Hi-
I’ve just recently purchased a house and I’m curious how folks maintain their own systems.
System is a 1000 gal. cement hold tank with a 15 x 30 leach field.
I’ve heard a couple different theories on how to keep the system “healthyâ€â€¦
The building inspector mentioned a packet of yeast per month is what I need and to avoid the commercially available chemicals. While a septic removal company mentioned using a product called “Zepâ€.
Thanks -Mike
Replies
The septic companies love to tell you to use Rid-X and similar "treatments" - it means more work for them. What that treatment stuff does is break down solids in the tank and basically emulsify your waste stream. All those suspended solids don't settle out or float - they head straight into your leach field and clog it up. Your health inspector is on a better track - some yeast won't hurt the system, but you don't really need it either.
Here's recommendations I make to people with new or replacement systems:
One way I have seen homeowners "jump-start" a brand new septic system (which you don't need to do) is put a 25 pound bag of really cheap dog food in the tank. It's a food source for the bacteria. I don't dismiss or endorse the practice, but it seems like it wouldn't hurt.
FWIW, I do this for a living, but here, you get what you pay for...
Jon (PE)
I have seen many systems go over thirty years without being pump. It all depends on the soila nd what you put in the system, I wish my health dept would let me have a grey water system. . a complete different sytem for the washing machines and bath water. My parent house was built in 72 and that system has never been pump, and working fine. But do keep grease out of it.
IMHO don't dump any chemicals in it, and avoid having a garbage disposal.
Built my own septic system in '72, never been pumped, never had a problem, 2 compartment 1200 gal tank, 7 line 30 ft by 50 ft field with distribution box.
Did check the tank a few years back ('92 or so) just before it was outlawed to pump your own tank - only 4 inches of sludge in the bottom, hand shoveled about 1 ft thick of non-decomposed cellulose (assume from TP) off the top and shut it up. No grease trap and no evidence of grease in the tank, so am not too worried about normal grease quantities. 2nd compartment was 100% liquid. Have heard some detergents (e.g Tide) tend to leave big white clumps in the tank, we use mostly liquid laundry detergents.
BTW, at the same time, my old engineer boss hand pumped his own tank out onto the garden - it was 40 years old and about a foot of sludge in the bottom, he had to get in and use a shovel by hand at the end - he said that once you've been made to do jobs in a #### forced labor camp, you're not squeamish about anything.
PS: interesting that prospero/taunton edited out the name of the political group responsible for Buchenwald, et. Al. -
Edited 6/7/2005 3:18 pm ET by JUNKHOUND
Do any of you have experience and/or opinions of some of the gravel-less leachfield systems, like Eljen’s In-Drain…
<!----><!---->
http://www.eljen.com/Pages/In-Drain/Idmain.html
<!---->
EZFlow
<!---->
http://www.ezflowlp.com/frames/frproducts.html
<!---->
or a plastic chamber system like Infiltrator?
<!---->
http://www.infiltratorsystems.com/
<!---->
I like the idea of the reduced labor to install these systems, as well as the possibility that the field might be longer lived before it saturates or clogs.
"Listen, strange women lying in ponds distributing swords is no basis for a system of government."Jon
No experience with the EZ-Flow, although the concept is solid and I like it. I do not like the Infiltrator or the In-Drain systems.
A similar concept to the EZ-Flow is the Presby Enviro-Septic pipe, which I have been designing a few of. It's good enough for me, as an engineer - I'm using it for my own septic system.
http://www.presbyenvironmental.com/
Thanks for the feedback! I'll check into the Presby.
