I am right in the middle of buying a home and during the inspection it is found out that the leach field is failing. County inspector fails it so owner must get a new system engineered and apply for the permit. Then we will get some bids, negotiate about who is going to pay for the new system and if we agree we buy the house, or else walk and get our earnest money back.
The question.
Engineer designs a pressure system. He is relocating the field to a different area on the property which is now above the tank. He is adding a 500 gallon lift system to the all ready existing 1,000 gallon (non dosing) tank to pump the water to the new field.
The problem is that where he wants to run the pipes from the lift system to the field is not completely up hill. The initial run of pipe, which is 2″ pipe, drops an easy 10′ in elevation in a run of 50-75′ and then goes uphill to the field which is about 150′ more away and is probably 40′ up in elevation. The system will not naturally drain back.
The house is at 8,000 ft in colorado so I am of course concerned about the water in the pipe freezing. I ask the engineer about the situation and his response was “yeah it looks close, the excavator will probably take care of it or we can just add some insulation around the pipe” I ask how deep that pipe will be and he says “Oh about a foot”
The problem is that in order to really run the pipe uphill the whole way the pipe would need to go under a larger portion of the driveway and also have to go through a retaining wall that is about 10′ high. Right now he wants to go around the retaining wall and take the path of least resistence etc…..
A friend said that there is no way the design will pass inspection with out it being able to naturally drain back competely.
I have no idea. I am going to contact another septic engineer and also talk to the plan checker at the county health department.
Any advise on if the pressure system can be installed so it doesn’t naturally drain back and if so how do you deal with the water in the pipe so it doesn’t freeze?
Its amazing how when one major thing shows up in the inspection how it completely screws up the whole process. Another thorn in my side is that the realtor didn’t even know that they HAD to get the engineering done as well as the permit in order for the house to close escrow. I found this out on my own.
Replies
take a walk, fast, grab your money and run, now.
The house, regardless how nice, can't be worth that much. And I'm not talking money, here. You're gonna sweat this thing for years. Ditto Brownbagg, run, don't walk, to the nearest off-ramp.
That's pretty far outside a realtors bag, I wouldn't hold it against them.
Why did the system fail? Do perc tests in the new field look a lot better? In my experience most failed septic fields tend to be because they need perimeter drainage, the sheet draining water moving across the leach field keeps the ground saturated and needs intercepted before hitting the field.
Buy I agree with the why make it your problem advice unless it is a really good deal.
remodeler
That doesn't sound like a fix I'd go for either. If you like the house, but don't like the engineer, you could buy the house and get a different engineer. <G>
Seriously, there are many good approaches you can take, a failed field need not be a deal breaker.
It's really not that big of a problem, nothing that $10,000 or $15,000 won't fix. If it's an otherwise great house, maybe you can get that out of the seller.
Check out http://www.norweco.com for some ideas.
DRC
Sorry, dude--I design and install at least one or two of these every year or three and in a climate as cold as yours. The frost line there has got to be between 4 and 5 feet down; a little insulation around a pipe with standing water in it at 1' depth is just asking for trouble. That engineer is too glib; he knows it's not gonna work but he's just hoping to get his fee and get away before you find that out.
Don't get mixed up in this mess unless you're willing to chuck that engineer and spend the dough to do it right. If the current owner is forced to do this work to sell the place, you can bet he'll do the minimum necessary. Is that what you want to be buying?
Dinosaur
'Y-a-tu de la justice dans ce maudit monde?
There is nothing inherently wrong with the house, it just needs a new leach field.
They have the bobcat up there right now and will be digging test holes at the new leach field site.
