk house septic system.) One of them could likely evaluate the legitimacy of the thing (and would probably do it for free, on the off chance that you'd throw some work his way in the future).
The system is definitely suspicious, but not absolutely clearly wrong. A septic tank has quite a thermal mass, generates a fair amount of heat internally (when properly "energized") and, especially if it were insulated with 2-3 inches of foam, would be unlikely to freeze to any great degree in an average southern/central MN winter (especially those we've had recently). The issue would be the inflow and outflow pipes, which should be insulated where they're above grade.
(Or actually the system could be a "summer cabin" one that's designed to freeze somewhat in the winter, on the assumption that it's unused then.)
In terms of cleanout, the tank should definitely be pumped out now, and, assuming casual use of the potty, every 5-8 years
Re building inspectors and health dept inspectors, they can vary all over the place in terms of rigor, reasonableness, and basic honesty. What you encounter most often in rural areas is a rather casual carelessness. When moving closer to the suburbs you run the risk of encountering true dishonesty, where a few pieces of green will cause various problems to be overlooked, and failure to provide any green will result in an excessively rigorous inspection. In urban areas the inspectors are most likely to be excessively hard on DIYers, especially if it's a union area. But the vast majority of inspectors are honest, even if they do let their good buddies have a "bye" now and then.
You also have to be aware that, with a septic system, you're dealing with BOTH regular plumbing inspectors and the health dept people in most areas. You will need the approval of BOTH to be "legal", and it's quite possible that one will say a system is OK and another not. I suspect that often the health dept guys will be the most hard-nosed.
Brian,
I am a professional engineer and septic designer. That's MY day job.
Having written that, I am not going to give you a "professional" opinion on what I think of your septic system, or lack thereof. Whatever I write here is worth what you pay for it.
I think the best thing for you to do is find the guy in your area who pumps septic tanks and does waste service for a living, and who's been doing it the longest. Have him come out and look at it, and figure out what you have and how to deal with it. He should have the tools to figure it out if the county doesn't.
For every ten septic systems I've seen, there's ten different ways to make them "interesting". I have not yet seen an aboveground tank, although I have seen and designed a lot of aboveground leach fields. I suspect that your "system" in a past life, may have been a holding tank for liquid and solid animal manure and was converted to a "septic tank" by a prior owner. Not legal in any place I know of, but probably not unlikely either. I also doubt that your tank would turn into a giant crapsicle unless it remined unused for a long period of time. Microbial activity and the occasional introduction of a warmer toilet flush should keep the system warm enough to stay liquid.
Also, if you'd like an opinion as to legality and function, ask the septic pumper who HE would recommend for a local wastewater specialist (i.e. certified engineer or septic designer) who can look at your system. I get many of my referrals from the guys who know that a flush beats a full house, every time.
"a flush beats a full house"The porta potty folks I use are named Ace, that's their motto. I'm bettin' on 'em LOL Don't worry, we can fix that later!
You said this was a farm. Maybe the farmer pumped it out and used it on his fields. But then again did you know that John Deere stands behind all of its equipment except its spreaders
Edited 12/10/2004 8:35 pm ET by Nyukx3fan
Here are a few points - I don't know how directly they apply to your situation,
The bactria digest the solids, turning them into a solution of liquid waste. The reason for pumping a tank is those klinds of solids that will not ditgesst, such as dirt from clothes in the laundry, or girt filer used in the detergent, or paint solids when latex paint brushes are waashed in the slop sink, etc. but normal waste for a septic system is all digestable eventually.
Also effectuing things is the speed with which the bacteria acrts in rtelation to the rate at which solids are introduced to the system. If you have one designed for a thousand gallons a day and you only add fifty or a hundred gallons a day, it will pretty well last forever without geting ahead of the bacteria.
The bacterial action will produce heat as a by-product. one of the best ways to find a septic this time of year here is to look for the square spot of melted snow on the lawn.
As for overflow, I am womndering if this metal tank has rusted pinholes letting just enuf out to weep into the soil below it to keep it from overflowing. Even if highly galvanized, the fluids would be highly acidic and eat away at it quicly
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