"Listen, strange women lying in ponds distributing swords is no basis for a system of government."Jon
They've been using Infiltrator systems around here for about 5 years now and my "neighbor" put one in last year. Installation costs were exactly the same per lineal foot as a conventional trench and rock system because the plastic chambers aren't all that cheap and getting the trench floor "just so" is a necessity if the units are to engage one another properly. One of the potential downsides to installing these is that you can't drive anything very heavy over them......even once. Riding lawnmower is okay, but even driving a pickup truck over 'em isn't recommended and the company warns you concerning this..........if you read the fine print.Edit: I brought the weight issue to the guy's attention when he asked for my opinion on which system to install. I warned him because of the proposed location of the field (actually designated after soil tests by the health department) and the location of his windbreak which will have to be removed within ten years. There's no way to use heavy equipment to aid in that removal without traversing the field numerous times. He installed the Infiltrator system anyway. Go figure.
Knowledge is power, but only if applied in a timely fashion.
Edited 6/8/2005 9:33 pm ET by GOLDHILLER
Infiltrators here cost 2/3 of a traditional system. That's due to less required leach field length. Last one I was involved with was $2800. As far as traffic, it gets frequent passenger vehicle traffic, with no problems to date. You do need a competent backhoe guy. I drove my 4500 lb rubber tire tractor over it with zero effect. Pretty sure a full-size backhoe, around 1600 (edit: lost a zero, 16000) lbs, was also driven over it.
The septic guy I routinely recommend uses almost nothing else. Our health dept is equally favorably impressed.
CYA apparently at play here. You too? Per lineal foot costs don't count for anything. Only total cost.
PAHS Designer/Builder- Bury it!
Edited 6/8/2005 9:32 pm ET by VaTom
You are correct, sir. Bad choice of words on my part.Correction: Total cost was the same as conventional trench and rock system. Comforting to know that maybe heavier weights can be accommodated. Might be somewhat dependant upon soil types and depth over those chambers. I'll let ya know when I see one collapse. <G>The guys that did the install are the cheapest guys around these parts and have been in the biz for many, many years. Great on the backhoe and all that. Other local installers wanted as much as 20% more to do the Infiltrator install.I think the reason the guy choose the Infiltrator (from what I could gather) was because he felt he'd get less compaction on the lawn without all those trips to bring in the rock. Didn't matter much in the end because he deep-tilled up the entire area anyway to reseed.) It certainly wasn't cause he lacked the space for the conventional trench and rock.Knowledge is power, but only if applied in a timely fashion.
Edited 6/8/2005 9:50 pm ET by GOLDHILLER
The guys that did the install are the cheapest guys around these parts and have been in the biz for many, many years. Great on the backhoe and all that. Other local installers wanted as much as 20% more to do the Infiltrator install.
Makes sense now. Infiltrator systems here cost substantially less to install. Certainly not due to the choice of contractor(s). The +20% guys are exhibiting fear of the unknown.
It'll take more than a few years for me to see if the savings are justified, but our health dept sure is sold. And my septic guy is by far the best I've encountered. Your health dept. requires the same size leach field for both systems? If not, your Infiltrator contractors are making a very nice profit indeed. Or your stone's substantially less expensive than ours. What does a typical 3br system cost?
Compaction fear makes little sense. A crawler would solve that.PAHS Designer/Builder- Bury it!
No, Infiltrators require less lineal footage here as well.If no "problems" are encountered that would require speciality systems, a drainfield for a 3br around here is approx. $2800....give or take a few bucks...depending on access to site, etc., etc. 100 lineal ft. of drainfield to the bedroom of conventional trench and rock.IIRC, Infiltrator = 75' lineal to the bedroom..........on 10' centers. Health department likes 'em here, too.Infiltrator wasn't even a viable option with the HD when we put the new ones in on this property about 7 years ago. The old field was 75' of clay tile with about 12" of cover.(lot has the right amount of natural grade in that area) ....and it lasted for something like 40 years. And I mean laid right in the ground with no gravel bed or surround! We did the whole nine yards here. New tank, new fields. I hired the trenches dug and installed the rest myself. (Don't own a backhoe) I'm pretty sure this 300' will outlast me and the DW. Hope so anyway.Edit: That 40 years is to the best of the remembrances of the life-long neighbors in the immediate area. Had to be 25 for sure, I figure.