The homeowner will not be putting in the system, I will but he is required to get the plans and the permit or else the county will not let the house chang ownership. Once the engineering is done we will get bids and then see if we can come to some agreement. We have talked some and the owner has all ready stated he will pay for a majority of the costs but who knows what will happen once we get bids. All I am interested in is finding out what the true cost will be, which the contractors will not bid without an engineered plan. If the plan is not to my liking I can redo it, pull another permit and then put the field in. Of course I would rather save that money and use the current plan but only if it is done right. I am going to contact the county plan checker as well as another septic engineer and beleive me, I will be the squecky wheel. The engineer is lazy but once he knows I am watching over his shoulder he then does a good job. We went through this when he first did the county inspection and tried to tell me that he could probably save the field by just feeding a new line from the tank to the other side of the field. I did my research, let him know and then he did the right thing and failed the whole system. He wants to get off easy but he has a lot of liability because he is the county certified inspector on this job and I make sure he knows that I am expecting that everything he does will be up to snuff or else he is liable. I don't say he is liable of course but he knows it. He is just lazy and was expecting the usual, yeah the system is just fine and passes and now give me my money. I bet you anthing that when he does the plan he will make sure the system has the proper drain back after I find out what the code is. The county health department is also very strict about septics and I know if I let the county know what is going on they will make sure during plan check to look for it. The inspectors are very helpful here and really work with the home owners. Much different then my last house.
At the very least I get my money and just bring in my own engineer and redo the plan to my liking.
When the current owners bought the house 7 years ago there was all ready a problem with the current system and it was only 5 years old then. the same engineering company that is doing the plans now, inspected it back then, I have a copy of the report. Back then though, the county didn't require an inspection and the current owners believed some weird excuse from the person they bought it from.
What is happening is that the system is not a dosing system and the first part of the field is competely saturated and fluid is surfacing. The owner tried to tell me it was ground water from a spring. I had my inspector do a dye test and it was positive. They dug a whole down to the pipe on the other end of the field and it is just starting to saturate showing standing water at the bottom of the hole. The engineer has said that the original field should of never even been put here but the county wasn't that involved at all back then like it is now. He also thinks the piping has settled and it wasn;t level to begin with and it isn't a dosing system, so that is why it failed so soon right at the beginning of the field.
If the owner is willing to pay, which we think they are, then we are going to take the home. It is a really nice home, the current owners have put 45k (receipts where verfied) in to it in the last two years (house was built in 91), upgrading it. It is one of the nicest homes in the subdivision, but we are getting it for the same cost as any other home in the area. Plus we will have a brand new septic system. The owners want horses so they are buying a horse property in the area.
We have been looking for six months and there was only two homes that we liked. We had the other one under contract but there was an easment on the property and the neighbors leach field was on the property and it blocked access to the well and the leach field so that you couldn't get a truck to the well or equipment to the leach field with out destroying the neighbors field. We passed on it and then got this house under contract.
I can't believe our badluck.
We will see what happens. I can still back out even after all the egineering is done and get my earnest money back.
this one will bite you, leech field do not fail in 13 years. It sounds like the ground is not suitable to begin with. Run.
A leach field can fail in 13 years if the system isn't properly maintained (pumped when needed) and they put all sorts of non-s**t stuff down the drain.
I donot like the sounds of the repairs as you have listed
I do not know if available in your climate, but around here (pacific nw) where we have lots of water and the perc tsets fail, then the owners can put in a sand filter system.
The life of one is dependent on what junk you flush down the toilet or garbage disposal ( not recomended) but they will last about 15 years before you have to dig out all the sand filter medium and replace
Anyway, again around here, they can dig out your leach line area and put in a sand filter system
cost comparions for this area
a new standard septic, 1500 gallon tank, 450 feet of line $6-7k
a new sand filter system 15-18k
true a major difference but owners can build and place a house on a non standard approved property or near a lake, river or...............
so, if you love the house, area etc, then sometimes you have to bite the bullet and spend a little
Hit these two links, you will find more info than anyone would ever want to know. The folks at Morgantown State really know their sh!t.
http://www.nesc.wvu.edu/nsfc/
http://www.epa.gov/owm/mab/smcomm/nsfc.htm
Again, you have a lot of proven options, and this is not a difficult problem. A little expensive, maybe, but not difficult.
I'd start with a new engineer.
DRC
I think you can make a system work for the house you want to buy. You have been given good advice by many of the posters about ways to do this.