Knowledge is power, but only if applied in a timely fashion.
Edited 6/8/2005 11:29 pm ET by GOLDHILLER
Checked with the Infiltrator neighbor yesterday and his 3 BR field cost him $3,000. But……..he had a long run from the already situated tank to the location of the new field itself. Something like 120'. Speaking of health departments and what they deem acceptable or not……….there's always those who try to circumvent them and do their drainfield replacements on the sly. One of the more humorous events of such nature I'm familiar with is a friend of mine who also happens to be........(drum roll, please)...... the county zoning administrator. And was at the time of "the incident", as well. Had been in office a year or so.He and his wife bought this lovely old home on the edge of town on a lot with many trees and shrubs on and around the perimeter of the property. A few years later, the septic backs up and the cause is obviously an exhausted drainfield.Knowing full well how persnickety the HD can be about size and placement of the field, the guy decides to sneak the job done himself………..with a spade!! Takes a week off work and begins digging the new trench. Not full width or depth, mind ya. About 75'lineal, maybe. Rock dumped on the drive and then carted to the back yard with a wheelbarrow. On the day he's covering the trench, one of the neighbors who noticed his handywork became suspicious about what it might be and calls the city's HD.Ooooooops. HD swat team arrives on the scene. $500 fine and the embarrassment of having his name plastered in the paper. Had to tear it all out and then meet requirements. I don't think he'll ever live that one down. (Not if I can help it anyway. <G>) Knowledge is power, but only if applied in a timely fashion.
Edited 6/10/2005 10:56 am ET by GOLDHILLER
LOL How does that go... "with fiends [sic] like these who needs enemies"?
My one experience with Infiltrator, which I'd never heard of before, was in our local hamlet. Same septic guy I always recommend. Apparently a little less hungry than your Infiltrator installers. His cost went way down with Infiltrator, he now charges much less than a stone system. Always booked for several months anyway.
Anyhow, as I was buying the property on speculation and at 1 acre, was half the normal size to fit well and septic on, I got the HD out for a pre-purchase permit. They don't like it, but I figured out how to force them into doing it. Inspections are self-supporting so I don't understand the problem, but if you call them and ask, they'll say "no".
Property easily passed, even without the 1/3 less leach area, due to Infiltrator. While the guy, supervisor this time, was there I asked what would happen if the house across the street needed a new leach field. He looked down the hill, scratched his head awhile, and finally said "big problem". Couldn't get anything else out of him. A supervisor even. I don't think he was around when they changed state rules for me about well drilling. Would've been his boss anyhow. Wasn't unpleasant, but I don't always do well with bureaucrats.
Across the road, all the houses are built along a stream. None of them have the prescribed 100' minimum distance. Or have it as a possibility. Every house in the village has historic designation. For all I know they may also all have a pipe straight out of the septic tank into the stream. Not anyplace I'm going to swim.
I've had a couple opportunities to purchase houses on the stream side, but they scare me. When indoor plumbing became popular there were a lot of houses converted that don't really work along current standards. Don't know of the HD ever determining a house uninhabitable, but they'd have to bend the rules immensely to issue a permit. Septic's required here, even if you use a composting crapper (I asked). PAHS Designer/Builder- Bury it!
"Across the road, all the houses are built along a stream. None of them have the prescribed 100' minimum distance. For all I know they may also all have a pipe straight out of the septic tank into the stream. Not anyplace I'm going to swim."Same sorta thing around here, too. I have some close friends whose house lot is literally located on the flood plain along Yellow Creek. (Designation made after the fact although well known for decades before construction….duh.) House is only 50' setback. On the other side of that creek is the large municipal park district. Nice setting, but frequently the spring thaw floods their backyard right up to (and sometimes above) the basement windows. Needless to say, the entire septic system is then under water. (They are then frequent visitors to other peoples' houses for "necessities" and showering, etc.) The basement flooded badly the very first spring after they bought the place and guess who got the call at 2 AM to deal with it. All the checkball drains in the basement failed. We fixed that once we had things dried out.Anyway, their system consisted of two septic tanks in series and then on to the drainfields. Fortunately, the city decided it wise to extend the sewer thru their backyard a few years back and now they poop in there instead of the creek.Out here in the rural areas, there's some farmsteads that still to this day have no drainfields…….just an outlet pipe that eventually dumps its load into a waterway out in the field somewhere. Not so bad really. But there's a few that still outlet into the ditch out in front of the house. Now them thar are easy to spot when conditions are droughty. <G> The county and township road guys know damn well where they are too (and are supposed to report such offenses to the HD), but turn a blind eye. It's the NIMBY principle at work…………in reverse. LOL
Knowledge is power, but only if applied in a timely fashion.
Edited 6/10/2005 11:13 pm ET by GOLDHILLER
Thanks for the info. I'll have to get back to my Health Department guy about these systems. I specifically asked him about the In-Drain system last year. He was unfamiliar, unimpressed and unwilling to allow shorter trenches. I'll see what he says about the Infilitrator and Presby.
The weight issue is a bit of a concern. I don't PLAN on driving anything heavy across the leachfield, but I hate to eliminate the option.
Thanks again!"Listen, strange women lying in ponds distributing swords is no basis for a system of government."Jon
I agree with what you said, but I think you missed one. They are not trash cans, its unbelievable what people will dump down their septic system and wonder why it dosen't work! Lots of luck. [SHIX IS MY BREAD AND BUTTER]
Agreed. The worst offenders seem to be the "city" folk, who buy a second home here, and then wonder why the pans of bacon grease, dirty diapers, and other 'unmentionables', clog up the system. I had a septic guy tell me a story about a failed system that he opened up, and looked in the tank. The effluent was crystal clear and there were hundreds and hundreds of little white squares floating in the tank (maybe 6" or 8" square pieces). Turns out the guy had a couple of infants/babies in the house and was flushing ALL the ALCOHOL-BASED baby wipes down the drain. Alcohol sterilized the tank and killed all the bacteria. All the solids went straight to the leach field. System was less than two years old.
People are never too dumb to flush something they shouldn't, down the crapper. Rule of thumb is, if you didn't eat it, drink it or wash it off yourself, it doesn't belong in the septic tank.
American Standard has a new toilet that they claim you can't clog up. I seen one of their demo tapes on info t.v. and they were flushing things like 8 golf balls down at one time. You know I am not the only one watching this, what do you think the next surprise in the septic system is going to be? Lots of luck.
There is almost nothing that could be found in a septic tank that would surprise me. Especially since state law here now requires access to grade for all new septic tanks. So, if it won't flush, just go outside n' pop the top and toss it in the stinker.
Y' know, I design this stuff for a living, sh!t disposal pays my bills, and I follow all the rules. But there is no way I will allow a cover for my septic tank to be seen at grade in front of my house. I have four kids, one of whom will inevitably decide that the green plastic hatch in the front yard is a good place to explore, or dispose of something they don't want Mom & Dad to see. That WILL BE covered with something, whether it's a big rock, a concrete cover, something your average person can't pick up without a tractor and chain.
Ditto what MSTASK01 said. I still use 3 packs of yeast to 2 cups of warm water, and 1 cup sugar monthly. I usually pump every 5 years, and there is very little sludge in the bottom. I don't run showers, bathtubs, or washing machines into the system. Too much water will kill a system as quick as a garbage disposal.
Under no circumstances should an untrained/unprotected person ever enter a septic tank. Every few years there is a tragic entry where one or more persons are aphixiated due to the lack of oxygen. Sometimes there is a gas present in the the tank that causes the victum to stop breathing after only a couple of breaths, his buddy goes in right behind to rescue only to suffer the same fate. Roger
good comments on aphixiation-
old boss used a shop vac on blower the whole time inside - same thing when diggin' a well by hand. Also, a hard hat is needed as I found out in a well once when one of the kids (DW was hauling up the buckets) threw in a rock!