We have an engineer who has helped us with a number of systems but I have found that I get very good advice from the guys who are actually going to put the system in. Sometimes our engineer does not carefully listen to all our concerns and when we get the drawings they have problems with them. They will work but may have site or cost problems associated with them. After consulting with our excavators we sometimes have to ask for changes in the plans to address those problems and still give us a good system. Fortunately they have worked together in the past and have a lot of mutual respect, so that nobody's toes are stepped on. The engineer has always helped us out with the necessary changes and usually at a very minimal extra charge.
alot of my business has to do with designing septic systems. But I am also in southern usa, different material. What I have read so far. This one is going to bite you. Run
>What is happening is that the system is not a dosing system and the first part of >the field is competely saturated and fluid is surfacing.
dosing systems are not the magic answer, the field gets hit all at once and then dries out but if the field is saturated for other reasons it won't help....
why is the field saturated? bad perc characteristics, excessive water draining to it, natural springs?
and how does the new field fix that?
remodeler
The calculation of a leech field are based on a saturated state. Its a worst case sistution. when the field has as much water as in a 100 year rain it should still perc. This is why in a prober desisgn system leech field do not go bad and tanks do not need pumping.
The family house was build in 1972 and its tank as never been pump. It just not needed around here.
I agree with BROWNBAGG. A good septic system lasts a long, long time.
People who have their's pumped out every 3-5 years have a problem. Usually, it's dosing the system with something that kills bacteria. Occasionally, it's a leach field laid out where the soil won't perc in the first place.
NEVER drive ANYTHING over the leach field. Except maybe a small lawnmower.
I have to disagree. Failure to pump regularly is a common cause for failure.
The stuff that gets into a septic tank is never 100% digested -- there is always some residue. This normally settles in the tank, but if the tank fills up with sediment then it gets into the leach field and clogs it.
Of course, the frequency that pumping is needed depends on a number of things -- size of the tank, size of the family, how much non-c**p goes down the drain, etc. Probably the composition of the soil also figures in -- coarse sandy soils will likely tolerate a lot more sediment before they clog.
I appreciate all the advice.
It seems like some people are associating that since the existing field has failed that the new field will be no good too. No one knows for sure why it failed, lots of ideas, but the engineer feels the new location will be good and they have dug the test holes and are doing the soil tests/perc tests etc....The new field is about 250' away from the existing one. Everything is being done and the county has to approve the plans and construction. This was not the case when the original field was put in, the county wasn't involved back then.
The house is on a south facing slope. The tank is on the south side and the pipe goes down hill about 12' then turns 90degrees into the 12'x60' field. The field is on a pretty steep slope. Right where that elbow is, there is a 5'dia spot where the fluid just flows to the surface. Everyone thought that there was a break in the pipe so they looked with a camera and everything looked ok. Then they thought maybe there was ground water. So they dug a long trench above the field and it was dry. The also dug a hole at the other end of the field and it is getting water, but only when large amounts of water are used all at once (ie shower)and the ground is pretty saturated. I think that there was problems right from the beginning because the field was failing after only 6 years. Who knows, it might of been failing from day one. Back then the county wasn't involved. Other houses next to this one are not having any problems that I can see.
My concern is that the routing of the pipe from the new lift system tank to the new field is not continously uphill so the system will not have complete natural drain back so there will be water left in the low end of the piping. The new field is on a fairly flat piece of the property.
As long as the tests come back OK then I am not concerned about the new field not working properly. My concern is the water left in the pipe leading to the field and is there a code approved method to deal with it or must it have complete natural drain back. On monday I will be talking to the county plan checker as well as calling another septic engineer. Then I will be talking to the homeowner and the current septic engineer and letting them know that I want the system designed with natural drainback and how is this going to be accomplished on the house site.
If I don't take the house then the homeowner will have to put the system in for himself so it is in his best interest to make sure the engineer does a good job also. He is not as savvy and is not doing as much research like I am but I will let him know everything I have found out once I talk to the county and another engineer. There has to be a solution, the question is what is that solution, how much will it cost and who is going to pay that will determine what I will do. Right now everyone is just trying to do a half #### job to just "get it done and sold" and I will not accept that. If I don't accept it then the homeowner will have 5k all ready into the inspection and engineering of a system that won't work for him so I believe once he realizes what is happening he will also want everything to be done right. The homeowner is just taking the engineers word with out question.