Thanks to everyone and your insightful comments... i've learned a few things.btw- the system was installed in 84-85. I had it pumped since the previous owner could not remember when/if he ever had it pumped. There was about 4' of 'material' that had to be pumped out. since the house was empty for a couple months before we purchased, it had dried out to the point we had to add water so the vacuum could suck it out. Luckily the crap was below the outlet pipe. the only suggestion outside of the chemicals was that the baffle should be replaced soon, it is starting to fall apart. quoted $100 for replacement.
I would add that one should take what the guy doing the pumping says with a grain of salt.There are plenty of guys out pumping tanks that don't know much.Also, that is an industry that is ripe for guys saying you have more problems than you actually do have.Rich BeckmanAnother day, another tool.
They prefer to be called Turd-ologist! Got mine pumped last month, What a wealth of information I got from the glove-less guy with the hose in one hand & a cig in the other.
LMAO!
Before here, we lived in a rental that hadn't been pumped for the close to 40 yrs the current owner had owned it. Before? No telling. Nobody had any idea where the tank was. Leach field was obvious, and working just fine.
Client had me find a tank a few yrs ago. Hadn't been pumped in 15 yrs. Turned out no reason to pump it when I found it. Looks to me like that 2-5 yrs is a gift to the pumper. Nice, if you're inclined. PAHS Designer/Builder- Bury it!
If the leach field was "obvious" it may not have been working "just fine".
If the leach field was "obvious" it may not have been working "just fine".
In areas with little August rain or anywhere after a dry spell, the leach field is a really good indicator. Here in Seattle area, if your leach field shows slightly green grass above where the lines are and all else is brown in late August, it shows your lines are sharing the load both sideways and lengthwise. Ours outlines where the 2 ft wide gravel bed on 4 ft center is perfectly every year, a nice set of 50 ft long 2 ft wide green stripes.
Exactly. And if it's only one small area that shows growth, there's likely a problem. I know of no better way to check the distribution. PAHS Designer/Builder- Bury it!
Exactly the opposite is true around these parts. The area over the trenches is the first place to brown out. This is because the soil over the trenches and fill rock is relatively shallow (24" maximum to 6" minimum). The waste water from the septic tank travels straight down thru the bottom of the trench until that bottom becomes greased/slicked up/impeded…….. so that water cannot readily pass thru and is consequently being forced closer to the surface. Then the absorption begins to take place thru the sides of the trench. Over the years the viable absorption zone moves closer and closer to the surface as the sides of the trenches also exhaust themselves.A green stripe over a trench here during droughty conditions is a sure sign that trouble is on the horizon. Water is closer to the surface than it should be.Minimum distance between trenches is 10' unless circumstances don't allow such and you can get a variance because your soil composition shows the capability to handle the load on closer centers. If this isn't the case, then you are faced with having to install an "alternative" system at a substantially higher cost……..as a rule.Knowledge is power, but only if applied in a timely fashion.
Edited 6/8/2005 11:10 am ET by GOLDHILLER
If this is a "used" home, get the tank pumped right away this summer. For a "new" home wait a year or two.
When the pumper guy is there, ask him how full of sediment the tank was and how long he thinks it should be until the next pumpout. (If he says the sediment was up past the outflow pipe, expect to be doing some repair work right away.)
Generally you'll need to get the tank pumped every 2-4 years.
Don't bother with putting any special s**t into the system. The regular s**t you put in there is more than sufficient to do the job of "innoculating" the tank.
Do studiously avoid putting significant amounts of fat and animal products into the tank. Vegetable products in moderation (what gets scraped/rinsed from a plate after a "tilt off" into the garbage) are OK, as is a little gravy and maybe just that smidgen of meat that sticks to the plate.
Avoid using chlorine bleach in the laundry. Occasional use is probably OK, but more than roughly one load a week is probably not good.
It's OK to have a garbage disposal, so long as you don't use it. ;) That is to say, just use it to grind up the scraped-off stuff -- don't process plate-loads of garbage through it.
Understand what happens: The water and waste flow into the tank. The waste (mostly) sinks to the bottom where it decomposes. This reduces the volume of waste by 10x or more. What doesn't decompose builds up in the tank as sludge.
Tanks usually have two compartments, with a baffle in-between. When the first compartment fills with water (which it should do after a few days/weeks of operation) the water flows over the baffle into the second compartment (which is generally smaller than the first). The second compartment then fills with water until the water is high enough to flow out the outflow pipe and into the laterals. Ideally, just plain water flows over the baffle and into the laterals, but if the first compartment fills with sludge the sludge flows over too.
If the second compartment fills with sludge up to the level of the outflow pipe, then sludge flows into the laterals and clogs them. This is what kills a septic system.
Remember, while a septic system digests MOST waste, a certain percentage is indigestible and will build up over time. This buildup is inevitable, and hence regular pumpouts are MANDITORY to keep the system operating properly.
I'm not a septic person, just someone who has spent a few years living with them.
The others had good advice. Don't put grease down the drain. Don't use a garbage disposal. The reason some folks recommend a pumping every 2-4 years is because a pump job is $150-400, whereas if you let it go and it clogs up your laterals, you're probably going to spend multi thousands of $$ in repairs.
So if its a 'used' system, get it pumped right away as DanH said so that you can get an 'update' from the pumper dude. If he says its in good shape, then maybe 3 or 4 years later have him out there again. At that point you should be able to guesstimate how often to have it pumped. Keeping in mind that sewage usage changes can influence this time frame (if your family goes from 2 to 4 people for instance).
jt8
Failing doesn't make you a failure. Giving up, accepting your failure, refusing to try again does! -- Richard Exely
Edited 6/7/2005 4:43 pm ET by JohnT8
I've heard that anti-bacterial soaps are bad for septic systems ... lots of knowledgeable folks following this thread - any comments?
We use them in the shower and at the kitchen sink, just had our system pumped after 8 years and everything was perfect, so my one data point says no problem.
There's no real point in using anti-bacterial soaps -- they don't improve your health/sanitation, and they can in theory contribute to the development of nastier microbes. But I doubt that the amount used in ordinary bathing is enough to cause septic problems.
Bill
ALL soap is anti-bacterial - that's what is does by its very nature - it kills bacteria.
The "anti-bacterial" soaps sold on the market in nice little containers with little pump handles on them do the same job that a bar of soap does, only at about ten times the price. There is no magic in the liquid.
Your laundry soap is anti-bacterial, the same as your bath soap is, the same as the fancy little pump container by your bathroom sink.
Only other viewpoint I can add is that I learned to be careful about who does your pumping. Like everything else in life some people are dishonest.
Now, I make it a practice to be there when the tank is pumped and make sure all the solids are pumped out of the tank. All because of one contractor in my town, a guy whose family was one of the "founding families" several hundred years ago, was apparently found to be only pumping out the liquid. Seems it cost less to him not to have to pay to empty his truck as often that way.
Sure enough, when I heard that (having just had him pump out my tank several months before his arrest), I had it pumped again and discovered I had a tank nearly half full of solids - not possible in several months when only four people used it.
So, watch what's done when its done. You won't know otherwise.
Jon, hit on a statement that I just want to re-enforce, try not to use solid detergent. This would be powdered lanudry deterents. The make up of powdered detergent is about 50% filler which in most cases is clay. This will not break down, and will accumulate in the tank as "sluge". If you go through a 10-20 pound box a week, which we do, then you are adding 5-10 pounds of clay a week.