Edited 6/6/2004 5:18 pm ET by ClimbOn
Is this an in-ground pressure system that the engineer is proposing? Do you have a better site on the property that you could install a mound system instead of an in-ground system that would allow you to get drain-back in your piping? Depending on the local soil morphology, a mound system might be a better choice and give you more possible locations to site it.
The problem is that the septic tank and the main sewer line are coming out right in the middle of the house on the down hill or south side. Below that there is just alittle bit of property where the existing field is and then the switch back of the drive way and then the street. Any new field would have to be on either the side or behind the house and it is all uphill from the tank.
The issue is if the system has to have 100% natural drain back then how do you route the pipe around the house OR what are code approved ways to prevent the water from freezing in the low spot of the pipe.
If it must be all uphill then the pipe will have to go under 30' of driveway and then up a 10' retaining wall. I doubt this can be done and is the reason the engineer is routing the pipe the way he is to begin with. If this can't be done and it must be uphill the whole way because there are no code approved ways to deal with preventing the water from freezing, then the only other solution is to dig out the existing field and replace it with some kind of sand system that is gravity fed.
There are several potential sites for the field but they are all uphill from the existing tank.
Tomorrow I should have the answer on what is allowed by code and that should clear it all up. I have no problem giving the house up if that is what should be done, I am just having troubles getting a straight answer from anyone. If I can't get all the answers and I have to make a choice, then I will just back out of the sale of the house.
Sounds like you don't actually have a full septic system -- no leach field.
Do you have soil core samples? The problem could be simple: a layer of hardpan. Someone more familiar with the soils in your area could tell you what to look for.
Multiple perc tests, in different areas? What did they tell you? Anybody who "engineers" a new system without this information, or puts water pipes above the frost line, in an area with your specific problems, isn't worth talking to. IMHO.
ClimbOn,
You're talking about a 2" steel pipe. A couple of hundred will punch that under the drive without disturbing it.
This pipe can be exposed to the elements where cost is a considerable factor.
Putting the pipe under and behind the retaining wall coud be a problem unless it is a solid masonry unit.
Hard direction changes should be avoided or have a cleanout. The base of the concrete retaining wall would be a good place to expose the pipe and cleanout.
You have 150' of run. Cleanouts should be spaced less than 100' apart. 2 cleanouts.
Looking at the lot from here in the middle of Missouri, I'ld say that the prefered route should cost less than $1000 more than the currently planned one.
SamT
Actually, the retaining wall, is a bunch of huge granite boulders (2'x3' or so) dry stacked on top of each other. It is a very common thing done around here. They also do a lot of drystack walls with smaller granite rocks (6-10" dia.).
Climber,
Mechanically speaking, there is nothing wrong with running the pipe up the face of the boulders, esthetically, yer on yer own.
Freezing is not a prob with full drainback.
The outfit that drills under the drive may be able to drill under them stones?????????
SamT
I think they can take some of the boulders down, route the pipe and then put them back up. It will cost more but that is exactly what I want to find out.
Just an update, called another engineer. He said he wasn't exactly sure what the county would say but that he personally would never design a lift system without proper drain back.
Called county and after talking for a little bit he is going to call the engineer and find out what he is doing, why not design it with the proper drain back etc.....
Everyone thinks I am a big pain in the butt but I just tell them that all I want is to know that the system is designed correctly and that it can be installed as designed and what will it cost. Is that so much to ask for??? Of course not and everyone knows it. It is times like these when you realize that it doesn't matter how things are suppose to be done, people just like to sweep things under the rug and pass the buck, even if what they are doing will make them liable if something wrong happens.
Thanks again for all the advice. I will let you know how it all turns out.
Well guys, the owner boxed me in and wasn't willing to extend the deadline to get the plans done so we could get a bid to make a decision and after talking to the engineer again and what was the worst case scenario, which wasn't good, we backed out.
On to the next one.